AMEX - have issued claim papers-castella

[citizenB]

Thread started for Castella:)

 

If you need moving to another forum or want a different title, just yell.

[castella]

Hi everyone

Amex have issued claim papers through the court recently.

Subsequently I have issued a CPR 31.14, requesting a true copy of the agreement , the default & termination notices. Amex have asked for 28 days to supply the documentation 'due to the methods of storage any further available documents could take up to 28 days to obtain'

I have sent back the court form stating I am defending the total sum.

I have also sent the court a copy of the CPR 31.14 I sent plus a copy of Amex's reply requesting 28 days & saying they would allow 14 days for me to file my defence after sending the paperwork ref the 31.14 request.

I will post up a copy of the application form which Amex purport is the agreement in a few days or so.

All help very much appreciated. Anyone got any thoughts?

Regards castella

[Monty2007]

Hi everyone

Amex have issued claim papers through the court recently.

Subsequently I have issued a CPR 31.14, requesting a true copy of the agreement , the default & termination notices. Amex have asked for 28 days to supply the documentation 'due to the methods of storage any further available documents could take up to 28 days to obtain'

I have sent back the court form stating I am defending the total sum.

I have also sent the court a copy of the CPR 31.14 I sent plus a copy of Amex's reply requesting 28 days & saying they would allow 14 days for me to file my defence after sending the paperwork ref the 31.14 request.

I will post up a copy of the application form which Amex purport is the agreement in a few days or so.

All help very much appreciated. Anyone got any thoughts?

Regards castella

 

Dear Castella

 

Aproximately when was the account opened?

 

Have you received a Default Notice or a Termination Notice?

 

Can you post up the claim details minus any personal details?

 

You will probably need to submit a holding defence, I assume this is in an English court?

 

Was the calim issued through Brachers?

[citizenB]

Castella, can you please also post up the particulars of the claim.

 

When was the date of issue so we can keep on top of the time line, which is:

 

From date of issue to service = 5 days

from then you have 14 days to acknowledge service of claim

from then you have 14 days to enter a defence.

 

33 days from date of issue:)

 

BTW, I am moving you to legal issues forum

 

Oops, just read your post properly and discover you have the timeline in hand.

[castella]

Hi Monty 2007 thanks for the reply

Account was opened in 05

Default Notice was issued not allowing enough days 'ie :The payment due on your account must be received within fourteen calendar days from the date of this default notice'. -Yes it has been terminated.

Claim details are taken from Amex terms & conditions stating :

2.'the following are expressed terms of the Agreement

3. using the card. 8. Interest charges. 10. Statements & Payments.

11. Default & other charges. 17. Liability & Refunds. 18, Varying & transferring the agreement.

3. on ?? 07 the claimant served a D. N. on the defendant

4. The claimant subsequently terminated the agreement.

5.The defendant incurred charges on the card from 05 to 07.

6. The claimant is entitled to interest on the sum of£???

7. Alternatively the claimant claims interest on the total balance pursuant to s.69 of the County Courts Act1984.

8.And the claimant claims 1.£?? 2. Contractual Int. 3.Further Int. 4.Costs

Yes it is an English Court & No the claim was not via Brachers

I have asked the court to let me know on the filing of a defence.

All assistance greatly appreciated and welcomed

Regards castella

[Monty2007]

Hi Monty 2007 thanks for the reply

Account was opened in 05

Default Notice was issued not allowing enough days 'ie :The payment due on your account must be received within fourteen calendar days from the date of this default notice'. -Yes it has been terminated.

Claim details are taken from Amex terms & conditions stating :

2.'the following are expressed terms of the Agreement

3. using the card. 8. Interest charges. 10. Statements & Payments.

11. Default & other charges. 17. Liability & Refunds. 18, Varying & transferring the agreement.

3. on ?? 07 the claimant served a D. N. on the defendant

4. The claimant subsequently terminated the agreement.

5.The defendant incurred charges on the card from 05 to 07.

6. The claimant is entitled to interest on the sum of£???

7. Alternatively the claimant claims interest on the total balance pursuant to s.69 of the County Courts Act1984.

8.And the claimant claims 1.£?? 2. Contractual Int. 3.Further Int. 4.Costs

Yes it is an English Court & No the claim was not via Brachers

I have asked the court to let me know on the filing of a defence.

All assistance greatly appreciated and welcomed

Regards castella

 

Getting visibility of the Application/Agreement would be useful, did you keep the envolope for the DN.

 

Who issued the Claim if it was not Brachers?

 

Westminster or Mishcon de Reya? They are the usual Amex sols.

[castella]

Hi Monty 2007--It wasn't any of those solicitors you have mentioned I will let you know by pm once I get a little further on if that's okay.

 

I will put on the application form, default notice, and particulars of claim on or before tuesday hopefully (it takes a long time to do it on the computer I have), once photobucket is in tandem with my computer if that's okay.

 

I have the original notice with an amex envelope

 

regards castella

[castella]

Hi citizen B

issue date was 07 July--date of franked mail posting was 14/07/09 from the court, date received was 16 July 09.

Regards castella

[castella]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[castella]

I have posted above the application which Amex state is the agreement you can see it is stamped & signed 4th June 2005. In the statement of claim ,the claim states 'pursuant to an agreement dated 22 May 2005 between the claimant & defendant.You will see that the card was first used dated 1st June 2005.(the first statement states 27may to 26 June 2005) which is before the signature and date stamp of the Amex employee.

Has anyone got any thoughts about this and the dates please.

 

Also enclosed is the default notice dated 17 September 07 which gives 14 days from the date of the notice, and also the cancellation notice which is dated 5th October 07.

Also enclosed is the statement during the time of the cancellation which shows a balance of £4800plus.

Also the particulars of claim from amex

All thoughts very much welcomed

Regards castella

[the_shadow]

Nice application....... no prescribed terms on it though :-D cant believe they have havent attempted to show any t&c that supposedly were on the back?

 

Default Notice, you've already spotted no 14 clear days to rectify

 

Sums... dont seem to add up, why the jump from the last statement to the amount on the claim form (before the interest) not their usual file referral fee or something like that?

 

They cant claim stat s69 interest on a regulated agreement claim and not sure if they can claim the contractual interest unless they warn you prior to court claim. Think thats governed in CCA2006 so I'll let someone more knowledgeable confirm that.

 

All in all Amex have cocked up, with a good judge that should get chucked out and you should receive a nice wad of costs.

 

S.

[castella]

Hi everyone

Can anyone please tell me when a credit card agreement actually commences please.(According to the regulations if appropriate).

 

At post 9 in the statement of claim Amex are stating that the purported agreement commenced with the signing of the application form.(22May05)

 

This was prior to acceptance for the card by Amex.

It is clearly on the application form a date stamp of 4 June 05 from Amex.

 

So what would the actual date be, it cannot be the 22 May 05 as is stated in the statement of claim (at post 9 above).

 

All help appreciated

Regards castella

[Monty2007]

Hi everyone

Can anyone please tell me when a credit card agreement actually commences please.(According to the regulations if appropriate).

 

At post 9 in the statement of claim Amex are stating that the purported agreement commenced with the signing of the application form.(22May05)

 

This was prior to acceptance for the card by Amex.

It is clearly on the application form a date stamp of 4 June 05 from Amex.

 

So what would the actual date be, it cannot be the 22 May 05 as is stated in the statement of claim (at post 9 above).

 

All help appreciated

Regards castella

 

Dear Castella

 

The dates are not that important, they can always change their PoC. The key document is the Application form since they are claiming this is an enforcable Agreement, did they send a copy of the back portion?

 

Amex usually just copied the front section and discarded the original without also copying the reverse. BUT not always. The document that you posted does not contain the prescribed terms.

 

The DN also looks to be incorrect since, given service, they have not given you enough time to remedy the alleged default - did you keep the envolope?

 

Your defence should be a standard one, the enforcability of the "Agreement" and the DN. Have a look through the other Amex threads and their defence statements.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Monty2007

[citizenB]

Castella, looks to me as though you have a pretty good defence handed to you by Amex:)

 

When do you have to submit ?

[castella]

Hi everyone

I think that there is some relevance with regards the dates -

the card was first used on the 1st June 05

the signature and date stamp on the application form /purported agreement is 4th June 05.

The card being used prior to the purported agreement being signed and date stamped/executed by Amex.

 

The application form had nothing on the back when sent from Amex.

 

A seperate booklet which stated this is a copy of your agreement for you to keep was sent.

 

This booklet does differ significantly from the Conditions sent by Amex's solicitor several months ago which in turn do differ significantly from the set of cut and paste formulated platinum conditions as included with the particulars of claim, which are illegible, in their attempts to put it all on an A4 sized one page document. (I will not put these on the thread at the moment until after receiving the response to the CPR 31.14)

 

I have requested under a CPR 31.14 details of the agreement, default notice and termination notice.

 

Amex through their solicitors have requested that they need upto 28 days rather than 7 days, to trace the documentation and will give 14 days from service by them of the documents for me to file a defence.

 

I have written to the court with copies of the CPR 31.14 and the claimant's solicitors response requesting more time, and asking do they require me to file a defence within the timescales, or when I receive the responses/paperwork to the CPR31.14.

I have as yet not had a reply from the court, but it is only 6 working days since the letter was sent to them.

 

The claim was issued on the 6th of July 09, but not posted out from the court until the 14th of July and not received until the 16th July.

 

Thanks for all your thoughts and constructive help.

regards Castella.

[castella]

Hi everyone

can someone please confirm when the agreement commences please.

Is it the date when you sign the application form?

Or the date when the application is approved and the credit card company date stamp it and sign it?

Or is it the date they send out the card with the executed agreement copy?

I need to know positively on this as I have to send in my defence which I am formulating at present, early next week --all help greatly appreciated.

Regards castella

[citizenB]

I would say that the contract starts when you have signed the agreement/application.

 

I would think it is irrelevant when you actually start to use the card in that you might have it for say a couple of weeks or even months before you start to use it (hard to believe I know, but possible).

 

It is also irrelevant as to when the document was signed by the creditor as long as it IS signed by both you and them.

 

I am assuming at this point you are putting in a holding/embarrassed defence if you do not have the documents you require ie the DN/TN and agreement .

 

The agreement appears to have no prescribed terms so that is going to be your main attack plan, isnt it ?

 

I wonder if it might be worth raising the timescale on the Claim form. It is quite odd that the date of issue is 6th, and not posted out until the 14th. Do you have the envelope with the date stamp on it ?

[castella]

Hi there everyone

Amex have sent back their replies to the cpr 31.14 request.

amex have attempted to cut and paste some terms and conditions to the back of an application form in a hopeless attempt to conform/comply.

Is this attempt at trying to deceive under the CPR rulles punishable in any way does anyone know please? Its a blatant attempt and does differ considerably from ones already sent and stated to be true copies from Amex via a debt collector etc

All help appreciated

Regards Castella

[the_shadow]

Hi there everyone

Amex have sent back their replies to the cpr 31.14 request.

amex have attempted to cut and paste some terms and conditions to the back of an application form in a hopeless attempt to conform/comply.

Is this attempt at trying to deceive under the CPR rulles punishable in any way does anyone know please? Its a blatant attempt and does differ considerably from ones already sent and stated to be true copies from Amex via a debt collector etc

All help appreciated

Regards Castella

 

In theory the ones sent in response to a CPR 31.14 request should be the ones relied on in court, however thats down to a judge at the end of the day on what they will accept as evidence and how delivered. What is important tho is the true copy ones are different again and as such it should cause confusion on what is the correct agreement/application and do Amex actually know themselves what the real agreement/application looked like at time of signing. Should all strengthen your case in my opinion.

 

S.

[foolishgirl]

 

Amex through their solicitors have requested that they need upto 28 days rather than 7 days, to trace the documentation and will give 14 days from service by them of the documents for me to file a defence.

 

I have written to the court with copies of the CPR 31.14 and the claimant's solicitors response requesting more time, and asking do they require me to file a defence within the timescales, or when I receive the responses/paperwork to the CPR31.14.

I have as yet not had a reply from the court, but it is only 6 working days since the letter was sent to them.

 

 

You have done the right thing by applying to the court re. the extra time allowance & you MUST get the confirmation from the court or put your defence in at the 28 day mark.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if this was a deliberate attempt by Amex to lull you into a false sense of security & then they bang in for SJ on the 28 day mark. Stay alert.

[Alphageek]

It's quite obvious from recent cases that Amex are following up issuing an N1 that is defended with a N244 application for summary judgement.

 

As your N1 was issued on the 7th and not mailed until the 14th, it seems the court of issue is behind on their paper work.

 

I agree that it it imperative that you speak to the court to confirm the possible extension to the date on which your defence should be filed. If you cannot get agreement, then you should enter a holding defence and state you reserve the right to enter an emended version once Amex's solicitors have responded to the 31.14 request.

 

The agreement looks like their usual poor excuse for an enforceable agreement, the DN is true to form with Amex (useless to them) in that it does not allow time for service (CPR 6).

 

So they have terminated on the strength of a useless DN. Therefore they are only allowed to claim the arrears (£232) and you have a counterclaim for unlawful termination.

 

Don't play games with them. They are like a cornered wild animal at the moment (ie, they're dangerous) - you must treat this seriously. There is all the help you could need available here.

 

I would defend and enter my own N244 seeking their claim to be struck out as it shows no prospect of succeeding due to the non-compliant CCA and faulty DN.

[castella]

thanks for that everyone- they have given me two weeks further to put in my defence which has been confirmed by the court.

I will consider your thoughts ref n244-& thanks for your concerns and help

regards castella

[pt2537]

CPR 15.5 allows parties to agree to extend the deadline for filing a defence, the onus is upon the Defendant to notify the court of such arrangement.

 

Requests pursuant to CPR 31.14 can only cover disclosure and inspection of documents actually referred to within the pleadings.

 

Dont forget, despite the fact that it is normal for parties to actually disclose copies or photocopies to be more precise, there is a provision within the rules for you to inspect the original document which the copy is taken from.

 

I have just served a written request on MBNA for a client and they are panicking at the mo, so it can be very helpful

[castella]

thanks for that pt2537- good to have you batting on my side.

 

I have today sent them a further letter -with an apology -but also requesting inspection of the original document.

regards castella

[castella]

Hi everyone

Defence now finished and going in now

Amex under CPR 31.14 have sent further copies of ten pages of terms & conditions in attempted compliance to the CPR 31.14,

so in consequence of their failings:

I will be writing to Amex's solicitors requesting a right to inspect a document, with ref to cpr 31.15 and under 31.14 --a party may inspect a document mentioned in :

(a) a statement of case.

31.15 where a party has a right to inspect a document -

(a) that party must give the party who disclosed the document written notice of his wish to inspect it.

(b) the party who disclosed the document must permit inspection not more than 7 days after the date on which he received the notice.