Aplins/Hillesden Securities Ltd (dlc) claimform - old HBOS Credit Card debt -got CCJ but WON CO Hearing

[Shazza50]

Right then, I have read through those other cases and I'm none the wiser and its all still gobbledegook , but I am seriously considering defending this, because it does look as though they are trying it on as they have only sent me a copy of a reservation form and not cca and the t&c's are just a print out, but I'm not sure if they are from when I took the credit card out or later.

First though, I need to ask

1. Is this going to cost me anything?

2. If I lost would I have to pay their costs and would it be a fortune?

[citizenB]

Here's some defences (if the claim is real ) for you to mull over;

 

CL Finance Ltd. Recieved a court claim form**WON** Discontinued

 

Lloyds TSB Credit Card - Claim form received

 

Help! - AMEX No CCA and they've started court action. **DISCONTINUED**

 

You will need to send a CPR request for further information, so including that bit is fine.

 

If you want to acknowledge service (you can't dispute the Court's jurisdiction, so don't) that will buy you more time to read up and get any questions you have answered

 

As it stands, they don't have a case against you, but we need the Court to decide that, not me...

 

Car, those POCs have to be the worst yet ? I dont think you can even use CPR31.14 can you.

 

IMHO, I would go with one of surfaceagentx20's killers as follows.

 

 

In the first instance, acknowledge the claim.

 

Then.. enter the following defence on line.

 

 

Defence

1. The particulars of claim discloses no cause of action and are self evidently an abuse of process, in that they fail to deal with the basic rules of pleading in accordance with the CPR (even allowing for the constraints of the bulk issue system).

2. Further to that above the defendant is unable to plead effectively or at all. The defendant is embarrassed.

 

Make sure you print off a copy of the receipt and the defence you have entered.

 

Send a copy of the defence with a covering letter to the solicitors named on the claim form .. as follows:

 

 

 

Dear Solicitor

Claim Number XXXX

Claimant v Shazza XXXX

Herewith copy defence by way of service, the same having been filed with the court.

 

Please serve amended particulars of claim and plead your client's case in an appropriate manner within 7 days, so that I am aware of the case I will have to meet at trial. I request that you attach to the particulars a copy of the agreement upon which the claimant relies. The matter will be transferred to my home court and the claimant will have to produce the document, in any event. In those circumstances you should plead in accordance with the CPR rather than the Northampton County Court regime.

 

Failure to provide that requested in the time period provided for will result in application to the court. I confirm a copy of this letter will be produced to the court when the question of costs falls to be decided.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Enclosed: Copy of defence filed.

 

 

Send the letter by RM special delivery service, keep the postal receipt and check in a few days that it has been delivered.

 

[car2403]

I'd be applying for a strike out, actually - even defending that claim is acknowledging they have a claim, when they clearly don't

[Shazza50]

I think you have your work cut out here with me:). So, what does a 'strike out' mean?

[car2403]

 

Civil Procedure Rule (aka CPR) 3.4(2)

 

The court may strike out a statement of case if it appears to the court –

(a) that the statement of case discloses no reasonable grounds for bringing or defending the claim;

 

(b) that the statement of case is an abuse of the court’s process or is otherwise likely to obstruct the just disposal of the proceedings; or

 

© that there has been a failure to comply with a rule, practice direction or court order

 

Those particulars of claim are an abuse of the Court's process, as they don't satisfy the Courts rules on particulars - cue CPR Part 16;

 

Contents of the claim form

 

16.2

(1) The claim form must –

(a) contain a concise statement of the nature of the claim;

 

With me now?

 

So, the problem you, as a Defendant has, is that the 'Court' (by 'Court', I mean a real person, like you and me - the Judge) hasn't actually 'seen' this claim yet. The Court doesn't look at claims issued to say, "now, should this be struck out under CPR Part 3.4(2) because it doesn't meet the requirements of CPR Part 16.2(1)(a)?". If only they did! No, what you have to do, is challenge the claim, by applying to the Court (a Judge) and saying that "This claim should be struck out, as per the Court's case management powers outlined in CPR Part 3.4(2), as the claim is an abuse of the Courts process due to not being sufficiently particularised under CPR Part 16.2(1)(a)". You're hoping that a Judge will agree with you and strike the claim out, meaning that you don't have to defend it - there is, in effect, no claim.

 

The more likely outcome is that the Judge (giving the other side as much opportunity to hang themselves as possible, while at the same time being seen to be 'just' and 'fair' to all parties) will probably order them to amend their particulars of claim to satisfy CPR Part 16.2(1)(a) and then for you to have additional time after that to submit a defence.

 

If you don't apply for a strike out, the claim will never be tested.

 

I love doing this, as this all appears so complex on the face of it - "applying for a strike out due to insufficiently particularised particulars of claim" - but once you apply a no-nonsense, common sense, plain English approach to these things, they suddenly become very clear.

 

Now, remind me why us litigants in person pay £150+ an hour for a Solicitor to explain what I just explained to you?!

[Shazza50]

I think its looking a bit clearer now:). What you are saying is that the particulars of claim that they have given is not a good enough reason to make a claim from me?

So my next question, I did warn you about having your work cut out with me;-), how do I go about applying for a strike out?

[car2403]

Take a quick look here for more;

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/data-protection-default-issues/110146-car2403-hfc-bank-default-9.html#post1361381

[Shazza50]

So is this what I put on the form and if so whereabouts,in the defence box? Is this all I need?

 

"The Defendant argues that the Claimants Particulars of Claim is insufficiently stated, as it does not refer to the terms under which the claim is brought concisely and causes issues for the Defendant in he is unsure as to what the case to answer is - therefore the Defendant is unable to Defend the claim properly."

 

"This claim should be struck out, as per the Court's case management powers outlined in CPR Part 3.4(2), as the claim is an abuse of the Courts process due to not being sufficiently particularised under CPR Part 16.2(1)(a)".

[car2403]

Ah, right. You'd need to make an application using form N244 for the strike out request - entering a defence is different

[Shazza50]

I did warn you, I know absolutely nothing.

I am having trouble getting on the website for the N244 form at the minute so I will keep trying.

[Shazza50]

For some reason my computer doesn't like that website, I've tried every which way to get the form and its not playing .

[babybear39]

Call your local county court and ask them to send you a copy.

[Shazza50]

I've managed to get on the website now, but I can't figure out what I am actually applying for and if there is a payment:confused:. I'm beginning to feel really dumb here but I do need as much help as you can give. I understand there is no guarantee but I need to do something to stop them when they are not in the right.

[car2403]

Did you take a look at my link, above? I think I set out what goes in to the N244 in there?

 

If not, give it a bash and post something up so we can comment.

 

Not being harsh, but if I do everything for you, you still won't have a clue what is going on and won't be able to stand up for your case as well if it gets there - at least if you have a go and get something wrong, you'll learn why

[littlebert8]

You will have to pay for an application, unless you are exempt e.g. on benefits etc. I think its £40 for an application without a hearing. The guidance notes on the court service website will tell you. You may be able to have the cost of the application awarded to you as the claim has not yet been allocated to a track. Either way, you will have to pay the fee to the court up-front

 

There are other options though...

 

I think car is correct to say:

...

The more likely outcome is that the Judge (giving the other side as much opportunity to hang themselves as possible, while at the same time being seen to be 'just' and 'fair' to all parties) will probably order them to amend their particulars of claim to satisfy CPR Part 16.2(1)(a) and then for you to have additional time after that to submit a defence.

...

 

I considered making an application myself. However, I took the view that the judge might not look sympathetically on me applying to the court without having at least tried to contact the claimant to resolve the issue - in this case to provide a fully particularised claim.

 

Instead, I wrote to Aplins requesting what I thought I could best expect the judge to order anyway i.e. to provide further information and agree to an extension to the deadline for filing a defence.

 

I did this by way of a letter and a formal Part 18 request. For details see my thread. This way you can ask the questions that you want to tie them down on.

 

They have agreed to an extension and have sent me an interim response to the part 18 request. Once I have the final response I will post it on my thread.

 

I'm not saying that this is the right way of doing it, but it is another option. There is more than one way to skin a cat!

 

car2403 also makes a good point that it wouldn't be good to spoon-feed you all the info. As I've said before, you need to really understand what you are going to do as you might have to explain yourself in front of a judge.

[Shazza50]

I presumed that everything would have to go through the court now. I think I will write to Aplins first and ask them to provide further information, that way it will hopefully give me more time for everything else to sink into my small brain.

Am I right in thinking that I have to request a CPR18?

[car2403]

I'm not saying that this is the right way of doing it, but it is another option. There is more than one way to skin a cat!

 

Definitely! My only problem is that they are the experts here, so a litigant in person shouldn't and isn't expected to know what is/isn't right to do - they are the professionals and they should behave like it.

 

There are no right or wrong ways, though.

 

Oh, and it's more fun to see a Judge give them a hard time than having you do the work for them

 

car2403 also makes a good point that it wouldn't be good to spoon-feed you all the info. As I've said before, you need to really understand what you are going to do as you might have to explain yourself in front of a judge.

 

Don't worry, we'll have Shazza helping others out following this experience, you watch

[Shazza50]

After much reading I am considering going the way of post 68, mainly because I understand it:)

So just to clarify, my defence is basically saying their POC is not giving enough proof that I owe them this money ie no mention of cca.

Am I right in thinking that because they haven't used this in their POC there's a chance they haven't actually got anything substantial?

Do I pay anything for doing it this way? I can't see anything on the forms I received about a fee.

[car2403]

There's no fee for entering a defence

[Shazza50]

When I print off a copy of my defence to send to Aplins, do I print the page that has Defence- Summary & Statement of Truth or just Defence-Summary.

[car2403]

It will need a statement of truth

[Shazza50]

Submit button now pressed, just need to get the letter to their solicitors in the post. I feel really sick now, I just hope they have nothing substantial to come back with.

[Shazza50]

Solicitors received my letter yesterday. I take it the 7 days I've given them starts from then? Will they send the amended POC to me, thats if they have any?

[Shazza50]

http://http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab20/Shazza1957/dlcletter_0.jpg

 

Received this letter today along with another copy of the 'agreement and terms and conditions'. There are also 6 print outs of some statements from 2009, which I have never received from the credit card company. Everyone of them has the same amount owing on them, no interest added and no charges for none payment. There is also some key pages of an Assignment of Debt.

Please advise as to my next step, I was really hoping they wouldn't do this to me.

[Shazza50]

oops just noticed the link isn't working. I'll try again