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Hi All,

 

My daughter was scalded by a spilt cup of coffee, which was purchased inside a 'Fun Pubs' soft play area. She had a 2 day stay in Frenchay Specialist Child Burns Unit including having a general anaesthetic so she could have her wound cleaned and dressed in theatre.

 

Things I found worrying about the whole situation are:

She was not given any First Aid at the scene.:eek:

The coffee was served in a cardboard cup without a lid (Lids are available for these types of cup but was not given or even offered:x)

 

When I spoke to the manager of the Pub he told me that the Owners will not allow the staff to be trained in First Aid as they might get sued if they gave incorrect treatment:eek:. He also said they don't bother with the lids because "Thats just the way they do it":-x

 

I have spoken to an injurylawyers4u lawyer who said that as it was an accident and there is no legislation that First Aid must be provided or that they must provide lids on cups in childrens areas it would be difficult to prove liability, so wasn't interested.

 

Any advice on what to do next would be appreciated.

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you dont say how old your daughter is


PGH7447

 

 

Getting There Slowly

---------

 

Advice is given freely but is in no way meant to be taken as Gospel:-)

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you dont say how old your daughter is

 

My daughter is 7 years Old.

 

My wife took our 3 youngest George (3), Jacob (4) and Millie (7) for a school holiday 'Treat'!

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OK so assuming the coffee was not hers, how did the accident happen, I find it a bit strange that they would serve hot drinks in a childs play area.

 

or that hot drinks were allowed to be taken into the area.

 

you could use the arguament that insufficient consideration was given in serving hot beverages within an area that is meant for children to play


PGH7447

 

 

Getting There Slowly

---------

 

Advice is given freely but is in no way meant to be taken as Gospel:-)

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OK so assuming the coffee was not hers, how did the accident happen, I find it a bit strange that they would serve hot drinks in a childs play area.

 

or that hot drinks were allowed to be taken into the area.

 

you could use the arguament that insufficient consideration was given in serving hot beverages within an area that is meant for children to play

 

The coffee was my Wife's. She purchased the coffee along with drinks for the children. She put the coffee down on the table (Which are situated within the confines of the main play area) along with the childrens drinks. As one of the younger boys passed his brother his drink he clipped the top of the coffee cup and knocked it over. The contents spilled onto and then off the side of the table where my daughter was sitting.

 

 

Ooops forgot to mention, the drinks were purchased directly in the Soft Play Area, they have a bar that serves soft drinks, confectionery and adult hot drinks. If you want an alcoholic drink you have to go through to the main bar and they will serve you but you have to ask for a Plastic Glass as no glass is allowed in the Play Area (Double Standards!!)

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OK so let me get this straight.

 

Your wife bought the coffee, your wife did not ask for a lid even though they were available. Your wife took a hot drink into a childrens play area and put it down on a table. Your wife then left the hot drink unattended in the presence of young children and as a result of all of the above the drink was knocked over and scalded a young child.

 

Obviously it's anyone but your wife who is responsible here, perhaps you could sue the child who knocked over the drink in the first place if you fail to get anyone to sue the Pub.

 

Obviously the pub was in the wrong to sell a cup of hot coffee to a grown woman in the first place and they should now be sued for every penny they have.

 

If none of the above work, try and find out which Company makes the water heater in the pub and go after them for prodcing water that is too hot.

 

Incidents like this really make me angry, an accident occurs, a genuine accident, the most negligent party in the whole chain of events is your wife and yet the first thing you do is get in touch with one of those 'had an accident we'll get you compensation' firms and look to see if you can profit from this.

 

Disgusted is the word

 

You asked for advice, the best advice I can give you is to tell your wife to be more careful with hot drinks around young children

 

Mossy

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OK so let me get this straight.

 

Your wife bought the coffee, your wife did not ask for a lid even though they were available. Your wife took a hot drink into a childrens play area and put it down on a table. Your wife then left the hot drink unattended in the presence of young children and as a result of all of the above the drink was knocked over and scalded a young child.

 

Obviously it's anyone but your wife who is responsible here, perhaps you could sue the child who knocked over the drink in the first place if you fail to get anyone to sue the Pub.

 

Obviously the pub was in the wrong to sell a cup of hot coffee to a grown woman in the first place and they should now be sued for every penny they have.

 

If none of the above work, try and find out which Company makes the water heater in the pub and go after them for prodcing water that is too hot.

 

Incidents like this really make me angry, an accident occurs, a genuine accident, the most negligent party in the whole chain of events is your wife and yet the first thing you do is get in touch with one of those 'had an accident we'll get you compensation' firms and look to see if you can profit from this.

 

Disgusted is the word

 

You asked for advice, the best advice I can give you is to tell your wife to be more careful with hot drinks around young children

 

Mossy

 

First of All, can I point out that I agreed it was an accident.

 

The first thing I did was speak to the Manager of the Pub as my point is that no assistance was given to my wife when the accident occurred, no first aid, which prolonged the suffering of my daughter. I also was querying the lack of availability of the spill resistant lids that are designed to be used with this type of cup.

 

I did not go running off to an ambulance chaser, I made enquiries after I was told from the manager of the pub in question that they had no First Aid and apparantly didn't care that some simple measures could be taken that would limit the risks of this kind of accident. He advised me to take it up with the Parent Company as he already had in the past and they were not interested. He thought maybe they would change their mind with a little consumer persuasion.

 

Do you have children?

If you have, have you taken them to this kind of place?

Were you aware that they did not have to have First Aid?

Would you be happy to take children to a "Fun Pub" that puts the cost of a basic first aid course below child safety?

 

I asked for advice, not to be judged as a money-grabbing ****** which is the inference and tone of your reply!

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,,,,,,,,,

 

dx


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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First of All, can I point out that I agreed it was an accident.

 

The first thing I did was speak to the Manager of the Pub as my point is that no assistance was given to my wife when the accident occurred, no first aid, which prolonged the suffering of my daughter. I also was querying the lack of availability of the spill resistant lids that are designed to be used with this type of cup.

 

I did not go running off to an ambulance chaser, I made enquiries after I was told from the manager of the pub in question that they had no First Aid and apparantly didn't care that some simple measures could be taken that would limit the risks of this kind of accident. He advised me to take it up with the Parent Company as he already had in the past and they were not interested. He thought maybe they would change their mind with a little consumer persuasion.

 

Do you have children?

If you have, have you taken them to this kind of place?

Were you aware that they did not have to have First Aid?

Would you be happy to take children to a "Fun Pub" that puts the cost of a basic first aid course below child safety?

 

I asked for advice, not to be judged as a money-grabbing ****** which is the inference and tone of your reply!

 

Yes it was an accident, the person who contributed MOST to the accident was your wife.

 

There is no onus or compulsion on the pub to provide first aid, they did NOTHING to cause this accident other than sell a hot drink to a grown up and supposedly responsible adult. Had they then administered first aid and got it wrong they would have been negligent and leave themselves open for a law suit.

 

You asked for advice, I gave you advice. Accept this was an accident and tell your wife to be more careful with hot drinks around young children.

 

But because that's not what you want to hear you won't see it as advice.

 

Mossy

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Yes it was an accident, the person who contributed MOST to the accident was your wife.

 

There is no onus or compulsion on the pub to provide first aid, they did NOTHING to cause this accident other than sell a hot drink to a grown up and supposedly responsible adult. Had they then administered first aid and got it wrong they would have been negligent and leave themselves open for a law suit.

 

You asked for advice, I gave you advice. Accept this was an accident and tell your wife to be more careful with hot drinks around young children.

 

But because that's not what you want to hear you won't see it as advice.

 

Mossy

 

We have accepted it as an accident, are not interested in compensation or suing.

 

As a First Aider for 15 years, if you are trained and competent you have nothing to fear about administering first aid, the argument about being sued for getting it wrong should surely also apply to doing nothing!

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,,,,,,,,,

 

dx

 

What did this mean?? sorry new to all this!

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We have accepted it as an accident, are not interested in compensation or suing.

 

As a First Aider for 15 years, if you are trained and competent you have nothing to fear about administering first aid, the argument about being sued for getting it wrong should surely also apply to doing nothing!

 

Sadly that's not the case in todays litigation/look for someone to blame society.

 

Doctors and Nurses are routinely advised not to assist in accidents when they are off duty, the reason behind this is because so many people have sued them for trying to help.

 

If you do nothing you cannot be sued, if you do something then you can be.

 

Mossy

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Sadly that's not the case in todays litigation/look for someone to blame society.

 

Doctors and Nurses are routinely advised not to assist in accidents when they are off duty, the reason behind this is because so many people have sued them for trying to help.

 

If you do nothing you cannot be sued, if you do something then you can be.

 

Mossy

 

In most cases the Good Samaritan Law applies, and you would have to have done something seriously negligent for this to be overruled.

 

As for Doctors and Nurses, most are not trained in General First Aid and would be more likely to try more invasive treatment.

 

I hope you now appreciate my points that as a concerned parent and a First Aider I wish to raise my concerns that no First Aid is available in a High Risk environment where swift action could save the lives of children who are being put at risk. If a child chokes, falls and suffers a spinal/neck injury, has a convulsion etc etc not knowing First Aid means it would be more likely that child would not survive.

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I hope you now appreciate my points that as a concerned parent and a First Aider I wish to raise my concerns that no First Aid is available in a High Risk environment where swift action could save the lives of children who are being put at risk. If a child chokes, falls and suffers a spinal/neck injury, has a convulsion etc etc not knowing First Aid means it would be more likely that child would not survive.

 

Yes of course the first port of call for any concerned parent and First aider is always injurylawyers4u.

 

Don't forget to add on, I'm not interested in the money I just don't want this to happen to someone else.

 

Mossy

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What did this mean?? sorry new to all this!

 

i was going to post

but i thought i'd let it run till i started shift.

 

first aider for 15yrs eh! good on ya!

 

now, the thing here is [and i must compliment mossy on the excellent posts - totally agree],

even if there was a first aider they would have done nothing diff to any member of joe public or your wife or what 999 told whoever on the phone. to do - get it under running water and leave it there. thus i must question - why this was not done?

 

what slightly puzzles me is why such a bad burn was caused by a cup of coffee that needed general? 7yrs old's are pretty hardy & that must have been super super hot water.

 

having trained first aiders for 35yrs now, i can tell you that it is now the norm for areas not to provide first aid. dont need the aggro.

 

the boon business is in training works first aider which i guess you prob are.

 

anyone else would i feel not be making such comments as they know about the issues of joe public and 'plastic' first aiders.

 

dx


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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The Health & Safety (First Aid) regulations 1981 state that employers must provide adequate and appropriate equipment, facilities and personnel to provide first aid for employees at work. It isn't compulsory for this cover to extend to members of the public although it is encouraged.

 

You cannot be prosecuted in Britain for giving first aid providing your intention was to help them. You could be sued but the accuser would not only need to show that injury was caused by the assistance that was rendered, but also that this was intentional rather than accidental. If a medical professional doesn't offer help they could risk being struck off the GMC's register as they are compelled to render assistance wherever they can.

 

I think the pub manager should have shown more understanding and consideration given the circumstances and the owners should be ashamed of themselves given their lack of understanding of the law on first aid. Its a bit like saying we want you to come in and spend your money, but if you hurt yourselves - tough!

 

Mossycat's comments aren't helpful here and are probably borne out of anger from hearing of people who make spurious claims in the hope of getting compensation for being clumsy. I think many of us feel the same, but we do at least read the content of peoples posts before "going off on one". I think that sarcasm rarely helps when someone is genuinely seeking assistance and bitchy comments have a habit of coming back at you.

 

Yours is clearly not just another instance of this kind of thing and I completely see where you're coming from. What I'm not clear on is what you are looking for here?

 

If its simply to highlight the lack of consideration, perhaps a letter to the head office of the pub chain? Maybe someone less directly connected with the incident may be able to see the risk of bad PR here. Failing that, the local paper may provide the arena you are looking for.

 

I'm sure your wife is still angry with herself for letting this happen, but the staff could have done a great deal to reduce the pain and suffering.

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Yes of course the first port of call for any concerned parent and First aider is always injurylawyers4u.

 

Don't forget to add on, I'm not interested in the money I just don't want this to happen to someone else.

 

Mossy

 

As I stated, in another post injurylawyers4u was not my "first port of call":mad:

 

I contacted the manager of the Pub, who said what he said and told me that he agreed with me about the First Aid, as he had raised it previously.

 

I made the enquiry on the legal side so would have more info on any legals and legislation as I am not a lawyer, I am a simple software designer with little or no knowledge of legal matters.

 

As you seem to have already made some assumptions about me, my wife (who by the way is devastated, and blames herself entirely and will never forgive herself if the scarring permanent) I won't bother to explain anything else to you.

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Mossycat's comments aren't helpful here and are probably borne out of anger from hearing of people who make spurious claims in the hope of getting compensation for being clumsy. I think many of us feel the same, but we do at least read the content of peoples posts before "going off on one". I think that sarcasm rarely helps when someone is genuinely seeking assistance and bitchy comments have a habit of coming back at you.

 

 

My comments come from years of dealing with liability claims, if you have read any of my other posts on this forum you would know that I genuinely help people who have genuine claims and are having genuine difficulties.

 

I did read all of the OP's original post, it was evident from that post that the OP had already contacted injurylawyers4u, the firm that advertise on TV saying "We'll get you 100% of the compensation you deserve", so the OP was seeking compensation, the pub were NOT negligent, his wife was.

 

If this landed on my desk as a claim, my reply and attitute would be the same.

 

End of

 

Mossy

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first aider for 15yrs eh! good on ya!

 

now, the thing here is [and i must compliment mossy on the excellent posts - totally agree],

even if there was a first aider they would have done nothing diff to any member of joe public or your wife or what 999 told whoever on the phone. to do - get it under running water and leave it there. thus i must question - why this was not done?

This is exactly what I wanted to know when I called the Pub!

As my wife was panicking, no help was offered from staff or management and the other parents all had different offerings of what to do, including someone smearing sudocrem on one of the blisters, which then burst!!

 

No 999 call was made, until my wife got home with the kids and called me home from work. Luckily I only work 5 mins away and on one look at the injury I dialled 999

 

what slightly puzzles me is why such a bad burn was caused by a cup of coffee that needed general? 7yrs old's are pretty hardy & that must have been super super hot water.

 

It was one of those new fangled coffee machines that you see everywhere now.

 

having trained first aiders for 35yrs now, i can tell you that it is now the norm for areas not to provide first aid. dont need the aggro.

 

the boon business is in training works first aider which i guess you prob are.

 

anyone else would i feel not be making such comments as they know about the issues of joe public and 'plastic' first aiders.

 

dx

 

I am a software designer but have been a First Aider for work for the last 15 years. Originally trained at St Johns, but requalified with The Red Cross last time.

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My comments come from years of dealing with liability claims, if you have read any of my other posts on this forum you would know that I genuinely help people who have genuine claims and are having genuine difficulties.

 

I did read all of the OP's original post, it was evident from that post that the OP had already contacted injurylawyers4u, the firm that advertise on TV saying "We'll get you 100% of the compensation you deserve", so the OP was seeking compensation, the pub were NOT negligent, his wife was.

 

If this landed on my desk as a claim, my reply and attitute would be the same.

 

End of

 

Mossy

 

I stated in my original post that I had spoken to an injurylawyers4u lawyer, and that I agreed with them that this was an accident but was interested in the legal requirements for First Aid provision and the providing of hot drinks within an area designated for children.

 

As I have also stated if it was just money and compo I was after he advised I go down the temperature of the served drink route which has already been succesfully done (MacDonalds). I chose not to pursue that as all I wanted was information on whether there was any legislation requiring First Aid to be available, so I could write to the owning company with some firm information that they should be providing First Aid as I couldn't believe that they don't!

 

I entered my post on here hoping for some further guidance on where I should focus my attention on trying to raise awareness of this serious issue.

 

As a Parent I was unaware that these types of premises are not required by law to provide First Aid if the worst happens. I had assumed that as any business with more than 10 employees has to provide First Aid, this would be the same type of thing for premises who cater for people.

 

Thanks to rickyd for his response, at least he was helpful and not judgemental.

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Mossycat - don't ever apply for a job with the diplomatic corps!

 

physco tony has stated several times that he isn't seeking compensation, and whilst a claims company wouldn't have been my first thought as a source of information, maybe he thought they would know whether or not the pub should have a first aider available.

 

Regarding medical staff not helping for fear of litigation - do you have any evidence of any nurse or doctor being sued for helping an injured person?

 

I called one of my friends, a staff nurse at Glasgow's Southern General Hospital who told me that she carries a full first aid kit in her car and would always try to help if at all possible.

 

She also told me that one of her colleagues famously went to the aid of a motorcyclist he discovered laying unconscious on a dual carriageway. Because of the volume of traffic he took the decision to move him to safety on the hard shoulder before starting his checks for injuries. The poor chap died a couple of days later through multiple injuries and the nurse was cited by the deceased's insurers as being partly to blame for his death because he moved him without a spinal board when he knew he shouldn't have.

 

The nursing union sent a written submission to the court on his behalf saying that although he had known he shouldn't have moved him he felt he was in more danger laying where he was and the court agreed.

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You cannot be prosecuted in Britain for giving first aid providing your intention was to help them.

 

My GP was successfully sued by an accident victim as the doctor had to cut the patients jeans in order to treat his leg, which had an artery slashed in an accident. Blood was pouring everywhere, as you can imagine.

 

In cutting the jeans (in a hurry), the GP nicked the skin of the patient and that is what she got sued for, as well as the jeans.

 

She could, of course, just left him, and she told me of a number of health care professionals who do just that because of litigation.

 

When I was a student nurse, we were told that the first thing to do when you see an accident is let someone else deal with it.

 

Back to topic, I do not see why the OP is complaining against the pub.

 

Not only did your wife act recklessly with this coffee, but she also delayed in getting medical assistance. Why did she not immediately dial 999 herself?


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My GP was successfully sued by an accident victim as the doctor had to cut the patients jeans in order to treat his leg, which had an artery slashed in an accident. Blood was pouring everywhere, as you can imagine.

 

In cutting the jeans (in a hurry), the GP nicked the skin of the patient and that is what she got sued for, as well as the jeans.

 

She could, of course, just left him, and she told me of a number of health care professionals who do just that because of litigation.

 

When I was a student nurse, we were told that the first thing to do when you see an accident is let someone else deal with it.

 

Back to topic, I do not see why the OP is complaining against the pub.

 

Not only did your wife act recklessly with this coffee, but she also delayed in getting medical assistance. Why did she not immediately dial 999 herself?

 

Right, my wife did not act recklessly! She placed her coffee in the middle of the table and it ACCIDENTALLY got spilled. I have never disputed these facts and this is not my point. The facts are simple

1. An ACCIDENT occured

2. Panicking parents do not always act rationally or know what to do

3. No First Aid was available

4. There is no legal requirement to provide Frist Aid

 

As for why she didn't dial 999 immediately, she does not know! In hindsight she agrees she should have got the injury under running water and dialled 999. We all know hindsight is 20/20!!

 

She was totally distraught, panicking and was being bombarded by useless advice from dozens of concerned parents in a packed childrens play area! If a First Aider had been on the scene, they would have been able to act rationally taken charge, and would have got the injury straight under running water to remove the heat from the area and with the extent and severity of the burn they would also have dialled 999.

 

I am not interested in chasing compensation, if I was I could have done so by agreeing for the IL4U lawyer to pursue the temperature of the coffee served!

 

I only spoke to them because I was trying to find info on the web about injuries and legislation and their details kept coming up.

 

I want to find out why places like this are not required by law to provide First Aid cover for the children who PAY to play 'Safely' on their premises!

 

For gods sake, I wish I'd never bothered coming on here! We will not be taking our children to any other place like this without first checking First Aid provision.

 

Have a little think about it, you take your child/children and PAY for them to Play in what you think is a safe environment. For whatever reason, accident or otherwise, one of your children takes a fall or chokes or is knocked unconscious. Could you honestly say that as a distraught parent of a stricken child you could act 100% rationally and know exactly what to do whilst dealing with that stricken child?

 

Wouldn't you want to know why the people who own/run/staff that 'Safe' play area were unwilling to help?

 

Would you be happy to hear 'Sorry we don't want to be sued!'?

 

Ours was a non-fatal accident, but what if!!! And that is the question that keeps going around in my head!

 

What if it had been a neck injury? with no First Aider to take charge who would have stopped a panicking parent from picking up their child?

 

What about choking? They sell hard-boiled sweets so who would take over if it wouldn't come out and the child slipped unconscious?

 

I could go on all day, but I hope you see why I won't let this drop and will be contacting as many places as I need to get this message across. At the very least I wan't parents informed BEFORE they enter these places whether First Aid is or isn't available. That way you can make an informed choice whether you are willing to risk it or not.

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I've just spoken to the General Medical Council about this and their published guidance is that "medical professional should always render assistance wherever possible giving due regard to their personal safety, competence and availability of other options" they went on to say that they would alway defend the actions of a medical professional acting in this way and that they would see not helping someone as a worse offence, for which some people have been sued in the past.

 

So the GP was sued for cutting a pair of blood soaked jeans and nicking the skin of someone with a severed artery - b*ll*cks! The GP insurers would make mincemeat out of anyone crass enough to make such a claim against someone who had just saved their life.

 

Psycho Tony - don't be disheartened, some of us can see the point you're making and the Licencing Act 2003 covers this topic as follows :

 

The Licensing Act 2003

Licensing Objective – Protecting Children From Harm

Children have a right to be protected from harm and the protection of children is everybody’s responsibility

 

The licensed premises should have a written policy in dealing with children or young people who injure themselves, others or damage property.

 

 

 

The policy should identify suitable personnel along with guidance on the most appropriate means of intervention. Staff should be made aware of this policy by the licensee.

 

 

I think they have a duty of care to ensure the public and aspecially children don't come to any harm whilst on their premises

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I think they have a duty of care to ensure the public and aspecially children don't come to any harm whilst on their premises

 

You are SO missing the point.

 

They did have a duty of care and they exercised it. They sold the coffee to an adult. They did NOT sell it to the 7 year old.

 

Maybe if the mother had exercised the same level of care this would never have happened!

 

Mossy

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