Argos/Cabot - Which way next please

[up2meears]

Hello everyone,

 

Could somebody please take a look at the letter I received from Cabot today in response to my account in dispute letter for an argos store card and advise on my next move.

 

I received a copy of the card application signed in 2002, and what looked like unrelated, updated t&c. (I can not attach any docs at the mo as my laptop has died and I have no use of scanner) The paper they sent me claiming to be a true copy had no APR, no repayment terms and no credit limit. I sent them an account in dispute letter which I copied from this site and 3 days ago received a letter telling me the accounts being escalated to their pre litigation dept. I sent them again today an account in dispute letter, but when I returned home I found the following waiting for me:

 

Dear Up2meears

 

Our response to your correspondence

 

I refer to your letter dated 14th July and our letter dated 13th July

 

I understand you are querying the documentation you have been provided in response to your request under sections 77/78 of the consumer credit act 1974 ("CCA")

 

We accept that there was an initial delay in providing the relevant documentation to you, as it was necessary for the information to be retrieved from the original lenders archive. Notwithstanding, we have provided the required information to you in our letter dated 13th July 2009, which satisfied your request for information.

 

Furthermore, please be advised, that faliure to provide a copy of your agreement in time does not affect the legality of your debt with the Cabot financial group but merely renders the agreement unenforcable until such time the agreement can be produced.

 

With regards to the consumer credit (agreements) regulations 1983, concerning the form and content of the agreement, these regulations do not deal with this, as it is the CCA that deals with this matter as primary legislation.

 

Section 61 of the consumer credit act, which signs with the ''signing of document'' states

 

"A regulated is not properly executed unless

(a) A document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to the regulations (Consumer Credit(Agreement) Regulations 1983) under section 60(1) is signed inthe prescribed manner both by the debtor.........

(b) The document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than the implied terms....."

 

Section 189(4) of the CCA states:

 

"A document embodies a provision if the provision is set out either in the document itself or in another document referred to in it"

 

In this instance on the credit agreement it is clear that the terms are referred to.

 

As to prescribed terms, this is covered in section 61(a), above, where it mentions, "contains". The terms and conditions have set out all the prescribed terms as required under the Consumer Credit (Agreement) Regulations 1983 and therefore there can be no argument as to the validity of the form and content of the agreement.

 

I note your reference to section 127(3) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. You shall note from this section of the Act that the Court take into account if the debtor has suffered any prejudice by the contravention inquestion. Therefore, if if this credit agreement had been improperly executed, we would argue that you have suffered no prejudice as a result of its execution.

 

With regards to your subject notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act 1998 ("DPA"), section 10(1) of the DPA states

 

"Subject to subsection (2), an individual is entitled at any time by notice in writing to a data crontroller to require the data controller at the end of such period as is reasonable in the circumstances to cease, or not begin, processing, or processing for a specified purpose or in a specified manner, any personal data in respect of which he is the data subject, on the ground for specified reason -

(a) the processing of those data or their processing for that purpose or in that manner is causing or is likely to cause substantial damage or substantial distress to him or to another, and

(b) that damage or distress would be unwarrented"

 

Section 10(2) of the DPA states:

 

"Subsection (1) does not apply

(a) in a case where any of the conditions in paragraphs 1 to 4 of schedule 2 is met, or

(b) in such other cases as may be prescribed by the secretary of state by order"

 

I refer your attention to paragraphs 1 to 4 of schedule 2 of the DPA, which states:

 

Conditions Relevent for purpose of the first principle: Processing of any personal data.

1. The data subject has given his consent to the processing.

2. The processing is necessary

a. For the performance of a contract to which the data subject is a party, or

b. For the taking of steps at the request of the data subject with a view to entering into a contract

3. The processing is necessary for compliance with any legal obligation to which the data controller is subject, other than an obligation imposed by contract.

4. The processing in order to protect the vital interests of the data subject

 

You shall note from section 10(2)(a) of the DPA, the words "any of the conditions" and paragraph 1 & 2 of Schedule 2 of the DPA are entirely relevent to your case, as you signed a credit agreement which has been assigned to Cabot Financial (UK) Ltd.

 

In relation to your concern regarding the processing of your clients data, Cabot is legally entitled and obligated under the original credit agreement and under the Data Protection Act to process information and also to report to the credit reference agencies ("CRA's"). We disclose information to CRA's about customer's conduct of their accounts because that disclosure is necessary for the purpose of legitimate interests pursued by us, other members of the credit industry and the CRA's. CRA's hold such data and disclose it to prospective lenders because that is, similarly, necessary for the purpose of the same legitimate interests.

 

Furthermore, under the original terms of the credit agreement, which you signed with the creditor, you consented to information being disclosed to third parties and CRA's. Accordingly, the DPA section 4, schedule 1 and schedule 2 of the Act, in particular paragraph 6 of schedule 2, permits disclosure of such information to and by CRA's without the customers consent.

 

I trust I have set our position clearly.

 

For your ease of reference the outstanding balance is £*,***.**. I would recommend you contact our collections department, within 14 days, on 0845 0700 116 to discuss the options available in order to settle this account. I must inform you that if we do not hear from you within this time frame, this account will be escalated within our collection procedures.

 

If you have any further queries in relation to the above account, please do not hesitate to contact me on 0845 026 0463. The Customer Assurance Dept is open from 9am to 5pm Monday to Friday.

 

Yours sincerely

Ian Wooding

 

I must say this letter has knocked me sideways a little and I have nooo idea on what to do next.

I can not retrieve my original account in dispute letter as it's trapped on my laptop, along with everything else.

 

I would appreciate any input from anyone and I thank you in advance for any help you can offer.

 

Thank you,

Up2meears

[havinastella]

So, whats the problem?

 

It's a nonsense letter sent to confuse you.

 

send something like

 

Dear cretins

 

If you think this account is enforceable, see you in Court.

[up2meears]

Thanks for cheering me up Havin, but I aint that brave.

[maroondevo52]

Thanks for cheering me up Havin, but I aint that brave.

 

Aye, a bit too brave, I'm sure Jogs will come up with a suitable letter you could send

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

[up2meears]

Thanks Maroon,

[havinastella]

I'm looking for one, but new PC and don't have all my templates on it.

 

The thing is, I was being totally straight.

 

The problem won't go away with letter ping pong, it will only go away after a court has ruled on the enforceabilty or 6 yrs passes without you acknowleding the debt.

 

In realality, you really want this to go to court.

 

Jogs

[up2meears]

I agree about letter ping pong - it's costing me a small fortune.

 

If you don't mind attaching a template when you can that'd be great.

 

For now, I'll keep the 'Dear Cretin' letter in my emergency back up when all else fails and I'm pee'd off and need to send something to tell them I mean business pile

 

I kinda knew their letter was a jackanory type thing but it really depressed me when I saw it.

 

Thanks again, you've really calmed me down

[havinastella]

Hi Up

 

Is this any good?

 

 

Letter before Action

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: − Account/Reference

 

I refer to our recent correspondence regarding the above account where I requested a signed copy of the credit agreement (which you have not been able to produce) and do not recognise any liability to you or your legal right to pursue this alleged debt.

 

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued. The following examples are from high court and the court appeal case law which backs up any legal defence, or counter claim under Consumer Credit Act 1974 s.142

 

Wilson v First County Trust Ltd [2001] EWCA Civ 633, Sir Andrew Morritt, Vice Chancellor said:

• The creditor must…be taken to have made a voluntary disposition, or gift, of the loan monies to the debtor. The creditor had chosen to part with the monies in circumstances in which it was never entitled to have them repaid

 

In the case of Dimond v Lovell [2000] UKHL 27, Lord Hoffmann said:

• Parliament intended that if a consumer credit agreement was improperly executed, then subject to the enforcement powers of the court, the debtor should not have to pay.

 

Should I wish to pursue court action there are firms now willing to do this on a no win no fee basis based on CCA2006 s.140 Unfair Relationships and this would incur considerable expense to your self both in litigation costs and my legal costs and the refund of all monies paid by myself

 

As a compromise I suggest you write off this alleged debt and remove all reference from my credit files.

 

Should I not receive a satisfactory reply then I will be considering enforcing my legal rights through the courts and would suggest you pass this letter to your legal department for their attention.

 

Yours faithfully

[up2meears]

That's the sort of thing I'm looking for.

 

Thank you sooooo much

[up2meears]

Hello all,

 

Have just received this letter from Cabot and would like to know your views on it please.

 

 

Dear Up2MeEars,

 

Our response to your correspondence

 

I refer to our letters dated 13th & 29th July and your letters dated 14th and 26th July.

 

Cabot has previously responded to the issues you have raised and our position remains unchanged. I would with respect advise you that you have been misinformed in relation to the arguements you continue to raise and you have no grounds for your continued dispute and failure to pay your financial liabilites.

 

As previously advised, the requirements of the Consumer Credit (Agreement) Regulations 1983/1553 concerning the form and content of the agreement are enforced by the primary legislation which is the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (CCA) and more specifically section 60(1) which states: "The Secretary of State shall make regulations as to the form and content of documents....." As a result, one is required to view the primary legislation together with the secondary legislation and therefore our explanation as set out on previous occasions that the terms of the agreement can be set out in another document is legally accurate.

 

On reviewing your account it is evident from correspondence that you are delaying repayment of this account. However, it is the case that you signed and agreed to the terms of the credit agreement in order to receive and utilise the Argos store card (ARG). In addition you have previously made payments to Cabot, which again is clear evidence that you acknowledge responsibilty for the above account.

 

I note that you refer to the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40 that we are harassing you for a debt. We would respectfully inform you that this section has been amended and furthermore does not apply in your circumstances. I can confirm that we have not committed any offence of harassment under the Administration of Justice Act 1970 or otherwise. We would like to confirm again that we have taken over your account from ARG, the original lender and we are responsible for administering your account, including taking payments, answering your queries and reporting information to the Credit Reference Bureaux. As a result, we are seeking your co-operation in settling your financial liabilities. Notwithstanding I can confirm that your telephone number has been temporarily removed from our records.

However I must re-iterate that if we do not receive your co-operation in paying towards your outstanding balance, we shall reserve the right to re-instate telephone contact.

 

Cabot takes all legal and regulatory responsibilities seriously and abides by industry codes of practice and guideance. We wish to assist our customers to get back on the right track with their finances and that is why we are contacting you.

 

We will not enter into any further correspondence with you regarding this matter as we have continually responded to the issues you have raised. Please be advised your account has been returned to our collections department.

 

Amanda Chivers

Customer Assurance Adviser.

 

Has the Administration of Justice Act 1970 been amended? if so why would it not apply in my case? And if it has been amended and doesn't apply why have they "temporarily removed my phone number from their records".

 

I don't know wether to laugh or cry at this letter, but I would be grateful if somebody could tell me my next course of action.

 

Cheers, Up2

[up2meears]

Anyone? please?

[maroondevo52]

Thread moved.

[up2meears]

~Thank you~ xx

[cerberusalert]

To be honest I wouldn't even bother responding, they are trying to confuse you with gibberish. Wait until their next move otherwise you'll just end up in a never ending round of postal ping-pong. Until they provide an enforceable agrement they are stuffed & they know it.

[up2meears]

~Thank you Maroondevo~ xx

[up2meears]

Really Cerberusalert? Wow, I actually thought they had me on this one. Thanks for the reassurance.

[mysticpols06]

Hi, Have you received anything else in the last month?

Regards, Mpols x

[ScabHunter]

Really Cerberusalert? Wow, I actually thought they had me on this one. Thanks for the reassurance.

 

This shows why Crapbot use their attrition tactics. The facts are the same now as they were two or three months ago, but thanks to the repeated sending of monstrous lies they have managed to convince another victim that white is darker than black.

 

I have yet to see anyone benefit from engaging these idiots in dialogue. There is no purpose in doing so. If an alleged agreement is unenforceable it will forever remain so. State the facts once, state that it is your final position, and then spend your time and money on something sensible.

 

SH

[up2meears]

Hi everyone,

 

Haven't received any further letters from them but am receiving no less than 10 calls a day (which I just let ring, unless I'm in a playful mood and then just answer the phone without saying anything and leave it next to the t.v )

 

I'm sure it wont be long though, after all christmas is coming 8)

[ScabHunter]

and leave it next to the t.v

Wow, with the current standard of British TV that really is punishing them!

 

Time they were sent this -

 

- HARASSMENT WARNING -

 

WARNING: PROTECTION FROM HARASSMENT ACT 1997

 

WARNING: COMMUNICATIONS ACT 2003. s127.

 

Telephone Number: £££££££££

 

Re: Harassment by Telephone

 

DATE

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Alleged Account Number £££££££££££

 

I am writing in relation to the telephone calls I have received from your organisation, which I deem to be personally harassing. I have requested that these calls stop, and for a time they did; however I have today received yet another unlawfully harassing and distressing call from ££££££

 

I now require the telephone number listed above to be completely removed from your systems.

 

I am in the view that your renewed calling puts you in breach of the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

 

This is a private telephone line, operated on a contract with the intention of receiving and making personal phone calls, I have not authorised any other member of my family to receive calls from your organisation using this PRIVATE TELEPHONE LINE.

 

By using this telephone number without my permission you are interfering with my ability to use my own private property for the duration of any call.

 

It is my right to require that this telephone line, which is licensed solely to myself, be kept clear for my own personal calls.

 

It is consequently my view that you are committing the tort of interference with contract insofar as for the duration of each call you make to me without my permission, you are interfering with my contractual right to receive and make personal calls on my private telephone line.

 

Continued interference with my contractual rights in this manner will result in legal action.

 

If you continue to harass me by telephone, you will also be in breach of the Communications Act (2003) s.127 and I will report you to the Office of Communications, Trading Standards and the Office of Fair Trading, meaning that you will be liable for a substantial fine.

 

Be advised that all telephone calls from your company are recorded.

 

Kind Regards

 

 

SH

[up2meears]

Thanks for that letter Scabhunter. Is it ok to send even though I haven't actually spoke/engaged in conversation with them?

 

I was actually already trying to think of a good letter to send them regarding harassment as they are well aware I tried to kill myself two years ago because of the grief I was getting off all my creditors. I thought they were doing it beleiving I was still weak and vulnerable.

[ScabHunter]

Thanks for that letter Scabhunter. Is it ok to send even though I haven't actually spoke/engaged in conversation with them?

 

Yes indeed. The fact that you have not responded to their harassment in no way diminishes the fact that it is occurring.

 

If you feel it is more appropriate, you could answer one of the calls and ask that all communication be in writing before you send the letter, but it certainly isn't necessary. They know they are trying to harass, otherwise they wouldn't be making ten nuisance calls a day.

 

I was actually already trying to think of a good letter to send them regarding harassment as they are well aware I tried to kill myself two years ago because of the grief I was getting off all my creditors. I thought they were doing it beleiving I was still weak and vulnerable.

 

Well, you are now part of the most supportive website I have ever belonged to, and are amongst friends. We may never meet in person, but that in no way lessens the bond that CAGgers feel. If you need support, post here and you'll get it.

 

The letter may not stop the harassment, although I have read posts by one CAGger who claimed to have had great success with it. Whatever happens, it is the first step in the complaints procedure.

 

If nuisance telephone calls are a persistent problem, there are ways of dealing with the situation. Have you seen the trueCall? It is not cheap, but it is exactly what the telephone-using public has needed for a very long time. Depending on your situation, it could be the answer.

 

There are other cheaper and more crude answers. As I do all of my business online, I don't even need a telephone. It stays blissfully silent because it is never plugged in. Except when I need to actually make an outgoing call, which I think was four times last year.

 

Of course, I have no living family, so my situation is probably different from most. I only mention it as a possibility, which of course you can use as often or as infrequently as you choose. If there is just one evening when you're feeling particularly down, you can just pull the damn thing out and stick it back in next morning.

 

Send that letter off. I hope it works for you. If it doesn't, there are ways to take matters further.

 

SH

[up2meears]

Thanks for that SH, I have received loads of help since joining this site in March and my only regret is that I didn't find it sooner (when I was in a really bad place)

 

I will send that letter off and see what they say. Thanks again for your (and all Caggers) advice. It really does make a world of difference

 

Up2 x

[Huff&Puff]

Well, you are now part of the most supportive website I have ever belonged to, and are amongst friends. We may never meet in person, but that in no way lessens the bond that CAGgers feel. If you need support, post here and you'll get it.

 

Absolutely right! I've been participating in forums for years, and I moderate on a couple, but I've never found a site with the same feeling of "togetherness" as this one :)

 

In the end I gave in and got my number changed (just before I found out about the Trucall as it happened ). I'm glad I did though, DCAs are so much easier to deal with when they put their lies in writing. And it's nice to just be able to pick up the pbhone again when it rings.

[up2meears]

 

Should I wish to pursue court action there are firms now willing to do this on a no win no fee basis based on CCA2006 s.140 Unfair Relationships and this would incur considerable expense to your self both in litigation costs and my legal costs and the refund of all monies paid by myself

 

 

Hi all,

 

Are there reputable firms willing to do the no win no fee court action? I have had enough of Cabots shananigins (and endless phone ringing) but have had a google and can't really find what I'm looking for.

 

If anyone knows of a good firm to use could you please let me know.

 

Thanks

Up2