Marsh Finance - Unethical Advice ?

[Hidden-man]

I have a HP agreement with Marsh Finance which I have had since Feb 02. Payments have been made every month as agreed with the exception of one month (a couple of months ago now) where I contacted them and made an arrangement to split a month over a couple of months.

 

So everything as it should be except last month where I didn't have enough funds in the bank to cover it. I received a letter advising they wanted payment in 7 days or if I couldn't make payment to contact them. I checked with the bank the money hadn't been paid and then contact Marsh last night to make an arrangement.

 

Was told they wanted payment now so I explained I couldn't afford to do that and wanted to see if it could be split over a few months. Was told no and they would want at least £50 so I again said I couldn't afford to do anything until the 20th. I was then told to try and borrow money from family or friends at which I must admit I lost my cool. I told the girl that she was acting illiegelly (not sure if that is right) and she then started back tracking saying it was only her advice and I didn't have to take it.

 

She was adament that they wouldn't wait until 20th as they work on debtor days and last payment from me had been June (correct as I missed July's payment). I told her I would have to cancel my DD as I can't afford to run the risk of them trying to take double payments from me but I would make payment by card. Also advised I would be writing to them with my proposals and will also be highlighting that I made contact within a reasonable timescale of receivinig their letter, have attempted to make a reasonable offer to make payment and they are refusing. I also advised if they went down the legal route my letter would be used as evidence of my intentions to resolve the situation.

 

Hase anybody got any advice for content of the letter ? How should I handle it ? I can't afford double but willing to make an extra £50 per month for 4 months to repay the arrears.

 

Please advise.

 

Thanks in advance

[PGH7447]

an HP agreement since 02, what did you buy

 

cancel the DD, do not give them your card details they will take what they want, write and offer your proposals, if they decline send a cca request to check if the agreement is kosher

[Crocdoc]

If you write to them with your proposals, by the time they respond we will be getting close to the 20th of the month. If they call you in the interim period, simply tell them that you are waiting on a writen response and end the conversation at that.

[Hidden-man]

It was a car purchase via carcraft....Thats another story though..

 

I must admit as its only a couple of weeks away that is what through me I jsut couldn't believe the attitude and when I was told to go an borrow money to pay them my blood pressure I think trebled..

 

Thanks for the advice.

[grange1971]

Might even be worth digging out the original loan agreement and checking it is in order?

[Hidden-man]

Since my first post things have developed further. They called twice yesterday and requested i call back which i did last night.

 

I advised i would not enter in to any conversations on the phone and not to call again. I was told i would keep gettini calls until i pay. I advised i had asked them not to call and if they continued then i would report them to the police for harassment. I was then told they are allowed to call and would i keep gettini calls until i pay.

 

I again told them i would write with my proposals and would also be writing to the oft regarding their breach of debt collection guidelines. I also said i would write to fsa about them being unfit to hold a credit license.

 

I then got a letter today advising that they think our working relationship has come to an end and they are going to register a default. They included a breakdown of money paid and outstanding and stating they want the arrears paying by 22nd. Also states if paid over a third then they can only repo with my consent or with a court order.

 

I can't believe imy far they are going for one months arrears when i have tried to come to an agreement to sort it out.

 

I have found the agreement but i'm going to request of copy they have and see if they can produce it.

 

If i don't sign the letter is that ok or do i have to have some form of signature. Any other suggestions for the letter please shout out. I'm going to write it tomorrow and post monday.

[PGH7447]

correct dont sign the cca request

[Hidden-man]

A bit later than planned but below is the letter I intend to send today. Any advice or suggestions will be gratefully received.

 

Dear Mr XXXX

 

Further to my recent contact with representatives of your company I would like to advise you that you have left me no alternative than to cancel my direct debit.

 

This decision has been reached based on the unprofessional, unethical and possibly illegal activity of members of your staff. If you are not personally aware of my case I would like to provide you with the details in order that you can investigate this matter and provide a response to my concerns.

 

I received a letter from Mr XXX (XXXXX Manager) dated 29th July (received 31st July 2009) advising that the most recent payment had not been made. This letter requested I make payment within 7 days or if unable to clear the arrears then to contact the office.

 

After verifying with my bank that the payment had not been made I contacted your offices on 5th August to make an arrangement to repay the money. I was told I needed to make payment immediately as you worked on debtor days and weren’t willing to wait until the 20th when I would be able to make some form of payment. I advised I was unable to make a payment at that point and wanted the amount split over a number of months to make it easier to repay. I was told this couldn’t be done and to “borrow money from family or friends”. There are at least two breaches of the Office of Fair Trading guidance on debt collection.

 

• Physical / Psychological Harassment
  

2.6 (b) Pressuring debtors to sell property, to raise funds by further borrowing or to extend their borrowing.

 

2.6 (f) Pressurising debtors to pay in full, in unreasonably large instalments, or to increase payments when they are unable to do so.

 

At this point I became extremely angry at being given this advice and told the lady concerned I would be writing at which point she then started to back track and say this was just her advice and I could take it or leave it.

 

I advised I would be cancelling the direct debit as I could not run the risk of your company taking double payments particularly in light of the fact you were unwilling to enter into serious dialogue to resolve the matter.

 

If this was arrears stretching over a number of months or me failing to comply with previous arrangements I may have found this attitude understandable, however considering I had contacted your company within a reasonable amount of time of receiving your letter, making a reasonable offer to repay the arrears I feel the attitude of your company is deplorable.

 

On the 7th August two calls were received form your offices requesting that I call back, which I did later that day. I advised the person answering the phone that I would not enter into any conversations regarding this matter as the company was unwilling to discuss my proposals seriously. I then advised I would be contacting the company in writing and I did not want to receive any more calls and any contact should be made in writing. I was told that until I settled the arrears I would keep getting calls, at which point I advised that if that happened each call would be logged and a complaint would be made to my local police authority for breach of the AdministrationofJusticeAct 1970 (specifically Section 40). I was then told that this wasn’t this wasn’t right and you are allowed to keep calling me until its paid.

 

If you continue to harass me by telephone, you will also be in breach ofthe Protection from Harassment Act 1997, the Communications Act (2003) s.127 and I will report you to OFCOM, Trading Standards and The Office of Fair Trading, meaning that you will be liable to a substantial fine.

 

On the 8th August I then receive a further letter from you which states our working relationship has broken down and you intend to register a default with a credit reference agency.

 

Frankly I am appalled at the behaviour of your company and the intimidating tactics you seem to be employing. I repeat that I contacted your company to resolve this matter and you seem determined to stall and delay any reasonable requests and I now begin to be concerned that is so you can add costs to increase the amount owed. You have charged me £20 for sending a 1st letter requesting payment and I would like to know if this is profit making or to cover costs. If you claim this is to cover costs I would like a breakdown of how you reach this figure and the specific costs incurred.

 

To re-iterate my position, I am unable to repay the arrears in full and I request that the amount is spread over (at least) 4 months in order that I incur no financial hardship. Upon written confirmation that you accept these proposals I will re-instate the direct debit. Based on the attitude and conduct of your staff shown to date I will not make any payment by either debit or credit card. I can’t be sure that you will only take the amount agreed, therefore if you do not provide a response before the next payment is due then this amount will also have to spread over a number of months. Should this happen the length of time to repay the total arrears will need to be doubled (i.e. 8 months) in order that I incur no financial hardship. I feel that your company has been completely unreasonable both with the timescales placed on me and the demands to settle the arrears in full therefore I have been left with no alternative than to take this action.

 

 

As your company has demonstrated a complete lack of regard for guidelines issued by the OFT I require you to provide me with a true copy of the credit agreement relating to the above account, together with any other documentation the Act requires you to provide. If you are unable to comply fully and properly with this request, you should confirm this in writing at the earliest opportunity,

 

I also require a complete statement of the account including all credits, debits and any charges added.

 

To ensure there can be no misunderstanding, you do not have my consent to attempt to take repossession of the goods. If this is your intention you will need to apply for a court order and any court action will be vigorously defended and copy of this letter will be submitted as evidence.

 

I await your response.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PGH7447]

A bit later than planned but below is the letter I intend to send today. Any advice or suggestions will be gratefully received.

Dear Mr XXXX

Further to my recent contact with representatives of your company I would like to advise you that you have left me no alternative than to cancel my direct debit.

This decision has been reached based on the unprofessional, and unethical activity of members of your staff. If you are not personally aware of my case I would like to provide you with the details in order that you can investigate this matter and provide a response to my concerns.

I received a letter from Mr XXX (XXXXX Manager) dated 29th July (received 31st July 2009) advising that the most recent payment had not been made. This letter requested I make payment within 7 days or if unable to clear the arrears then to contact the office.

After verifying with my bank that the payment had not been made I contacted your offices on 5th August to make an arrangement to repay the money. I was informed that I needed to make payment immediately as you worked on "debtor days" and weren’t willing to wait until the 20th when I would be able to make some form of payment. I advised I was unable to make a payment at that point due to other commitments, and requested that the amount be split over a number of months to make it easier to repay. I was informed in no uncertain terms, that this couldn’t be done and to, and I quote “borrow money from family or friends”. Which is a clear breach of the Office of Fair Trading guidance on debt collection.

 

• Physical / Psychological Harassment
  

2.6 (b) Pressuring debtors to sell property, to raise funds by further borrowing or to extend their borrowing.

2.6 (f) Pressurising debtors to pay in full, in unreasonably large instalments, or to increase payments when they are unable to do so.

At this point I became I was dismayed to begiven this advice and told the call center operative concerned I would be writing a formal letter of complaint at these suggestions, at which point she then started to back track and say that "this was just her advice and I could take it or leave it".

I then advised I would be cancelling the direct debit as I could not run the risk of your company taking double payments particularly in light of the fact you were unwilling to enter into any serious dialogue to resolve the matter.

If this was arrears stretching over a number of months or me failing to comply with previous arrangements I may have found this attitude understandable, however considering I had contacted your company within a reasonable amount of time of receiving your letter, making a reasonable offer to repay the arrears I feel the attitude of your company is questionable to say the least and the "advice" given unwaranted.

Further; On the 7th August two calls were received form your offices requesting that I call back, which I did later that day. I advised the person answering the phone that I would not enter into any conversations regarding this matter as the company was unwilling to discuss my proposals seriously.

I then advised I would be contacting the company in writing and I did not want to receive any more calls and any contact should be made in writing. I was then informed that until and I quote "I settled the arrears I would keep getting calls" at which point I advised that if that happened each call would be logged and a complaint would be made to my local police authority for breach of the AdministrationofJusticeAct 1970 (specificallySection 40).

I was then told that this wasn’t this wasn’t right and you are allowed to keep calling me until its paid. - Maybe you should ensure your call centre employees are aware of these acts.

If you continue to harass me by telephone, you will also be in breach ofthe Protection from Harassment Act 1997, the Communications Act (2003) s.127 and I will report you to OFCOM, Trading Standards and The Office of Fair Trading, meaning that you will be liable to a substantial fine.

On the 8th August I then receive a further letter from you which states our working relationship has broken down and you intend to register a default with a credit reference agency. I have yet to recieve a Default Notice, so threatening me with a default is again against OFT guidleines. - delete if not true

Frankly I am somewhat dismayed at the behaviour of your company and the intimidating tactics you seem to be employing. I repeat that I contacted your company to resolve this matter and you seem determined to stall and delay any reasonable requests and I now begin to be concerned that is so you can add costs to increase the amount owed. You have charged me £20 for sending a 1st letter requesting payment and I would like to know if this is profit making or to cover costs. If you claim this is to cover costs I would like a breakdown of how you reach this figure and the specific costs incurred.

To re-iterate my position, I am unable to repay the arrears in full and I request that the amount is spread over (at least) 4 months in order that I incur no financial hardship. Upon written confirmation that you accept these proposals I will re-instate the direct debit.

However based on the attitude and conduct of your staff shown to date I will not make any payment by either debit or credit card. and I will not enter into any verbal dialogue with any memeber of you company and expect all future dialgue to be made by letter/email

As your company has demonstrated a complete lack of regard for guidelines issued by the OFT I require you to provide me with a true copy of the credit agreement relating to the above account, together with any other documentation the Act requires you to provide. If you are unable to comply fully and properly with this request, you should confirm this in writing at the earliest opportunity,

I also require a complete statement of the account including all credits, debits and any charges added.

To ensure there can be no misunderstanding, you do not have my consent to attempt to take repossession of the goods. If this is your intention you will need to apply for a court order and any court action will be vigorously defended and copy of this letter will be submitted as evidence.

I await your response.

Yours sincerely

try this

[Hidden-man]

Letter ammended and was sent a couple of days ago so should be arriving with them today.

 

Thanks for all the help

[littlefatbudha]

If they default you keep the envelope as it may help later !

[Hidden-man]

unfortunately too late i.ve already binned it, however there was no date on it. Both envelopes i.ve recieved have not been date stamped.

[littlefatbudha]

can you post default notice ?

[Hidden-man]

I'm afraid I've not been able to scan the documents / letters but I'm still working on it. In the meantime I have received further letters and now intend to send the following;

 

Dear Mr XXXXXXX

Following my letter dated 9th August and after returning from holiday I find that you have failed to answer my concerns, and yet your company has continued to send me letters and attempted to contact me by phone.

Since writing to you I have received three additional letters as detailed below;

Dated

Contents

From

19/08/09

A copy of an agreement and statement of account

(The copies are currently being reviewed to assess their validity)

XXXXXXXXXX

Complaints / Compliance Manager

22/08/09

Notice of termination

Collections Manager

26/08/09

Arrears Letter

XXXXXXXX

 

Three messages have also received via the telephone even though I made clear in my last letter that I do not wish to be contacted in this way.

As stated in my previous letter I attempted to reach an agreement with your company on the 5th of August and this offer was refused. I have since made an offer in writing and to date I have received no response to that offer. The only response I have received with regards to any of the questions raised was to supply an agreement and statement of account.

To take into account that another months payment has now been missed and that there are now two months arrears, this amount will now need to be split over an 8 month period in order that I do not incur any financial hardship. The direct debit will not be reinstated until I receive written confirmation that you accept my revised offer. Again I would like to highlight that this could have been avoided if you had accepted my original offer on 5th August.

In addition I also require answers to the following;

1. Why are your representatives still trying to reach me by phone when I have specifically asked in writing not to be contacted in this manner?

 

2. Why have you failed to answer the concerns raised in my previous letter?

 

3. Why have my previous offers not been accepted?

 

4. Has the agreement been terminated?

(If so please provide the reasons behind this decision particularly in light of the fact I have made reasonable offers to resolve this situation)

 

5. Are the charges being imposed profit making?

(If not then please provide a breakdown of how the figures are reached and the specific costs incurred)

 

To re-iterate my previous letter and due to your continued action, your company may be in breach of the following;

• Administration of Justice Act 1970 (specifically Section 40)
   
  
  
• Protection from Harassment Act 1997
   
  
  
• Communications Act (2003) s.127
   
  
  

Should you continue in this manner you will leave me with no alternative than to notify the following bodies;

• The Office of Fair Trading (OFT)
   
  
  
• Trading Standards
   
  
  
• Office of Communications (OFCOM)
   
  
  
• Local Police Authority (South Yorkshire Police)
  

If you force me to take this action then copies of all correspondence along with phone logs will be submitted as evidence.

For the avoidance of doubt my revised offer is that the two months arrears are now divided over an eight (8) month period to prevent me incurring any further financial hardship. The direct debit will only be re-instated upon written confirmation that you accept this offer. I require your written confirmation within 14 days of the date of this letter to allow sufficient time for the direct debit to be set up ready for the next payment which is due around the 26th September.

Again I would like to repeat from my previous letter, you do not have my consent to attempt to take repossession of the goods. If this is your intention you will need to apply for a court order and any court action will be vigorously defended and copies of all correspondence along with phone logs will be submitted as evidence.

I await your response.

 

Yours sincerely

XXXXXXXX

[Hidden-man]

Can anybody offer any additional advice / suggestions ?

[littlefatbudha]

You need to scan the default notice and the termination letter, if there are mistakes, these will help you in future.Steve

[havinastella]

You have been paying HP on a car for 'EIGHT' years?????????????????????

 

Can you please in as much detail as possible (without giving personal info about yourself) explain the figures in all this mess!

 

Jogs

[Hidden-man]

sorry my mistake it was feb 07 when the agreement commenced. I got stung on the deal but at the time i needed a new car so accepted it. Although i also got stiffed by carcraft which has just risen up again and is on another thread. I pay £191 per month and payments have been kept apart from one month where i made an arrangement with them in advance to split payment over two months.

 

I have recieved four messages from them today and on two the guy said if i didn't get in touch he would visit my home. I called and told him i would not enter into talks on phone and was writing. He tried to get me to confirm i want them to go legal which i wouldn't. Also advised he is in breach of various by calling me and all would be reported. Also told him i do not want doorstop visit and if that happens will be treated as trespass and police will be called. Told him letter is being sent tomorrow and includes revised offer and how they then proceed is up to them but all letters and calls etc would be used as evidence.

 

Any advice before i post letter tomorrow. I'm going to add details of additional calls and that i do not want home visit. Any suggestions for wording.

[Hidden-man]

Doc's received below. I do have more but it is just their bog standard letters. The ones below are the most recent.

 

Marsh Docs.doc

 

Revised Letter below;

 

Dear Mr XXXSXX

 

Following my letter dated 9th August and after returning from holiday I find that you have failed to answer my concerns, and yet your company has continued to send me letters and attempted to contact me by phone.

 

Since writing to you I have received three additional letters as detailed below;

 

Dated Contents From

 

19/08/09 A copy of an agreement and statement of account

(The copies are currently being reviewed to assess their validity)

 

XXXXXX

Complaints / Compliance Manager

22/08/09

Notice of termination

 

Collections Manager

26/08/09

Arrears Letter

XXXXXX

 

 

Six messages have also been received via the telephone even though I made clear in my last letter that I do not wish to be contacted in this way.

 

Date Time Number called Contact

21/08/09 AM Landline XXXXX

29/08/09 Mobile No Name Provided

02/09/09 11:18 Landline DXXXXX

02/09/09 11:19 Mobile DXXXXX

02/09/09 19:13 Mobile DXXXXX

02/09/09 19:16 Mobile DXXXXX

 

Two of the calls from DXXXX state that if I do not call him back then he will be visiting me at home and I will incur further charges. I am appalled at the intimidating and threatening tactics that are being employed by your staff, even after I have brought this to your attention in my last letter !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I am also being asked to call a mobile number, what next ???? Will you expect me to call a premium rate phone line.

 

Furthermore, should it be your intention to arrange a “doorstep call”, please be advised that under OFT rules, you can only visit me at my home if you make an appointment and I have no wish to make such an appointment with you or your representatives.

 

 

There is only an implied license under English Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions etc (Armstrong v Sheppard & Short Ltd [1959] 2 QB 384 . per Lord Evershed M.R.). Therefore take note that I revoke license under Common Law for you, or your representatives to visit me at my property and, if you do so, you will be liable to damages for a tort of trespass and action will be taken, including but not limited to, police attendance.

 

As stated in my previous letter I attempted to reach an agreement with your company on the 5th of August and this offer was refused. I have since made an offer in writing and to date I have received no response to that offer. The only response I have received with regards to any of the questions raised was to supply an agreement and statement of account.

 

To take into account that another months payment has now been missed and that there are now two months arrears, this amount will now need to be split over an 8 month period in order that I do not incur any financial hardship. The direct debit will not be reinstated until I receive written confirmation that you accept my revised offer. Again I would like to highlight that this could have been avoided if you had accepted my original offer on 5th August.

 

In addition I also require answers to the following;

 

1. Why are your representatives still trying to reach me by phone when I have specifically asked in writing not to be contacted in this manner?

 

 

2. Why have you failed to answer the concerns raised in my previous letter?

 

 

3. Why have my previous offers not been accepted?

 

 

4. Has the agreement been terminated?

(If so please provide the reasons behind this decision particularly in light of the fact I have made reasonable offers to resolve this situation)

 

 

5. Are the charges being imposed profit making?

(If not then please provide a breakdown of how the figures are reached and the specific costs incurred)

6. Why am I now being threatened with visits to my home despite my request that any contact is only made in writing.

 

 

To re-iterate my previous letter and due to your continued action, your company may be in breach of the following;

 

 

• Administration of Justice Act 1970 (specifically Section 40)
   
   
  
• Protection from Harassment Act 1997
   
   
  
• Communications Act (2003) s.127
   
   
  

Should you continue in this manner you will leave me with no alternative than to notify the following bodies;

 

 

• The Office of Fair Trading (OFT)
   
   
  
• Trading Standards
   
   
  
• Office of Communications (OFCOM)
   
   
  
• Local Police Authority (South Yorkshire Police)
  

If you force me to take this action then copies of all correspondence along with phone logs will be submitted as evidence.

 

For the avoidance of doubt my revised offer is that the two months arrears are now divided over an eight ( 8 ) month period to prevent me incurring any further financial hardship. The direct debit will only be re-instated upon written confirmation that you accept this offer. I require your written confirmation within 14 days of the date of this letter to allow sufficient time for the direct debit to be set up ready for the next payment which is due around the 26th September.

 

Again I would like to repeat from my previous letter, you do not have my consent to attempt to take repossession of the goods. If this is your intention you will need to apply for a court order and any court action will be vigorously defended and copies of all correspondence along with phone logs will be submitted as evidence.

 

I await your response.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

 

XXXXXXXX

Edited September 3, 2009 by Hardrivejack

[Hidden-man]

Any advice or suggestions ?

[littlefatbudha]

I would try and find out why , they have included the option to purchase fee (the fee you pay on top of last payment, to purchase the car )has been included into the finance, as far as i know this is wrong, you might not want to purchase the car at the end of the agreement, so why is the fee included in 5+6+7 on agreement.

You might want to find out about this

[Et Contra Pacem Regis]

The Budha is on the right track but not exactly right. Ignore the option to purchase fee - it's unlikely interest has been charged on that as it is paid in a lump sum at the end of the agreement. Ask how the document fee was paid and whether interest was charged on it. It will not be readily possible to work this out because they haven't told you what the nominal rate of interest is - only the "equivalent rate". Knowing what the nominal rate is is important.

There is no explicit statement that any fee has been included in the finance - they are included in the total charge for credit, as they are required to be.

An issue which sometimes arises is that interest *is* charged on some fee or other, in which case it should have been entered into the amount of credit.

[Hidden-man]

Its about 10 days since I sent my last letter and no response to date. I'm now starting to get a bit worried. From bombarding me with letters / calls now nothing ismakinig wonder what they / I should do next.

 

I'm contemplating sending a new letter after the 14 day deadline with a revised offer of all arrears to be added at the end of the agreement (I can't sustain the £50 per month indefinatly so figure thats the best option). Also think if they do take it to court at least I can show I have made numerous offers to resolve the situation and it is them that are being unfair in their methods.

 

My only concern is that that they just turn up and take the car. While in theory they shouldn't do this and I can get all payments back. While I'm chasing the money I've paid I'm without a car and it would make it hard to get to work and would cause further problems.

 

What would you suggest ??????

[Hidden-man]

Any advice ????

[Et Contra Pacem Regis]

How much of this have you paid off? They can't simple seize the vehicle if you've paid off more than 1/3rd - they'd need a court order (there should be a notice to that effect on the agreement). If they do seize the car it doesn't extinguish the debt or rescind the agreement - you'd just be given credit for the current value of the car against the remaining amount due.