RBS Visa......debt in dispute

[sythe]

Hi all

 

In January 2008, due to prolonged unemployment, I wrote to RBS to tell them I could no longer keep up with required payments to my Visa card. The account went into default. RBS/DCA refused to accept my reduced payment offer and continued to apply interest to the account after the DN was issued. I complained and referred the matter to the FOS. The FOS have now sent me a letter with a settlement offer. The settlement offer is that RBS will deduct the interest + 8%. That amount will reduce the account balance by about 25%. However due to DCA continuing to pursue the account whilst it was in dispute I have considered making a request for a copy of the original signed credit agreement.

 

Can anyone give me some advice here........should I accept the FOS settlement offer and progress with my credit aggreement request?

 

....also the only income I have is Child Benefit and Tax Credit, how much of that should I be expected to use to pay to the Visa card account?

[cerberusalert]

Can you scan the default notice, remove identifying details & post it up?

 

You should certainly request a CCA to see whether the agreement is enforceable, the a/c is still in dispute until you decide whether to accept or not so the DCA cannot do anything. Did the FOS give you a time-frame to respond in?

[sythe]

Can you scan the default notice, remove identifying details & post it up?

 

You should certainly request a CCA to see whether the agreement is enforceable, the a/c is still in dispute until you decide whether to accept or not so the DCA cannot do anything. Did the FOS give you a time-frame to respond in?

 

 

Hi.........I don't have a scanner..........what is it about the DN that you think is relevant?.......

 

The FOS have given me until 11-August-2009 to sign their acceptance form.......I sent them the following email :

 

"Thank you for your letter Ref. xxxxxxxxxxx, dated 28-July-2009. The contents of which have been noted.

 

I would in principal accept the offer to refund all the default charges + 8% statutory interest.

However I require a response from RBS on a couple of issues. On 02-June-2009 I received a letter from Wescot Credit Services pursuing the account.

That letter is in clear breach of the Consumer Credit Act where it states :

 

UNFAIR BUSINESS PRACTICES

2.5

 

h. ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

 

Therefore I wrote to Wescot Credit Services to complain and request a copy of the original signed credit agreement.

 

I received a letter from Wescot Credit Services dated 31-July-2009 which states that when they sent me the letter, dated 02-June-2009 they were acting on the instruction of their client Royal Bank of Scotland, they also advise that if I wish to request a copy of the signed credit agreement I should write enclosing a £1 fee to:

Royal Bank of Scotland

Consumer Credit Act Request

Cards Customer Care Services

PO Box 5747

Southend on Sea.

 

It is clear that RBS were in breach of the Consumer Credit Act when they instructed Wescot Credit Services to write to me on 02-June-2009 as they were fully aware that the account was in dispute.

 

I will now write to RBS to complain about that and request a copy of the signed credit agreement. Once that matter is resolved and I have to hand the document I require I will be in a better position to sign your settlement form.

 

Your sincerely

xxxxxxxxxxx"

 

I also sent the following email to Wescot:

"Clients: Royal Bank of Scotland

Client Ref No. xxxxxxxxxxx

 

With reference to you letter to me Refxxxxxxxxxxx, dated 31-July-2009, the contents of which have been noted.

 

It is clear from that letter that RBS were in breach of the Consumer Credit Act when they instructed Wescot Credit Services to write to me on 02-June-2009 as they were fully aware that the account was in dispute.

I will now write to RBS to complain about that and request a copy of the signed credit agreement.

Can you therefore please supply to me the contact address of the department of The Royal Bank of Scotland who instructed Wescot Credit Services to write to me on 02-June-2009. Once I receive that address I will consider the matter of my complaint against Wescot Credit Services to be fully resolved."

Edited August 1, 2009 by karenruthj8
spelling

[cerberusalert]

It is Wescott's responsibility to comply with your CCA request;

If it is your view that you are not the creditor, s.175 of the CCA 1974 applies in the case of a simple assignment, and places a duty upon you to pass this request to the creditor. In the case of an absolute assignment, you are a creditor as defined by s.189. If you contend that you purchased the rights but not the duties of any agreement, you are reminded that s.189 of the Act is clear that an assignment is of both rights and duties.

 

The reason I asked about the DN is they must give you 14 days from receipt of the notice to rectify the default, it must be date specific not just say 'fourteen days from the date of this letter'.

[sythe]

It is Wescott's responsibility to comply with your CCA request;

 

 

The reason I asked about the DN is they must give you 14 days from receipt of the notice to rectify the default, it must be date specific not just say 'fourteen days from the date of this letter'.

 

 

I did point out to Wescot that it was their responsability to comply with the CCA request, their reply is that as soon as I made them aware that the account was in dispute the a/c was closed and returned to RBS on 15-June-2009. My CCA request was made to them after that date. So I suppose that makes sense. I will CCA RBS very soon, It seems to me that to sign the FOS acceptance form might somehow adversely affect my position if it should turn out that RBS cannot supply a copy of the original credit agreement......

 

The DN reads as follows :

12 February 008

 

"Account Numberxxxxxxxx

Current Balance:£2,061.25

Credit Limit: £1850.00

Arrears: £70.00

 

We enclose a Default Notice as your account is in arrears and you have exceeded the credit limit.

 

Please read the Default Notice carefully and ensure that a payment is received to either bring the account within the credit limit (211.25) or bring your payments up to date (£70), whichever is the greater. The payment should be credited to your account within 17 days starting from the day after this notice. If this is done, you will be able to retain your account and use it in the future. You should allow at least four working days for your payment to be credited if paying over the counter at a bank or seven days if posting your payment.

 

if you do not comply with the Default Notice, you will no longer be covered by any Payment Protection Insurance you may have and we will withhold any renewal cards."

 

........which is interesting as I am not sure whether I had any PPI on this account........if I did then should that not be deducted from the outstanding balance?......as i have not been able to enjoy any benefit from it?

Edited August 1, 2009 by karenruthj8
rougue smileys

[sythe]

........which is interesting as I am not sure whether I had any PPI on this account........if I did then should that not be deducted from the outstanding balance?......as i have not been able to enjoy any benefit from it?

 

 

ooopsey........I just dug out the old file on this a/c and I did have PPI and did claim on it in April 2007.

[cerberusalert]

It would be better if you can scan and upload it because there are several things which can make a DN defective which means that they would only be able to reclaim the arrears not the total amount.

 

It doesn't matter whether you accept their offer or not because the amount will be deducted from the amount owing, besides that it wouldn't affect the enforcibility of the debt. The debt is still owed but your arguement would be as to the enforceability of any agreement which was in place.

 

Wescott's passed it back because they don't want to get their fingers burned.

[sythe]

Hi..........I have a digital camera...........so I'll take a photo of the DN and try posting that......

 

kind regards krj8

[sythe]

Hi Cerberusalert

 

......hope these jpg files are OK...see attached files

[sythe]

my earlier jpg's seem unreadable to I've placed the jpg's into a word document........see attached..hope this works

 

krj8

RBsvisaDNcopy.doc

[cerberusalert]

There are a couple of things wrong with that default notice, firstly it's not laid-out in the prescribed manner also it doesn't give a specific date to remedy by, just saying 17 days from the date of the letter is not acceptable.

 

Do you still have the envelope it came in, if so what postage was it? Also have they terminated the a/c yet? If not when they do all they will be able to claim are the arrears not the full outstanding balance.

 

What you need now is the CCA to see if they're in fact entitled to enforce any payment at all.

[alangee]

The DN is invalid. 17 Days from 12th February gives you a date to repair the breech by 1st March.

 

12th February was a Thursday. If they posted the DN by 1st Class mail, then they have to allow two working days for delivery (4 working days if 2nd class), so it will have been delivered on Monday 16th February. The 14 clear days required by the act would start on Tuesday 17th, which means that the breach would have to be repaired by 3rd March.

 

They have only allowed you 12 days, not the required 14 days, so making the DN invalid. If they terminate on this DN, then you are only liable for the arrears stated on the DN. Have you had a Termination Notice yet?

 

Alan

[sythe]

There are a couple of things wrong with that default notice, firstly it's not laid-out in the prescribed manner also it doesn't give a specific date to remedy by, just saying 17 days from the date of the letter is not acceptable.

 

Do you still have the envelope it came in, if so what postage was it? Also have they terminated the a/c yet? If not when they do all they will be able to claim are the arrears not the full outstanding balance.

 

What you need now is the CCA to see if they're in fact entitled to enforce any payment at all.

 

Okey dokey........I'll digest your advice.

 

I can't find the envelope that the DN came from......at the time that the a/c went haywire I was not up to par with filing..............my father was approaching the end of his life after a long and difficult illness and I'd been diagnosed as suffering from fatigue and anxiety again..........

 

kindest regards krj8

[IdaInFife]

these might help you understand the position of the DN,

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/170345-tale-dodgy-dn.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/208663-tale-dodgy-dn-further.html

 

so you still have the termination notices?

 

Ida x

[sythe]

these might help you understand the position of the DN,

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/170345-tale-dodgy-dn.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/208663-tale-dodgy-dn-further.html

 

so you still have the termination notices?

 

Ida x

 

 

Hi Ida..........i will read your info and learn..........thanks again

 

krj8:O)

[sythe]

There are a couple of things wrong with that default notice, firstly it's not laid-out in the prescribed manner also it doesn't give a specific date to remedy by, just saying 17 days from the date of the letter is not acceptable.

 

Do you still have the envelope it came in, if so what postage was it? Also have they terminated the a/c yet? If not when they do all they will be able to claim are the arrears not the full outstanding balance.

 

What you need now is the CCA to see if they're in fact entitled to enforce any payment at all.

 

I don't know if they've terminated the account.....what kind of document would that be?.......I read through Ida's "tale of a dodgy DN"......but I just don't get it............can you explain it in very simple terms.....sorry for being so thick..........krj8

[sythe]

Hi again............I just trawled through the file and found a letter headed ACCOUNT TERMINATION, it is dated 07-March2008........also found a letter dated 14-March-2009 stating that the PPI cover had been cancelled.

 

I still don't understand the relevance of these letters.......help please

 

kind regards krj:O)

Edited August 2, 2009 by karenruthj8
spelling

[IdaInFife]

the DN has to be in the ocrrect format:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/200901-anatomy-default-notice.html

 

which means if a DN is not in the correct Format then they terminate the account. You are only liable to pay the amount of arrears on the DN because they have terminated the account wrongly so breach their on agreement.

 

Ida x

[sythe]

the DN has to be in the ocrrect format:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/200901-anatomy-default-notice.html

 

which means if a DN is not in the correct Format then they terminate the account. You are only liable to pay the amount of arrears on the DN because they have terminated the account wrongly so breach their on agreement.

 

Ida x

 

okey dokey.........I think it's becoming clearer...

 

If the DN is faulty as Cerberusalert says, then it would seem that all I'm actually due to pay back is either £211.25 or £70......I'm not sure which?

 

.....anyhoo...I'll bear all the info. in mind.....at the moment however I'll request a copy of the original signed credit agreement.........that way I'll hopefully get some clue where I stand as far as enforceability is concerned.

 

If there's anything else you could suggest I'd be much obliged.

 

kindest regards

krj8:O)

[IdaInFife]

you got it.

 

send the cca to see what they come back with ,

 

Ida x

[sythe]

Hi.............I've also twigged that the DN seems to be based upon the idea that I was in breach of the card agreement......so if they cannot produce a copy of the original signed credit agreement, how can I be in breach of something that they don't have to hand?

 

...............does that make logical sense to anyone else? Having suffered so much troubles with credit agreements I most certainly wouldn't want to ever make myself vunerable to the frankly extortionate interest and charges etc that these contracts seem to thrive on......

 

.....I just wish I had the money to settle this thing and forget it........seems I've been carrying this heavy weight around for far too long.

 

regards

krj8 :O)

Edited August 2, 2009 by karenruthj8
spelling

[sythe]

Hi..........I got the the following reply today from the FOS.

 

Thank you for your e-mail of 1 August 2009.

Whilst I appreciate you have further concerns with the bank's administration of your credit card debt, I need to respectfully point out that I can only consider in isolation the actual complaint you brought to this service. This specifically related to your offer of repayment and the bank continuing to apply interest and charges.

Therefore if, on reflection, you would now like to accept the offer detailed in my letter of 28 July 2009 in full and final settlement of this particular part of your complaint, I would ask you to sign and return the settlement form attached to my letter no later than 18 August 2009.

This would not have any bearing on the additional issues you have raised which would need to form a separate new complaint to the bank. If you then remain unhappy

with its response to these additional issues, you would be able to bring that separate complaint to this service for independent arbitration.

I look forward to receiving your signed settlement form as soon as possible, however, if I have not heard from you further by 18 August 2009 I will assume that you do not wish to take your current complaint further with us and I will let the bank know and close my file.

 

any advice?.......I really feel I want to pursue the CCA request. So long as accepting the FOS settlement offer will not adversly affect my position.

 

I was so angry I sent the following reply :

 

Thank you for your reply.

With the greatest respect, I have waited over 18 months for The Royal Bank of Scotland and the Financial Ombudsman Service to respond satisfactorily to my complaint.

In the interim several Debt Collection Agencies acting on behalf of RBS have harassed me with regard to this disputed account.

As a result of their actions I have now decided to request a copy of the original signed credit agreement with a view to clarifying my position in this matter.

I find it utterly unacceptable that I should now only be granted a matter of weeks to consider my next best course of action. With that in mind I now ask that the FOS grant me enough time to acquire the documents that I am legally entitled to have.

I will in the very near future send a CCA request to RBS and I will contact you again as soon as that is done. As I understand it RBS will then have 12+2 working days and then a further 30 days to comply with my request.

I would appreciate your due diligence in replying to this email

 

 

 

kind regards krj8

Edited August 4, 2009 by karenruthj8
adding more + spelling

[sythe]

Hi..........I really am going to have a rant now...........of all the slippery, underhanded, unfair, unjust......unreasonable.........RBS stands for Really are lower that the Belly of a Snake.

 

I am going to hit these people with everything I've got.........faulty DN's.........wrong charges..........pursueing a/c's in dispute............the lot.

 

I'm going to sit down later today and draft one doozey of a letter to RBS..........it takes a long time for my birse to go up.........but it takes even longer for it to go down again:-x:-x:-x:-x:-x:-x:-x:-x:-x:-x:-x:-x:-x:-x

 

REVENGE IS A DISH BETTER EATEN COLD.....krj8:O)

[cerberusalert]

any advice?.......I really feel I want to pursue the CCA request. So long as accepting the FOS settlement offer will not adversly affect my position.

Accepting the offer does not affect the CCA.

 

 

RBS only have 12 working days from receipt of your request, the 30 days was removed from the Act last year.

[sythe]

Accepting the offer does not affect the CCA.

 

 

RBS only have 12 working days from receipt of your request, the 30 days was removed from the Act last year.

 

 

thanks cerberusalert.............i'm not going to accept the FOS offer on principle.........how dare they treat me like this..........further to that i'm not going to let wescot off the hook either.......i requested the CCA in June they're not going to get to slope shoulders about that....i intend to fight this thing until RBS no longer hold a credit license.........if it is at all possible...........i brought Thompson Regional Newspapers to their knees several years ago and RBS don't scare me in the slightest.