HSBC – The story of a good customer with a loan that went to default....

[InformedSearcher]

Hello,

I've added to a few threads regarding HSBC and their 'dictatorial' manner where they believe they as others rule our lives.

I thought maybe to start this thread as I'm sure many can relate to my nightmare of the last month.

 

On 20th January 2009 I got the letter telling me my 'informal' (as I don't have one) overdraft was almost £1,000!

 

I thought, okay, let's sort it all out once and for all.

Easier said than done.

 

I made a Financial Hardship Claim ove the phone.

Really understanding lady who took all details down of income and expenditure.

BTW I already have the 'stayed' claim on the go since almost a year ago.

 

She said they'd call me back later which they did with a 'no'.

 

The eventual reason was high spending in early December 2008.

That happened in fact me spending the money my late mother left me.

 

before I can claim again 13 weeks will have to elapse since their 1st refusal.

 

Okay I thought on the 21st I'd better sort out the loan.

We need to remember at this point of time all payments have been made for December/early January 2009.

 

The lady who spoke to me told me they were still considering my claim and to wait a few days.

I mentioned that it was strange because they refused my claim the day before and she said there must have been some misunderstanding.

I made an immediate 2nd claim which was also refused.

Now the floodgates of the HSBC nightmare.

 

Moving forward just 12 days I start receiving letters from people paid by direct debit telling me 'I've' cancelled them.

It appears that HSBC tell people the payee has cancelled them and not HSBC.

 

That evening I went to the Halifax cashpoint and alas 'Card retained - please contact your issuer' notice appears

and I never even saw the balance.

Okay I have internet banking and knew there was a little cash there.

 

'without' a single word to me they cancelled every direct debit and took my ATM card and feel nothing in so doing calling it 'Risk Limitation'!

Effectively they stopped me being able to get cash at all.

Even the rent went unpaid too!

 

Then the loan letter looms and in the letter it says they can take money from any accounts.

 

currently I'm in the position of being without access to the account except for on line cash payments if any is available.

 

numerous calls later I think I'm going to be given a new card but it's all the 'risk' comments on their part.

No communication whatsoever and certainly not the suggestion of help in any shape or form just a phone number for debt counselling.

 

The moral - Never tell the truth to them, it gets you nowhere.

They are sneaky enough to do things without telling you.

In the end if they don't want to pay you under the hardship fund you might find it pointless to go to the FOS because they will (probably) agree with the bank.

 

I've noticed that the code of conduct (section 14 if I recall) is simply voluntary and they just whizz to the threat part, ignoring the first.

 

I cannot believe that I've now had to go to the council for housing benefits.

I can bet HSBC will cite that as another reason not to allow a claim too.

Michael

[Castlebest]

The moral - Never tell the truth to them, it gets you nowhere. They are sneaky enough to do things without telling you. In the end if they don't want to pay you under the hardship fund you might find it pointless to go to the FOS because they will (probably) agree with the bank. I've noticed that the code of conduct (section 14 if I recall) is simply voluntary and they just whizz to the threat part, ignoring the first.

I cannot believe that I've now had to go to the council for housing benefits. I can bet HSBC will cite that as another reason not to allow a claim too.

Michael

 

Hiya Michael, unfortunately yours is not an uncommon story with HSBC, I've even seen people who have submitted the income and expenditure form showing negative cash flow (because of charges) and HSBC responding that there is plenty of money because they have totally ignored their own payments and charges.

 

They can and will bend the rules or ignore them as and when it suits them and don't forget the first bank to walk away from the banking code was HFC which are part of the HSBC group.

 

Once you get into difficulties with this bank its almost impossible to get out of them again without shutting down your accounts (or trying to because they refuse your instructions), opening a basic account with another bank and taking your cash, bill payment and living expenses away from them because they will carry on plundering your resources until they are out of their reach.

 

Once you have a new account and your cash and day to day living is safe you can address your problems with HSBC and they will have little option but to take you seriously if you have claims in place and / or are making attempts to pay back what you owe even if they say your not paying enough.

 

With the current situation with the OFT, FSA and FOS the only option is to take matters into your own hands, read the threads here and learn and use the relevant consumer law, ask us questions if your not sure and feed the bank as much Cr*p as they try to feed to you.

 

and yes I do speak from personal experience and have total and utter contempt for the way HSBC treat their customers.

 

pete

[InformedSearcher]

why Pete thanks yet again - wise and good words.

Thank you!

 

I have to mention that (I forgot to say) they will only review a hardship claim 3 moths from dismissing the last one and so that means late April in my case! Nightmare to say the least. I hear what you say about basic account - sound prudent so will get on it this week. I have also struck a nerve with them and fast realise they must draw the short straw to speak to me! LOL

Sadly consumer law defeats us in these cases. Everything is in the end voluntary as as stated before the FOS will back whatever they say. Gloves off!

Thanks again

Michael

[citizenB]

Have you started the new claim, IS

[InformedSearcher]

Not yet CitizenB but thanks for jogging my memory. To be honest I kind of think it is a pointless idea. They fob you off, they have a small team who always say 'no' and quite honestly they are trained to 'ignore' most of what you say. Having said that when my 'loan' account gets to 5.9 points I will do it, if only to think that they'll have to alter CRA records which will give so much pleasure and seeing them squirm and look stupid BUT I don't expect any kind of apology.

Michael

[InformedSearcher]

I want this to be seen as what happens and in a true situation you cannot change or stop (unless you get a job that is).

 

We need to turn the clock back to January/February 2009.

 

The funds had gone and HSBC cancelled all the direct debits and Standing Orders.

One night early in February the ATM also took my card.

I called them the next morning and was told that all the D/D’s and S/O’s were cancelled and to help you further they retained my card.

 

Down I went to the financial hardship route but alas my spending in November and December made them give the easy reply that the claim had failed.

I complained and even to their head office.

 

I imagined their CEO sitting there sipping his coffee and his PA calling out ‘we have another one’, laughing.

In reality of course my complaint went to the run of the mill clerical assistant who called up the standard reply

and mail merged it to say they were sorry but there you go and we’ll include a ‘Keeping your finances in Order’ booklet

because we care and are here to help.

 

A 2nd attempt failed and I then gave up.

 

Alas the letter arrived about my £499.25 a month missed loan payment.

In the letterbox were other communications telling me of penalties charged because my direct debits had not been paid.

The downwards spiral had begun in earnest.

Another £150 was charged as their maximum for overdrawn and returned debits all at £25 a throw. – They were swift in that one!

 

We now move on to the occasional calls from The Philippines’ and Malaysia with their rhino skinned attitude.

‘We are here to help you, let’s discuss payment options’.

 

My comments of £60.50 JSA which would end on 21st March 2009 was ignored

. ‘How much will you be paying today’,

‘You are interrupting’ and

‘I am trying to help you but you are not listening or interested’ was bantered often.

 

The level of despair was starting to bite.

Lights at the end of the tunnel we not lighting up and now I’m becoming internationally famous for being ‘Victor Meldrew’ on the phone (but without the income!).

 

The monthly letters with the due amount increasing dropped in and then I realised that there was just no way of stopping the eventual appearance

of the default notice in months to come.

 

‘Go to the Citizens advice bureau or CSS as they will be able to help’,

and I after March when the JSA did stop asked,

‘So if I deal with these organisations are you telling me you will not issue a default notice?’.

 

Of course I knew the answer and their scripts did not deal with that.

More shocking is that I mentioned 8 Cavendish Square which we know is HSBC’s head office.

These people in some shanty hut [sic] in the middle of nowhere had stripped my integrity to bits,

demoralised me and send me on the course to get medical help.

This is not right!

 

The start of May and this time a very nice lady from the UK (hooray!!!) chats with me.

We do and income and expenditure report together.

HSBC’s way of doing them is different but it was not till she uttered, ‘Erm there’s no money is there?’

Oh I must mention since them taking away the cards they reissued them.

 

She told me that she’d ensure they did not try and call for the payments in May or June but on that basis I must (and my wife) be issued w

ith Cash (basic) account cards.

 

This loan is for me alone but the current account is a joint one.

 

Ha! 4th June 2009 and I go on line to pay all the bills

– guess what some idiot has removed 2(!) x £499.25 payments.

 

I call them the next morning and am at a level of anger/sadness/desperation mix never experienced before.

‘Someone manually made the calls for the overdue payments, we are only trying to help you’ was the reply.

 

If I’d loads of hair there would now be none!

‘We will reverse the payments but you understand I’m doing you a favour’ the man said.

 

I listened in disbelief as I’d now realised that no one tells the same story but are all telling me they are helping me and doing me favours!

 

Let’s swiftly move forward,

the calls are infrequent and I’m surprised but the monthly letters do arrive as they should.

We’ve now moved to late July 2009 and I’m told by one that all accounts will be closed once the formal demand is made.

Another tells me that is not so and finally a couple of days ago I learn after I pressured the man who went away to verify that, yes, all accounts will be closed.

 

They probably shot themselves in the foot with that one.

The latest man from Malaysia tells me that offering even £2 a month could alleviate the situation but I know the truth and he as many others lied to me.

 

The 6th August 2009 came and true to their word the default notice arrived.

Formal demand at the end August and then it’ll be over.

I keep eyeing up the prescribed ‘Citalopram’ tablets still unopened in their little box.

Michael

Edited August 7, 2009 by citizenB
formatted for easier reading.

[Castlebest]

Michael did you see the CAB or phone the national debt line?

 

Debt is not a disgrace it was a dream we have been sold and it was a lie.

 

Its not your fault that you have debts, we all have them, we were all sold the same lie and now we are paying.

 

good luck

 

pete

[InformedSearcher]

Michael did you see the CAB or phone the national debt line?

 

Debt is not a disgrace it was a dream we have been sold and it was a lie.

 

Its not your fault that you have debts, we all have them, we were all sold the same lie and now we are paying.

 

good luck

 

pete

 

Pete

I hold my hands up and say no. Where I am the CAB is appointment only and after 5 hours at 15 minute interval tries to hear 'please call back later' made me give up. The reality of all this is that there is 'no' money available currently to service any agreement.

If my previous employers did not make me redundant, and they need not have, things of course would be different. That's life I guess with all its ups and downs.

Michael

[Readalot]

Pete

I hold my hands up and say no. Where I am the CAB is appointment only and after 5 hours at 15 minute interval tries to hear 'please call back later' made me give up. The reality of all this is that there is 'no' money available currently to service any agreement.

If my previous employers did not make me redundant, and they need not have, things of course would be different. That's life I guess with all its ups and downs.

Michael

 

The good news here is that you have found the right place! CAG. Now, relax, cool your emotions and see what you can do about this.

 

I'd say that you have a number of options.

 

1. Contact a reputable debt charity, such as Payplan or CCCS. And discuss it all with them, see if they can help. May be they will manage a DMP for you and you pay off your debt over 10 years.

2. Was your account opened a while ago? pre 2007? pre 2005? if so consider CCA route. HSBC is notorious for not having proper consumer credit agreements. Read this website, there is a lot of information.

3. Default, eventually have your debt sold to DCA, be harassed by DCA wor a while, get taken to court, than worst case scenario is you get CCJ which you pay in instalments or if you lucky they mess it up along the way and lose.

4. Investigate if there was a PPI (mis)sold. Se if anything can be done about it.

5. Investigate all the unfair charges you've been charged over the years and claim it back.

 

Basically, all is not that hopeless and it may look. There are ways to deal with all of this and you are in the right place to get help.

[citizenB]

This is a story I see time and time again on the forums and it sickens me.

 

Unfortunately unless you have over £100 of disposable income then CCCS will be unable to help, other than to assist you in drawing up an income and expenditure form which will of course only tell you what you already know.. there is no money available.

 

HSBC, have their own idea of Income and expenditure.. you have ANY income then the expenditure is expected to be used to pay of loans/credit cards with them and them alone. Forget the inconvenience of requiring to pay your rent/mortgate, utilities and food.

 

If you are unable to make contact with CAB on the phone, then write to them asking for an appointment. Enclose a stamped addressed envelope for their reply.

 

You need to see a Debt advisor not one of their general, allrounders.

 

I see Castlebest has popped in, I will also ask a couple of other HSBC peeps to pop in on you.

[Carningli]

Hi Informed Searcher,

Firstly thank you for having the guts to come here and tell the story as it actually is. Secondly this situation is no fault of either you or your wife. You are quite obviously a worthy citizen who has moral standards and you are not a "won't pay" but due to circumstances beyond your control a "can't pay", there is no dishonour in that.

 

What you do confirm is the hypocrisy of HSBC and their attitude to people suffering financial distress. Coupled with the poor quality of staff they employ. The time has now come when you need to fight them, by outhinking them and their crude methods of recovery. It sounds to me that you have already suffered exhorbitant charges and maladminstration by cancelling all your DD's and SO's' with all the attendant iresponsibility of cancelling insurance arrangements and so on. (I bet they left payment deductions in place to pay themselves and levy further charges). Did they cancel your DD's and SO's without informing you first?. I suggest if you so wish, you go for them (charges) through this Forum, not only to recover charges, but to give yourself a breathing space until the test case is decided.

 

Well done, head up keep battling, there's no need to answer phone calls tell them you will only deal by correspondence. Lastly you may wish to investigate a parachute account, but avoid an HSBC managed loan at all costs.

 

Carningli

[citizenB]

I notice your JSA is to be / has been stopped.. have a look at the following link to see if there is anything else you might be entitled to.

 

Start Calculation

 

BTW, is there any PPI on the loan . I notice you have made two failed attempts for hardship claims.

 

You might also want to start a thread in the following forum

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hardship-applications/

 

and also have a read of the successes in the link below in order to see how others have succeeded.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hardship-applications/206210-hardship-case-successes.html

 

There might be some information contained in the two links above that will help.

Edited August 7, 2009 by citizenB

[InformedSearcher]

Well thank you for the positive comments. Truly appreciated!

No PPI on the loan even after 30 minutes of failed pressure selling.

 

Actually my wife has a CC with HSBC which she pays monthly - That would be the only way to allow over £100 available monies per month but to be honest I really don't want to have her go into default on it.

 

With regards to the hardship applications which would probably be looked on differently now - I wanted to keep that as the possible 'ace' but alas even that would make little impact on the outstanding amount.

 

JSA stopped on March 21st. It seems my wife would be entitled to possibly Tax credits and the wrily housing benefits officer allowed for this when they did their own calculations. Just waiting for a copy pension slip for my wife so we can make the claim.

 

HSBC 'always' do the thing which I find rather underhand. They fet your card in the ATM and also stop D/D's and S/O's then when you go mad advise you the letter has been sent. This is an area where for their logistical beliefs they do not give you warning. By the way 3 days ago my card was (yet again) kept by the ATM and there were funds in the current account. After my call to them they were sending me a new card to replace it. However there's currently all of 11p left as I was also told the account would be closed at the end of the month.

 

Parachute accounts opened with Co-Op (me) and LloydsTSB (joint) with so little hassle I could not believe it! Needless to say housing benefit change of bank details can take upto 3 weeks to process, good heavens knows why.

 

In the end it does matter what you say or do, if you don't make payments to keep the total under 6 points you will be given a default notice and consequential final demand. Not forgetting the CRA's are updating with overdue data being entered. The red boxes just cannot be avoided.

 

HSBC do not cancel their own D/D's as they are their own product (as they told me). It's when you see extra £15 / £10 / £5 here and there for not making D/D payments to say BT, Orange and the like that kind of add to the spiraling debt.

 

Thanks again and I will attempt contacting CAB again even if it is by letter. I somehow do not think HSBC will take me to court, whilst the outstanding amount is substantial it might not be their best route to take but one never knows. As kindly commented in my case it's cannot pay than will not pay. Once I get half decent employment life can return to some kind of normality but until then it remains haphazard. Sadly I doubt I'll scrounge the Road Tax so I guess the poor old car will be applying for a Sorn from DVLA at the end of the month.

 

Michael

[johnnymitch]

Hi Michael , an all too familiar story these days , and as CB says - sickening treatment from HSBC.

 

You have had excellent advice from many sources above so really I can only try to put it in priority order for you .

 

First , as CB says , it is important to get CAB onside - get a letter off to them asking for specialist Advice ....... they should send you an appointment with a Debt Councellor of whom they approve .

 

 

 

Second is to try to find out how much HSBC have screwed you for on illegal charges ... So, a SAR to their Data Protection Unit asking for all your statements , Credit Card Agreements , basically everything they have on you (both Joint and Single accounts ) .

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/48-bank-templates/110--data-protection-act-1998-subject-access-request-

 

 

Then you can put together a claim to get some money back...... This will put the accounts 'In Dispute' which means they can't chase you for them ..... 'breathing space ' as carningli put it.

And of course , if you have a counter-claim heading for court - they won't chase you down that road .

 

Also , write to HSBC , tell them that because of their harassment and the possibility of future court action , you will only deal with them in writing , so that there is a record of all correspondence .

 

Something like : (suitably amended)

 

I am writing in relation to the quantity and frequency of telephone calls that I have received from your company, which I deem to be personally harassing.

I have verbally requested that these stop, but I am still receiving calls. (Delete if necessary)

I now require all further correspondence from your company to be made in writing only. This protects us both in the event of a court case.

I am of the view that your continued harassment of me by telephone puts you in breach of Section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970, and the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

If you continue to harass me by telephone, you will also be in breach of the Communications Act (2003) s.127 and I will report you to OFCOM, Trading Standards and The Office of Fair Trading, meaning that you will be liable to a substantial fine.

Be advised that any further telephone calls from your company will be recorded. (**Even if you don‘t yet have recording equipment!!**)

 

As pete has said IS, it's no shame to be in debt these days , the damn banks have caused a great proportion of it by their own dodgy dealings ..... so don't let it get you down , mate .

 

As always , you know there is further help on here if you need it - you only have to ask .

[johnnymitch]

And of course , if they can't produce a true copy of your Credit Card agreement - it may be unenforceable..... it doesn't go away , but they can't chase you for it or default you - more breathing space .......

[Guest janensteve]

It is important that you nip this in the bud, HSBC use 1st Credit as a DCA and they are the pits, so if you can agree something with HSBC before the case is passed onto 1st Credit i would attempt to do so.

[johnnymitch]

Thanks for the info janensteve ....

 

I have found that HSBC normally use their ' In-house ' DCA - Metropolitan Collection Services , along with their 'In -house Solicitors ' ..(DG )- both of whom are as much use as a chocolate firescreen ....

 

They'll try to intimidate you , or bully you , but if you stand firm you'll be OK ,..... and the golden rule of course Informed Searcher ... ask if you're in doubt ..

[InformedSearcher]

And of course , if they can't produce a true copy of your Credit Card agreement - it may be unenforceable..... it doesn't go away , but they can't chase you for it or default you - more breathing space .......

 

Thanks for the input, sincerely appreciated.

It's a loan account actually - It's (sadly) quite valid. Will do the CAB later today!

Metropolitan Collections will be their route (so they told me).

 

Michael

[citizenB]

IS, I see they have refused to cancel DDs in favour of themselves. Do you have a copy of the Direct Debit that you signed.. should be in amongst the loan paperwork.

 

They cannot refuse to cancel a Direct Debit. I will look for the correspondence I had with them over this issue and post it up tomorrow for you.

[InformedSearcher]

IS, I see they have refused to cancel DDs in favour of themselves. Do you have a copy of the Direct Debit that you signed.. should be in amongst the loan paperwork.

 

They cannot refuse to cancel a Direct Debit. I will look for the correspondence I had with them over this issue and post it up tomorrow for you.

 

 

Thank you! Hmm, I see no direct debt paperwork for the loan.

Michael

[citizenB]

Hi Michael,

 

As I said earlier, HSBC refused to cancel a DD in favour of themselves for a loan on which mis sold PPI had been applied.

 

These were the questions I asked on my own thread . I have copied the relevant posts over, but here is the link to the thread if you wish to read them in context.

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/payment-protection-insurance-ppi/129599-hsbc-has-ppi-been.html

 

OH has a loan with HSBC bank and a direct debit was set up. This is the only item left in the account as a parachute account has been set up.

 

When he got into difficulties he asked the bank to cancel the direct debit which they refused to do thereby applying for the loan payment twice a month which incurrs bank charges both for unauthorised overdraft, bounced debits etc.

 

I have in front of me a 'Direct Debit Guaranteee'.

 

It says:

 

This guarantee is offered by all Banks and Building Societies that take part in the Direct Debit Scheme.

The efficiency and security of the scheme is monitored and protected by your own Bank or Building Society.

If the amounts to be paid or the payment dates chanbe, HSBC bank plc will notify you three working days in advance of yoru account being debited or as otherwise agreed.

If an error is made by HSBC Bank plc or your Bank or Building Society, you are guaranteed a full and immediate refund from your branch of the amount paid.

 

You can cancel a Direct Debit at any time by writing to your Bank or Building Society, please also send a copy of your letter to us.

 

Now I have written to them asking this be cancelled and they are refusing to do so... Can they do this ? are they in breach of their own code ?.

 

This from the FOS.

banking - direct debit guarantee

 

Direct debits are now a major part of daily life, with many people using them each month to pay their household bills. The direct debit guarantee is a powerful safeguard for customers. So it’s important that firms make sure their staff understand its provisions.

Unfortunately, many do not. Here are some of the things firms have told customers (incorrectly) when problems have arisen:

‘We don’t operate the direct debit guarantee.’

‘You’ll have to contact the originating company for a refund.’

‘We need a month’s notice to cancel a direct debit.’

‘The guarantee doesn’t apply – because you haven’t suffered a loss.’

If you pay by standing order, it is up to your bank to send the payment. If you pay by direct debit, it is up to the payee’s bank to call for the payment, but you will rightly look to your own bank/building society to ensure the smooth running of any direct debits. Mistakes and errors are covered by the direct debit guarantee.

The direct debit guarantee applies to all banks and building societies taking part in the direct debit scheme. It says that:

 

 

 

If there is a change in the amount to be paid or the payment date, the person receiving the payment (the originator) must notify the customer in advance.

 

 

 

 

If the originator or the bank/building society makes an error, the customer is guaranteed a full and immediate refund of the amount paid.

 

 

Customers can cancel a direct debit at any time by writing to their bank or building society.

 

 

 

 

This is what you should have somewhere amongst your paperwork. It was on one of the T&C pages they supplied to OH.

 

 

 

I wrote to HSBC's complaints department and advised them that they were in breach of the DD guarantee and if I didnt receive a positive response then I would be taking my complaint to the FSA (having already put in a complaint with the FOS).

 

The speed with which they contacted me was hilarious.. they asked OH to phone.. which he did, advised the poor sod on the other end it was me who had been dealing with everything. Anyway, the DD was eventually cancelled and the charges that had been incurred with the loan payment going in and out of the account twice a month were returned, plus a little extra for the stress etc.

[InformedSearcher]

Heck they relented 'CitizenB' - I must have a swift check back. Their D/D does show up but they only call if there are funds there - I ensure there are none having had that escapade back at the start of June.

The funny thing of the man from Malaysia earlier in the week was the dissection of the bank statement. Why have you paid this and that. 'Erm that might be for rent, council tax, water rates' but I really did not think he knew what I was saying. 'What is this payment in', he asked to my reply of 'Housing Benefit'. I might as well have said anything as I'm quite sure he had no idea that people in the UK pay what they do. It's just so demoralising, frustrating and depressing that your life and privacy is laid open to people you have no knowledge of.

Michael

Edited August 8, 2009 by InformedSearcher

[InformedSearcher]

The latest News - Erm, before you view these links you need to know that the Default notice is invalidt However HSBC (as well as many others) belief that these kind of errors do not apply to them. The normal attitude is that they can persue no matter what! This is what we should all consider to be the benchmark of the average upstanding high street bank!

 

 

 

 

 

Anyone like to commentM

 

Michael

Edited November 3, 2009 by sea-sidelady
personal details left on letters

[Kish4000]

im not expert but in order for them to get a warrant of execution they would have to take you to court and produce the CCA? Also as far as i am aware the court would only appoint a bailif as a last resort i.e if you fail to turn up etc?

 

sounds like scare tactics to me but im not an expert so could someone please confirm?

[citizenB]

 

 

Anyone like to commentM

 

Michael

 

Michael, you have left your name " Dear Mr ...... " on both letters, I have unapproved the post so you can remove.. let me know when you have done that and I will reapprove for you.

 

As Kish has already stated, unless they take you to court and WIN, then they dont stand a hope in hell of getting that Warrant of Execution. What are their legal department on ??