helpingfriend vs LLoyds credit card

[helpingfriend]

I sent a CCA request to Lloyds for credit card in June, they failed to respond in 12+2 days so I sent the letter account in dispute.

 

 

They have now sent a letter in response to my CCA request. They have sent an updated agreement (not the original or with signatures), and current terms and conditions.

 

 

In their letter they state:

 

 

By providing you with the documents attached, we have satisfied our obligation to provide you with a copy of the executed agreement under section 78. There is no requirement under the CCA to provide you with a copy of the original signed agreement. We are endeavoring to locate the copy of your signed agreement, but please be assured we would not have opened a credit card account without having sight of a signed agreement.

 

 

Having satisfied our obligation under section 78, the agreement you have with us is fully enforceable and we shall continue to treat is as such.

 

 

Finally, we must remind you that failure to make payments under this agreement will result in collection activities and any default may also be reported to credit reference agencies.

 

 

 

 

Having read lots of threads, do I now send this letter, account in dispute:

 

 

Thank you for your letter of XX/XX/XX, the contents of which have been noted.

You have failed to respond to my legal request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement.

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows:

Section 180(1) (b) authorises, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.” This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

And more importantly:

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document, the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations there under as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

 

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable. I await a true copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the account is still in dispute.

Is the above letter the next one I need to send?

 

 

Thank you

[dx100uk]

you must be clear in what you understand an unenforcable CCA achieves.

it is not some magic bullet that wipes debt away. what it does do however, it does put you in valid non payment situation & a very strong position to offer a very low f&f to finally resolve the matter.

lloyds have failed to supply one within the alloted time frame.

i suggest this might be your next course of action.

 

 

 

tomorrow, next week or next year could see one appear, strike whilst the iron is hot.

 

dx

[helpingfriend]

you must be clear in what you understand an unenforcable CCA achieves.

it is not some magic bullet that wipes debt away. what it does do however, it does put you in valid non payment situation & a very strong position to offer a very low f&f to finally resolve the matter.

lloyds have failed to supply one within the alloted time frame.

i suggest this might be your next course of action.

 

 

 

tomorrow, next week or next year could see one appear, strike whilst the iron is hot.

 

dx

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

I guess I hadn't really thought it all through before. I would be happy to make a f&f offer so that it puts and end to it. But i could do with buying myself some time to save and make an offer against this one. Would it be worth sending the second account in dispute letter perhaps to give me a bit more time?

 

Also, I thought a f&f offer might come in further down the road. I guessed the banks wouldn't consider it at this early stage, but guess I could be wrong?

 

If I send a f&f offer can you suggest a template letter? I've found the one with the f&f offer including satisfied in cra but thought I might need to start the letter along the lines of them not currently having an enforceable CCA.

 

Any help would be welcomed as I'm feeling a bit lost.

 

Thanks

[helpingfriend]

Lloyds are still saying that the current terms & conditions fulfill their obligations for the CCA request. They have now defaulted me on the account.

 

In September I sent a SAR to get sight of all the data and see if they have any agreement at all for this account. I also wanted to get details of a loan account that I think had PPI. After 40 days and I hadn’t received anything at all I sent them a letter giving them a further 14 days to respond. They have now sent some info. There is a copy of an application form for a different credit card but nothing at all for this particular account.

 

Do I continue to pursue this account through the SAR request or start the CPR route?

 

I still need to reply to them anyway under the SAR as there is a lot of information missing.

[helpingfriend]

I still haven't received sight of any agreement for this account. In their last letter they stated:

 

"With regards to executed agreements, these were in pack of information already sent to you."

 

There wasn't any copies of agreements.

 

In the same letter they then state:

 

"Unfortunately, we have not been able to locate a copy of all your signed credit agreements. We can assure you that before we opened your credit card account we would have required sight of a signed agreement"

 

So in the same letter they say they have sent it and don't have it

 

I'm really not sure what else to do now?

 

Do I reply to this letter pointing the discrepancy out? The SAR is now well past the 40 days.

[helpingfriend]

Lloyds have again sent a copy of the application form (below) but this time they have also enclosed a copy of the agreement for the card number prior that this application took over from. They state ' for when this card traded to card ending . . .'

 

Is the old agreement still current even though the card number changed or should there have been a new agreement relevant to this application form?

 

Thanks

 

 

[helpingfriend]

I need to send a reply and would be grateful for an answer to the above.

 

Surely if this is a new account number even though it was a balance transfer there should be a new agreement? They shouldn't be relying on the old agreement?

 

Thanks

[helpingfriend]

bump . . .

 

can somebody please help me so that I can write back to them?

 

Thanks

[JGJ]

helpingfriend,

 

You are not having much assistance/advice with your

 

thread, you need to click on the red triangle on the left of your posts

 

and a site helper will flag it up for attention. Good luck with your

 

endeavours.

 

"EXEMPLO DUCEMUS"

Edited June 19, 2010 by JGJ
Spelling check

[supasnooper]

bump . . .

 

can somebody please help me so that I can write back to them?

 

Thanks

 

 

LTSB are not obligated to send a copy of modifying agreements under s77/78 although they are obliged to do so if they pursue legal proceedings.

 

You could write to LTSB requesting any modifying agreements as a stalling tactic until you are in a position to offer a F & F.

[b1gdave83]

I'm no expert:

 

But that looks like a great reply, They have basically said they can't locate the oringal signed document, if that is the case then they won't be able to provide one in a court

 

''Unfortunately, we have not been able to locate a copy of all your signed credit agreements. We can assure you that before we opened your credit card account we would have required sight of a signed agreement"

[helpingfriend]

LTSB are not obligated to send a copy of modifying agreements under s77/78 although they are obliged to do so if they pursue legal proceedings.

 

You could write to LTSB requesting any modifying agreements as a stalling tactic until you are in a position to offer a F & F.

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

I'm a little confused but guess I've got this wrong. I thought if it was a new account/number they would need to have a new agreement from my reading of this post:

 

credit tokens expire, therefore it would be beneficial imho to find out, if this was a replacement card, as defined within s85 or was this a new agreement with a new credit token and the balance was transfered. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/33174-consumer-credit-act-agreements-848.html

[Craigbadger]

I think that unless you closed the account then re applied for a new account that there will only be the 1 agreement.

[helpingfriend]

I've received a court claim from Lloyds TSB and would appreciate some advice as to what I need to do next. My original thread about this is at:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?212954-helpingfriend-vs-LLoyds-credit-card&p=2994185&highlight=#post2994185

 

Briefly, in response to my CCA request they eventually sent a copy of the application form and a copy of the agreement for the card number prior that this application took over from. They state ' for when this card traded to card ending . . .'

 

Thanks for any help

[AndyOrch]

Firstly you will need to acknowledge the Claim (On Line if from Northampton)

You have 33 days in total 5 deemed served leaves 28 14 to acknowledge and state your intention.

If you defend all then you have a further 14 days to submit a defence.

 

If you can post up or type out the contents of the claimants P.o.C less any identifiable.

 

 

Regards

 

Andy

[helpingfriend]

Thank you Andy for a quick reply.

 

Here's the POC:

 

1. The Claimants are Bankers whose registered office is 25 Gresham Street, London, EC2V 7HN.

2. By an agreement in writing and regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974, the Claimants issued to the Defendant(“the debtor”) a credit-token, Lloyds TSB American Express Credit Card, to acquire goods and & services on credit.

3. The agreement provided the Bank to send the Debtor a monthly statement showing (i)balance due (ii)minimum payment (iii)date for payment. If the balance was not paid & if the Debtor made the minimum payment, the debtor should pay interest on the remainder of the balance.

4. In breach of the agreement, the Debtor failed to make payment and on DATE Default Notice was issued pursuant to section 87(i) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

5. By letter of DATE from the Bank to the Debtor, the Bank demanded full repayment but the Debtor has failed to repay the monies due.

6. In the premises, the debtor is indebted to the Bank in the sum of **** and the Bank therefore, claims the balance under the Agreement,CARD NUMBER HERE, AMOUNT

[AndyOrch]

Ok I am going to request the original thread be tied here to enable history.

 

 

Andy

[dx100uk]

threads merged

 

dx

siteteam

[AndyOrch]

Thank you DX

 

Andy

[liquidauctions]

Could this be a possible Lloyds taking action before you end up finding something? The first thing to do is work out and submit your defence.

[helpingfriend]

Could this be a possible Lloyds taking action before you end up finding something?

 

Can you explain this piece please? Thanks

[liquidauctions]

Can you explain this piece please? Thanks

 

A last ditch attempt by Lloyds to enforce the debt before you talk your way out of paying by finding mistakes in the SAR

[helpingfriend]

A last ditch attempt by Lloyds to enforce the debt before you talk your way out of paying by finding mistakes in the SAR

 

Thank you for explaining, that helps. Any ideas if there is anything I can still do along these lines?

 

I've been reading lots here and have sent a cpr31.14 to the solicitors to see what information they will be relying upon to help me formulate a defence. Also, have acknowledged claim.

 

Is there anything else I need to be thinking about or doing?

 

Thanks

[liquidauctions]

You should hav done a SAR they are way more comprhensive and can give you a better insight as under the CCA

 

If they have include bank charges they cannot charge interest on this (or in that case any thing other than the credit limit incl insurances) and I have yet to see a single bank that doesnt charge interest on the whole amount owed.

[helpingfriend]

You should hav done a SAR they are way more comprhensive and can give you a better insight as under the CCA

 

If they have include bank charges they cannot charge interest on this (or in that case any thing other than the credit limit incl insurances) and I have yet to see a single bank that doesnt charge interest on the whole amount owed.

 

Yes, I have previously done a SAR.

 

When you say 'If they have include bank charges', as this is a credit card, are you referring to late/missed payment charges?