Paypal Dispute

[PinkTinx]

I sold my nokia n97 through eBay on friday and was contacted by the seller the next day that he would collect the item in person as he lived close, just before collecting he paid the full amount through paypal and all was fine.

The next day, I recieved an email stating that a dispute of the payment was being made and that paypal would hold the money until the dispute was solved. The buyer is claiming that the payment was unauthorised, though he was on the phone at the time of the payment going through!

Now I'm left without my phone and without any money and from what I've read online there is no protection for sellers in this situation, paypal will refund the money to the buyer and that is it.

How am I supposed to get my phone back, it's all so confusing, I can't sleep with worry that I've just been conned out of £400.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Would it be OK for me to contact the buyer and ask why the claim has been made, I can't do anything right this minute as it is almost 4am but will do at a reasonable time.

[hightail]

I'm so sorry but I think you may have been conned. You should never accept Paypal payments for collected items as you have no proof that the buyer has received the item. This is a dreadful game being played out on ebay lately. Ebay insist that sellers accept Paypal but also insist on trackable proof that an item has been received by the buyer. It leaves the unwary open to exactly this sort of [problem].

[andydd]

I'm so sorry but I think you may have been conned. You should never accept Paypal payments for collected items as you have no proof that the buyer has received the item. This is a dreadful game being played out on ebay lately. Ebay insist that sellers accept Paypal but also insist on trackable proof that an item has been received by the buyer. It leaves the unwary open to exactly this sort of [problem].

 

You think that Ebay/Paypal should point out this type of [problem] or at least make a little note under the 'allow buyer to collect' tick box.

Edited August 4, 2009 by andydd

[andydd]

I sold my nokia n97 through eBay on friday and was contacted by the seller the next day that he would collect the item in person as he lived close, just before collecting he paid the full amount through paypal and all was fine.

The next day, I recieved an email stating that a dispute of the payment was being made and that paypal would hold the money until the dispute was solved. The buyer is claiming that the payment was unauthorised, though he was on the phone at the time of the payment going through!

Now I'm left without my phone and without any money and from what I've read online there is no protection for sellers in this situation, paypal will refund the money to the buyer and that is it.

How am I supposed to get my phone back, it's all so confusing, I can't sleep with worry that I've just been conned out of £400.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Would it be OK for me to contact the buyer and ask why the claim has been made, I can't do anything right this minute as it is almost 4am but will do at a reasonable time.

 

Exact same thing happened to me, as the above poster said, never accept Paypal and allow buyer to collect as you have no proof.

 

Luckily for me the PC went a bit wrong and I had to delay things a bit and I removed the money from my Paypal account first, PP then took the money and refunded the buyer leaving me with a minus £200 balance, they have since passed it onto a DCA, but they were seen off quite easily, it appears that PP are very relectant to take court action as they are well aware of how flawed many of their processes are.

 

I' afraid there is no much you can do other than inform the police.

 

I can garantee that if you sell a high costs desireable item like yours at least 1 of the bidders will be trying to perform a [problem].

 

Andy

Edited August 4, 2009 by andydd

[Mrs E Blackadder]

I do quite a bit of buying/selling on eBay and have found that everything now seems to be loaded in favour of the buyer. I too had a dispute with Paypal who seem to just refund the buyer whether you have followed their sellers rules or not. I had posted goods by recorded delivery yet the buyer complained that after just 5 days they had not been received even though the post office don't consider things missing until at least 15 days. Paypal just gave her all her money back, including the postage, despite my proof that the goods had infact been posted. I later found out though sheer chance that the buyer HAD actually received the goods but had not signed for them, leaving the whole system open to abuse and myself out of pocket. This is my long winded way of saying that taking on Paypal is almost pointless and they know it. Communicating with them is very difficult at the best of times. HOWEVER, the one thing that springs to mind with me over your problem is that the buyer seems to have made the dispute somewhat quickly and this might (I stress might) go in your favour. If I have read your facts right, the buyer made the dispute almost as soon as he had paid, inwhich case how could you possibly have had enough time to post the goods to him for him not to receive them. The only other option is that he must have collected the phone in person. It is only a thought, but it might be a point worth making. If you do decide to contact the buyer then make sure you do it through the Paypal dispute as then it is on the record, especially if he chooses not to reply. Also, if he does reply then, again, it will be on the Paypal dispute record. Another option may be to get eBay to do something, after all they do allow you to offer collection in person as an option even though it contradicts the rules set out by Paypal (which of course is owned by eBay.) However, I have always found that they just keep referring you back to Paypal and seem to wash their hands of you once there is a problem. That's if you can find a way of contacting them in the first place! Good luck and fight this as hard as you can - hopefully other people with have more advice to help you.

[buzby]

You think that Ebay/Paypal should point out this type of [problem] or at least make a little note under the 'allow buyer to collect' tick box.

 

They do. They clearly describe that anything paid for by PayPal needs to be SENT by an approved tracked delivery service. It naturally follows that someone calling to collect is NOT a tracked delivery service.

 

As for stating this 'Buyer Collect' it is NOT mandatory, so why should they. The rules of Seller Protection are not anbiguous.

[hightail]

And yet Ebay still insist that a seller MUST offer Paypal as the preferred method of payment even for collection only items. They remove listings which mention the seller will only accept cash on collection and issue non-performing seller strikes against anyone who will not accept Paypal if that's how the buyer wishes to pay. It's an open invitation to [problematic].

[Mrs E Blackadder]

Have been thinking about this one during the day. Andydd is right, you should report it to the police who will be able to give you a crime number. You can then give this number to Paypal as proof that you are serious. Also, I wonder if Trading Standards would be interested - bit of a long shot but worth a try. Another thing you could do is go to your local newspaper who might be interested in doing a story about it. It might not get you your money back, but it could help prevent someone else from getting scammed. I suppose you need to see what happens with your case, but it's just a few ideas there.

[andydd]

They do. They clearly describe that anything paid for by PayPal needs to be SENT by an approved tracked delivery service. It naturally follows that someone calling to collect is NOT a tracked delivery service.

 

As for stating this 'Buyer Collect' it is NOT mandatory, so why should they. The rules of Seller Protection are not anbiguous.

=

They dont obviously point out that using buyer collects is very risky, that is why the [problem] mentioned in this thread is very widespread and common.

 

I too used Paypal for many years and it needed me to be scammed before I wised up to it, thankfully Im not out of pocket, its Paypal who have taken the loss, and rightly so (whatever their T & C' state).

 

Andy

[andydd]

And yet Ebay still insist that a seller MUST offer Paypal as the preferred method of payment even for collection only items. They remove listings which mention the seller will only accept cash on collection and issue non-performing seller strikes against anyone who will not accept Paypal if that's how the buyer wishes to pay. It's an open invitation to [problematic].

 

Exactly, although the buyer collects option can be handy for bulky items, it should in my opinion be removed or carry extra warnings when the box is ticked.

[andydd]

Have been thinking about this one during the day. Andydd is right, you should report it to the police who will be able to give you a crime number. You can then give this number to Paypal as proof that you are serious. Also, I wonder if Trading Standards would be interested - bit of a long shot but worth a try. Another thing you could do is go to your local newspaper who might be interested in doing a story about it. It might not get you your money back, but it could help prevent someone else from getting scammed. I suppose you need to see what happens with your case, but it's just a few ideas there.

 

The Police with paypal do investigate, my local paper recently ran a story of a guy who was performing such scams and an Aladins Cave of goodies was found at his house, (often they are quite dumb and easily traced).

 

Andy

[buzby]

There comes a time we have to take responsibility for our actions. We're already laughingly at the stage were packaging states on a bag of Roasted Salted Peanuts 'may contain nuts' - and my favourite on plastic bags, 'danger of suffocation'. None of these I believe are mandatory, but advisory - but where will it all end? Surely people have a responsibility to think things through from themselves and take responsibility for their actions without looking for someone to blame? If something misleads, then by all means get it resolved, but not simply because a small percentage of folk don't have the ability to work out the possible consequences of their (in)actions?

 

Even assuming there is such copious advisce and warnings, the complaints continue, most recently when a PP dispute failed a seller because he claimed he followed PP advice and sent it 'tracked'. Yet, it is his misunderstanding that tracking equals a signature on delivery. It isn't. There was even a debate that the terms are interchangeable (they're not!). Whatever is sone, there will be those who find fault and wish to 'push the envelope' so their particular problem is addressed and they donlt lose out.

 

It must just be human nature?

[aargh]

request his informaiton on ebay if he lives close...

 

im sure theres away you can get it.. its something like request details all it does is they send you his details, and they get sent yours, but he knows where you live any way.. take him to court or something..

[Mrs E Blackadder]

You should be able to find his address by going to the payment summary. You do this by going to My Ebay, then to items sold. Click on the little blue arrow in the box on the far right which brings up a drop down menu. Click on View Order Details and it will give you the details of your buyer, including their address. Paypal claim that they have checked and verified that the address given is correct, so if your conman has somehow managed to circumnavigate their system then they need to know about it. He could, however, just be a complete thick-head who thinks that you won't or can't find his address, and hopefully you can get him by the short and curlies!!! Good luck.

[Yorky2008]

Get th ebuyer to sign a receipt if they pick something up, even better have their photo taken with the item as they pick it up, cant deny it then!

 

Yorky

[Annoying Twit]

I can garantee that if you sell a high costs desireable item like yours at least 1 of the bidders will be trying to perform a [problem].

 

And of course those people who are [causing problems] have no intention of actually paying, and can outbid those who have to think more seriously about the sale price.

 

I get my best ebay bargains by waiting until a local "collect in person" auction comes up, and then go pay cash. Probably because of scams like this.

 

Since all this is theft, are the police trying to do anything about it. I have heard, though this was some time ago, that the police weren't very interested in ebay crime, and only pursued the very most flagrant cases.

 

High returns from crime + low risk of being caught = thieve's playground.

[iddles10]

There comes a time we have to take responsibility for our actions. We're already laughingly at the stage were packaging states on a bag of Roasted Salted Peanuts 'may contain nuts' - and my favourite on plastic bags, 'danger of suffocation'. None of these I believe are mandatory, but advisory - but where will it all end? Surely people have a responsibility to think things through from themselves and take responsibility for their actions without looking for someone to blame? If something misleads, then by all means get it resolved, but not simply because a small percentage of folk don't have the ability to work out the possible consequences of their (in)actions?

 

Even assuming there is such copious advisce and warnings, the complaints continue, most recently when a PP dispute failed a seller because he claimed he followed PP advice and sent it 'tracked'. Yet, it is his misunderstanding that tracking equals a signature on delivery. It isn't. There was even a debate that the terms are interchangeable (they're not!). Whatever is sone, there will be those who find fault and wish to 'push the envelope' so their particular problem is addressed and they donlt lose out.

 

It must just be human nature?

 

That's so helpful Buzby - NOT!

 

Next, you'll be blaming mugging victims for carrying too much money. You might as well just say it - "It's your own fault!"

 

PayPal and eBay have proved themselves to be far less than responsible in protecting their users, both sellers and buyers. If they are willing to take a profit from these situations then, like the rest of us in this country, they have a responsibility to protect those that pay for their services.

 

Just washing your hands with consumer rights is not the answer. Wouldn't it be more helpful to suggets that eBay and PayPal, and all the other online trading companies who turn HUGE profits from consumers, make it VERY clear to people where the risks lay whilst using their services? After all, in most cases, it would cost them very little to do so - to flash up warning signs at certain points. It's common knowledge that most people do not have the inclination to read the pages and pages and pages of their various user agreements.

 

Most likely, then, either we become more and more distrusting and trust nobody, or we work toward finding ways to punish the criminals, not the trusting and honest in society.

 

"because a small amount of people do not have the ability to think through the consequences of their actions"?

 

So, we all should change our ways to accommodate the criminal behaviour of a small number of people in society and the websites that make it much easier for them to steal from others? We are already being forced to charge each other more money for postage because these 'lost packages' and thefts occur. That is so obviously a [problem] that eBay and PayPal are enjoying. Do you think that this has something to do with why they actively refuse to help the few who have been victims of obvious theft?

 

They are equally criminals, in my opinion.

Edited August 9, 2009 by iddles10

[buzby]

The truth hurts.

 

As for the mugging victims - well, I cetrainly won't carry wads of cash or be ostentatious in areas that look as if they could be unsafe or compromise safety. Most folk call it 'common sense'.

 

Making HUGE profits is not a crime - expecting them to be charitible when things go wrong is an ideal, but no a 'right'. If you don;t like what they offer, you vode iwth your wallet and purse and go elsewhere.

 

As to the last paragraph - should we change our ways? It you mean becoming more self-aware, then absolutely. That way, other people who are careless become the victims. It's not ideal, but the most pragmatic solution.

[iddles10]

I was also stolen from whilst using PayPal and eBay. When I tried to post a thread warning others about the low level of protection offered by PayPal and eBay on their noticeboards they deleted my posts, saying that I was using the wrong 'code' (eg HTML, C++). In other words, they used a pitiful excuse to delete my criticism of their poor standards.

[iddles10]

What's unrealistic about warning people at the point of sale that no protection exists if someone claims that they haven't received an item and you don't have proof of delivery?

 

What's unrealistic in warning people that even if they do have proof of delivery, then unless there's a signature a refund will automatically be made, OR if someone collects an item then you must have proof that they collected it - at the point of making that agreement - ON EBAY? What's the big problem with eBay taking that action as part of their responsibility to the customers from whom they make HUGE profits? What's the big issue?

 

They don't. And because they don't people are still being conned. And in your opinion Buzby, that's their own fault and they should stop griping, it seems.

 

Also - "The truth hurts"? Are you sure you're a Platinum member? I don't think people come here to listen to handbag titty swipes. And they don't come here to listen to unsympathetic, 'serves-you-right-for-being-stupid' views from so-called experienced members who choose to brown-nose these greedy companies whilst they skank their customers. Consumers enter contracts at varying levels of ability and knowledge, so I think it's fair for eBay and PayPal to protect people as much as they can - not ignore real issues of theft.

 

You've said nothing about this lady's rights under consumer law, although you seem to know PayPal rules a little.

 

Anyone with any real, 'legal' input into this type of transaction?

Edited August 9, 2009 by iddles10

[andydd]

The truth hurts.

 

As for the mugging victims - well, I cetrainly won't carry wads of cash or be ostentatious in areas that look as if they could be unsafe or compromise safety. Most folk call it 'common sense'.

 

Making HUGE profits is not a crime - expecting them to be charitible when things go wrong is an ideal, but no a 'right'. If you don;t like what they offer, you vode iwth your wallet and purse and go elsewhere.

 

As to the last paragraph - should we change our ways? It you mean becoming more self-aware, then absolutely. That way, other people who are careless become the victims. It's not ideal, but the most pragmatic solution.

 

True..Although there are other auction sites out there, none have the amount of goods carried by ebay and I still use it for both buying and selling however I am now extra careful especially when selling.

 

I note that in some countries such as Oz, Ebay policy of forcing users to offer Paypal has fallen foul of competition laws and isnt allowed it is a pity this isnt the case in europe, maybe they should of concentrated on this instead of the ridiculous MS/Internet explorer case !

 

I still believe that paypal's T&C are flawed in many cases and simply would not stand upto being challanged in court, still it can work in your favour, I have personally gained £350 due to two instances of fraud on my accounts, the 2 dca's chasing this money soon gave up when I started asking for proof and invited them to start court action.

 

Andy