Advice re Daughters Accident

[PsychoTony]

I've just spoken to the General Medical Council about this and their published guidance is that "medical professional should always render assistance wherever possible giving due regard to their personal safety, competence and availability of other options" they went on to say that they would alway defend the actions of a medical professional acting in this way and that they would see not helping someone as a worse offence, for which some people have been sued in the past.

 

So the GP was sued for cutting a pair of blood soaked jeans and nicking the skin of someone with a severed artery - b*ll*cks! The GP insurers would make mincemeat out of anyone crass enough to make such a claim against someone who had just saved their life.

 

Psycho Tony - don't be disheartened, some of us can see the point you're making and the Licencing Act 2003 covers this topic as follows :

 

 

The Licensing Act 2003

 

 

 

 

Licensing Objective – Protecting Children From Harm

 

 

 

Children have a right to be protected from harm and the protection of children is everybody’s responsibility

 

The licensed premises should have a written policy in dealing with children or young people who injure themselves, others or damage property.

 

 

 

The policy should identify suitable personnel along with guidance on the most appropriate means of intervention. Staff should be made aware of this policy by the licensee.

 

 

I think they have a duty of care to ensure the public and aspecially children don't come to any harm whilst on their premises

 

Thanks for this rickyd.

 

I will investigate this.

 

I have also come across the RoSPA Standards and Guidelines for Indoor Soft Play Areas and at the bottom it states ALL staff should be trained to deal with accidents.

 

Thanks again for the constructive and helpfull guidance.

[dx100uk]

You are SO missing the point.

 

They did have a duty of care and they exercised it. They sold the coffee to an adult. They did NOT sell it to the 7 year old.

 

Maybe if the mother had exercised the same level of care this would never have happened!

 

Mossy

 

quite correct, the duty of care [under the licensing (serving of alcohol) act 2003 - which i doubt a play area is even part of] only covers the establishment, the negligent actions of their employees & the equipment they provide. a risk assessment would have been carried out for all of the above and PL insurance cover would not have been issued without the process being undertaken & meeting the strict guidlines.

 

i can find no evidence of any 'fun pubs' being required to, nor voluntarily providing, first aid cover, other than where the said employee 'wants' to do so [p'haps the OP might like to offer his services locally outside of his working hours and at weekends.....].

 

if we take this one-step further, every playground, football field, in fact any green area, would need to have such cover inplace.

 

i think there is a system in place for this, erm. it's called dial 999.

 

dx

[PsychoTony]

You are SO missing the point.

 

They did have a duty of care and they exercised it. They sold the coffee to an adult. They did NOT sell it to the 7 year old.

 

Maybe if the mother had exercised the same level of care this would never have happened!

 

Mossy

 

What is your problem?

 

My wife excercised care, the only thing she could have done differently was not buy the coffee! She didn't leave it unattended she was stood there handing out the drinks to the other children and one of them knocked the table which toppled the drink. She could have stood at the counter and demanded a lid, I suppose, or kept the drink in her hand until it was empty or stood there at the counter until it was cold!

 

I think you are the one missing the point, I am trying to find out why Simple First Aid Assistance is not available when it is clearly required.

 

Can you please stop attacking my wife over this! You don't know her, you have never met her or are ever likely to meet her. She is the kindest most wonderfull mother of 7 children. Nothing has ever happend like this in our 20+ years of being parents. A one off accident prompted me to query why First Aid is not a legal requirement in this kind of establishment and you continue to jump down my throat, and also anyone who does get what I am trying to say and do, blaming my wife and ignoring all the points I am trying to make because I got legal advice about legislation re First Aid in Soft Play Areas!

 

I am not blaming anyone, I am not suing or intending to sue anyone.

 

I am simply trying to raise awareness af a matter I find quite serious to the right peoples attention so perhaps this doesn't happen again or at the very least parents are aware that they can expect no First Aid assistance in these places.

[Mossycat]

What is your problem?

 

My wife excercised care, the only thing she could have done differently was not buy the coffee! She didn't leave it unattended she was stood there handing out the drinks to the other children and one of them knocked the table which toppled the drink. She could have stood at the counter and demanded a lid, I suppose, or kept the drink in her hand until it was empty or stood there at the counter until it was cold!

 

I think you are the one missing the point, I am trying to find out why Simple First Aid Assistance is not available when it is clearly required.

 

Can you please stop attacking my wife over this! You don't know her, you have never met her or are ever likely to meet her. She is the kindest most wonderfull mother of 7 children. Nothing has ever happend like this in our 20+ years of being parents. A one off accident prompted me to query why First Aid is not a legal requirement in this kind of establishment and you continue to jump down my throat, and also anyone who does get what I am trying to say and do, blaming my wife and ignoring all the points I am trying to make because I got legal advice about legislation re First Aid in Soft Play Areas!

 

I am not blaming anyone, I am not suing or intending to sue anyone.

 

I am simply trying to raise awareness af a matter I find quite serious to the right peoples attention so perhaps this doesn't happen again or at the very least parents are aware that they can expect no First Aid assistance in these places.

 

 

I don't have a problem. All I have done is point out the facts as you have stated them and what the current legislation is. Because myself and others have pointed out the same thing, and it's not what you wanted to hear you have chosen to take it personally and can see littel beyond that.

 

I was not attacking your wife, if your wife had not put down the coffee cup in an area where young children were running around then this would never have happened. It's as simple as that.

 

Ignorance is no defence, just because you didn't know that it is NOT a legal requirement for First Aid to be available to customers does not mean that everyone else doesn't know the law. I would suggest that awareness of this basic fact is higher than you know.

 

Mossy

[Mossycat]

 

The Licensing Act 2003

 

 

 

 

Licensing Objective – Protecting Children From Harm

 

 

 

Children have a right to be protected from harm and the protection of children is everybody’s responsibility

 

The licensed premises should have a written policy in dealing with children or young people who injure themselves, others or damage property.

 

 

 

The policy should identify suitable personnel along with guidance on the most appropriate means of intervention. Staff should be made aware of this policy by the licensee.

 

 

I think they have a duty of care to ensure the public and aspecially children don't come to any harm whilst on their premises

 

I think you will find that that relates to accidents or injuries that were a direct result of the establishment, and NOT applicable under the circumstances as described by the OP

 

Mossy

[PsychoTony]

quite correct, the duty of care [under the licensing (serving of alcohol) act 2003 - which i doubt a play area is even part of] only covers the establishment, the negligent actions of their employees & the equipment they provide. a risk assessment would have been carried out for all of the above and PL insurance cover would not have been issued without the process being undertaken & meeting the strict guidlines.

 

This particular Soft Play Area is an integral part of the Establishment directly connected to the Public House. Alcoholic Drinks purchased for consuming within the Soft Play Area must be in a plastic glass this would highlight to me that the soft play area is part of the establishment as they have policies governing glasses.

 

i can find no evidence of any 'fun pubs' being required to, nor voluntarily providing, first aid cover, other than where the said employee 'wants' to do so [p'haps the OP might like to offer his services locally outside of his working hours and at weekends.....].

 

This is might point, In my opinion they should be required to provide First Aid cover for the children that are playing in the premises, and on the equipment they provide for them to do so.

[As it happens I have volunteered my FA services previously to various places including giving demonstrations to cubs and scouts etc etc when asked to do so.]

 

if we take this one-step further, every playground, football field, in fact any green area, would need to have such cover in place.

 

i think there is a system in place for this, erm. it's called dial 999.

dx

 

I am talking about an Indoor Soft Play Area designed and provided for the use of children to play in large numbers.

 

Outdoor Areas like the ones you describe would be covered by the the local council or the owners and there are fairly strict legislation about access, permitted use etc etc

But I am not talking about public outdoor playing areas.

 

I am specifically focussed on the fact that Private Indoor Soft Play Areas designed and for the intended use of small children are not legally obliged to provide ANY first aid assistance to an injured child whether the cause is due to an accident or otherwise. I found this completely shocking!

 

In my investigations I was given a number of pointers, and yes those pointers included personal injury lawyers, and also included looking at consumer groups as perhaps there is some legislation governing the supply of hazardous goods in high-risk areas. I am sorry I ever mentioned the IL4U enquiry as this seems to have been a red-rag to a bull to some people despite the fact I declined any further action as I just wanted a legal perspective.

 

All I wanted was some advice about where I should look for guidance as I was going in circles with the my own enquiries. Instead of advice I got slated for asking the questions and trying to get my point across.

[Mossycat]

All I wanted was some advice

 

1) Tell your wife NOT to put down a hot drink and leave it unattended when young children are running around. Hopefully you and she will have learned from this experience.

 

2) Write to your MP, explain why you think that legislation should be in place to provide first aid in establishments. Ask them for their help.

 

Unless and until it becomes law, then there's nothing you can do about it.

 

Mossy

[Mossycat]

 

I am sorry I ever mentioned the IL4U enquiry as this seems to have been a red-rag to a bull to some people despite the fact I declined any further action as I just wanted a legal perspective.

 

 

 

Errr you NEVER had any further action against anyone too decline, there is and was no legal action you could take against anyone (with the possible exception of your wife for negligence).

 

Mossy

[PsychoTony]

1) Tell your wife NOT to put down a hot drink and leave it unattended when young children are running around. Hopefully you and she will have learned from this experience.

 

2) Write to your MP, explain why you think that legislation should be in place to provide first aid in establishments. Ask them for their help.

 

Unless and until it becomes law, then there's nothing you can do about it.

 

Mossy

 

1. I think that goes without saying?

 

2. I have already emailled my local MP this morning after it was mentioned. Thanks anyway, this was the kind of thing I was after originally.

 

Hopefully, if people report these things to the right places legislation will appear and children won't go through unneccessary suffering. I have forwarded details on to RoSPA who are conducting investigations and gathering statistics with regards to accidents in these types of places.

[PsychoTony]

Errr you NEVER had any further action against anyone too decline, there is and was no legal action you could take against anyone (with the possible exception of your wife for negligence).

 

Mossy

 

WTF!! Were you the lawyer who I spoke to? :?

 

He advised that there was no legislation regarding the First Aid issues I had, but as the burn was so severe there was a question about the temperature of the beverage served within the confines of a Childrens Soft Play Area, and I could look to pursue that avenue for compensation. I decided not to.

[rickyd]

I think that Psycho Tony was expressing surprise that no help was available from the establishment. How many of us actually knew there was no obligation to provide first aid for the public before we started on this thread?

 

Surely its just good business practice to help your customers wherever you can?

 

I'm sure both he and his wife regret what happened every single day since the event, so I don't think they need more "you should have known better" comments on here.

 

They're not helpful and reveal unattractive personality traits on what is supposed to be a help forum.

[andie_303]

Wow what a heated debate going on in this thread - i almost daren't add anything but hey here's my 2p

 

I am a first aider and part of the boom business mentioned earlier as a first aid trainer (however I am fully HSE approved and my qualifications are recognised)

 

If this thread is not about compensation and more about ensuring childrens safety in the future perhaps you should be addressing your concerns with the head office of the pub - you should push them to implement a no hot drinks rule within the facility and consider training their staff on first aid (i offer cometitive rates )

 

However as has been pointed out previously, they are not required to provide a first aider - however the First Aid At Work 1981 act states that they should have provision for first aid i.e. a suitably stocked first aid box and an appointed person.

 

Stupidly the appointed person does not have to be first aid trained - they just have to be able to keep the first aid box stocked and know how to report an accident.

 

Have you checked by the way that the accident was logged in the accident book? Just out of interest.

The manager also when he became aware your daughter had been taken to hospital should have reported this to RIDDOR - even if it is after the fact. You can ring them and check if this has happened.

 

If he has reported it to RIDDOR it normally triggers a local authority/EHO visit to make sure of what happened and advise of any measures that should be put in place.

[PsychoTony]

I think that Psycho Tony was expressing surprise that no help was available from the establishment. How many of us actually knew there was no obligation to provide first aid for the public before we started on this thread?

 

Surely its just good business practice to help your customers wherever you can?

 

I'm sure both he and his wife regret what happened every single day since the event, so I don't think they need more "you should have known better" comments on here.

 

They're not helpful and reveal unattractive personality traits on what is supposed to be a help forum.

 

Thanks rickyd, but everyone is allowed an opinion I suppose.

 

My wife is devastated, as she will have to live with the fact that she could have done things differently and saved all the pain and heartache.

 

I am not apportioning blame in any way, shape or form. I am trying to tackle an issue that without the proper First Aid provision these places are a child mortality waiting to happen, if it hasn't already. If I can get this addressed in the right place and legislation is put in place that owners of these establishment have a responsibility to provide First Aid, instead of just taking the money and if something goes wrong at least they won't get sued! They are forced to address the issue and put First Aiders in place then at least I'll know it is less likely for any other children to have to go through what my daughter did.

[PsychoTony]

Thanks to all who have offered advice, including Mossy and DX.

 

I apologise if I have seemed a little defensive, or short with anyone but as you can probably gather this has been a very trying and stressful time for both my wife and myself.

 

I have emailled my MPs

Contacted HSE, CAPT and RoSPA amongst others;)

 

I have written letters to both the Manager of the Pub and the Owning Corporation outlining my concerns that they put the Fear of Litigation and possibly the costs of FA training above customer care.

 

Perhaps I should also offer a suggestion for a poster letting the customers know they won't get First Aid in the event of an accident, something along the lines of:

 

First Aid is not provided on these premises

Uniforms do not guarantee Assistance with accidents

Coffee is served piping hot!

Kindly refrain from spilling as this would be dangerous, but your fault

 

Our First Aid policy does not cover customers

Fear of Litigation prompts this decision

Finally, Have a nice day!

 

(The above is meant in a 'tongue-in-cheek' way )

 

I am going to depart now, before I get any more kickings

 

Cheerio, may the force be with you and I hope none of you ever have to go through anything like this.

[dx100uk]

i can just see the reply from the mp now:

 

why didn't anyone ring 999???

 

we use yours and everyone taxes to setup a system & you dont use it..........

 

ok fun over [if was not just troll]

 

dx

[PsychoTony]

i can just see the reply from the mp now:

 

why didn't anyone ring 999???

 

we use yours and everyone taxes to setup a system & you dont use it..........

 

ok fun over [if was not just troll]

 

dx

 

First reply from my local MP:

 

 

Dear Mr Meese

Although I would ask you to contact Judith Cayzer, the Food Safety Officer who has responsibility for enforcement in commercial premises, she will be on leave shortly and I ask you to contact Chris Gwenlan, Commercial Services Manager on 01934 634504 or e-mail [email protected].

Please keep me informed, as I am most concerned that no help or first aid was given by the staff concerned in a case such as this where A&E had to rush your daughter to Frenchay Child’s Burns Unit.

Yours sincerely

Cllr Dr Kellaway-Marriott

[rickyd]

So we're not the only ones who see this as a concern?

[PsychoTony]

So we're not the only ones who see this as a concern?

 

Thankfully No!

 

I have spoken to somewhere in the region of 15 to 20 local people who use the Pub regularly and every single one of them has expressed shock and concern that no First Aid is offered and they are not legally required to provide it should the worst happen.

 

It looks like it si not just you and me that were unaware of this and had just taken it for granted that our Childrens Welfare is legally safeguarded in this kind of establishment.

[andie_303]

Psychotony - have you contacted RIDDOR to see if this was reported? as in my previous post - the manager should have reported this after he was made aware your daughter had gone to hospital with this injury.

 

That would have (or should have) triggered a local authority or EHO visit who can make good reccomendations and or take enforcement action if they believe the procedures in place are not sufficient.

[PsychoTony]

Psychotony - have you contacted RIDDOR to see if this was reported? as in my previous post - the manager should have reported this after he was made aware your daughter had gone to hospital with this injury.

 

That would have (or should have) triggered a local authority or EHO visit who can make good reccomendations and or take enforcement action if they believe the procedures in place are not sufficient.

 

I have been lodged an enquiry with the HSE already, and am awaiting a reply (Says within 10 working days)

 

I have now also sent another enquiry with regards to the RIDDOR reporting.

 

Thanks Andie.

[PsychoTony]

Reply from 2nd MP:

 

Hi Tony

Thank you for your email. I have forwarded your concerns to the appriopate people and hope to hear from them in the next week..

 

I hope your daughter hasn't suffered and serve scaring.

Regards

Debbie Stone

followed by further email:

Hi Tony

I have had a reply from health and safety and they will respond direct to you.

Please keep me updated on Emma-Lea's developments. However I wish her well and hope she doesn't need further surgery.

Please keep in touch

Debbie

 

Well thats 2 MPs on side so far!

 

[rickyd]

Looks like you're on a roll - hang on in there!

[geoff1248]

Now it would get really interesting if your home insurance enabled your child to sue your wife for negligence..........

[andie_303]

Now it would get really interesting if your home insurance enabled your child to sue your wife for negligence..........

 

Personally I have to judge the usefulness of this comment.

I know we all have opinions and an entitlement to express them however I think the OP has made it clear he is looking to achieve a change in Health and Safety law surrounding the provision of first aid - something that everyone may need at some point in their life so maybe we should all be assisting in this and leave the comments about negligence etc aside.

 

I am sure the OP and his wife feel dreadful about the whole incident - noone wants their child to suffer

[rickyd]

well said!