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Manxcat2206 v M&S Chargecard

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OK, so I've sent CCA request to M&S (also BC x2 and MBNA x2, but I'll start new threads for those).

 

They started by telling me the request had to be signed under the DPA, so I sent the letter explaining why that isn't the case.

 

By this time the 12+2 had come and gone anyway, but I've allowed them a bit more time after receipt of my second letter so I can prove I was reasonable.

 

Today, I've received back a letter saying that they're investigating my 'complaint' (which it wasn't), but that they need more time to look into it and asking for an extra 10 days.

 

Is it best to give them yet another 10 days, or do I send the Account in dispute letter now? Is one course of action or the other likely to give a better outcome?

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I think you need to tell them you consider that the debt is in dispute, as they may claim that they weren't aware you were disputing it at a later date.

 

What are you hoping to achieve here?

 

I'm not sure they will reply with something substantive in 10 days - they tend to delay, delay and delay confirming whether they have the agreement, should it be enforceable.

 

You should consider sending a DPA SAR anyway - you never know, they may be recoverable charges on there, also. ;)


Always happy to help where I can!

:lol:

Beware of legal advice given on a private forum - do you REALLY know who is posting? Are they REALLY accountable for their posts? What if you follow their advice and get something wrong?

It was Winston Churchill who said; "Democracy is the worst way to run a country except for all the others"

 

Advice and comments posted by car2403 are offered purely without prejudice. They reflect only my personal opinion and do not represent the opinion of this forum or it's management. You should always seek legal advice from a qualified legal advisor. As a member of the site team, I disable reputation - reputation points mean nothing, please check my posting credentials yourself and make an informed decision. You shouldn't PM me and await a reply - I may be too late with a response. No replies will be given in Private Messages - just as with getting advice from the forum, getting advice via Private Messages is dangerous. CAG is about sharing successes so others can follow your example, this is primarily why I'm here, so please don't be offended if I don't offer replies in PM that doesn't comply with this. Help CAG to help others by keeping your thread up to date.

 

 

USEFUL LINKS; New User Guide to CAG | Can't find what you're looking for? | Intro to Consumer Credit Litigation | Is My Agreement Enforceable | Default (Surleybonds) Template Letter | Defaults - background, removal methods, challenges and taking a claim to Court | Digital Signature Guide | Overdrafts and the CCA

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Thanks for the info.

 

Strangely, they have now actually come up with some information. It's a copy of my original application form. However, there are a couple of points where I think this falls down as an agreement, if someone could please clarify for me.

 

Firstly, I self selected a credit limit of £500 when I signed the app back in 2000. This credit limit has since been increased in various stages up to £3200 - none of the increases have been requested.

 

Also, there is nothing on the app about interest rates etc, just the statement that the agreement is covered by the Consumer Credit Act 1974, with no T&C's whatsoever included in the document I've signed.

 

As far as I can make out from other posts, this makes the agreement unenforceable as the interest rate etc has to form part of the document I've signed, but I'd like clarification if possible before I go back to them.

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Can you scan/post the agreement? (with personal details removed)


Always happy to help where I can!

:lol:

Beware of legal advice given on a private forum - do you REALLY know who is posting? Are they REALLY accountable for their posts? What if you follow their advice and get something wrong?

It was Winston Churchill who said; "Democracy is the worst way to run a country except for all the others"

 

Advice and comments posted by car2403 are offered purely without prejudice. They reflect only my personal opinion and do not represent the opinion of this forum or it's management. You should always seek legal advice from a qualified legal advisor. As a member of the site team, I disable reputation - reputation points mean nothing, please check my posting credentials yourself and make an informed decision. You shouldn't PM me and await a reply - I may be too late with a response. No replies will be given in Private Messages - just as with getting advice from the forum, getting advice via Private Messages is dangerous. CAG is about sharing successes so others can follow your example, this is primarily why I'm here, so please don't be offended if I don't offer replies in PM that doesn't comply with this. Help CAG to help others by keeping your thread up to date.

 

 

USEFUL LINKS; New User Guide to CAG | Can't find what you're looking for? | Intro to Consumer Credit Litigation | Is My Agreement Enforceable | Default (Surleybonds) Template Letter | Defaults - background, removal methods, challenges and taking a claim to Court | Digital Signature Guide | Overdrafts and the CCA

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Hi Chris

 

Scanning and posting is not my strong point, so let's see if this works.

 

MandS App Public version.jpg

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Nope, still can't read it ;)

 

Have a looky at the beginners guide to CAG in my signature - there's some instructions there on uploading using Photobucket which should work.


Always happy to help where I can!

:lol:

Beware of legal advice given on a private forum - do you REALLY know who is posting? Are they REALLY accountable for their posts? What if you follow their advice and get something wrong?

It was Winston Churchill who said; "Democracy is the worst way to run a country except for all the others"

 

Advice and comments posted by car2403 are offered purely without prejudice. They reflect only my personal opinion and do not represent the opinion of this forum or it's management. You should always seek legal advice from a qualified legal advisor. As a member of the site team, I disable reputation - reputation points mean nothing, please check my posting credentials yourself and make an informed decision. You shouldn't PM me and await a reply - I may be too late with a response. No replies will be given in Private Messages - just as with getting advice from the forum, getting advice via Private Messages is dangerous. CAG is about sharing successes so others can follow your example, this is primarily why I'm here, so please don't be offended if I don't offer replies in PM that doesn't comply with this. Help CAG to help others by keeping your thread up to date.

 

 

USEFUL LINKS; New User Guide to CAG | Can't find what you're looking for? | Intro to Consumer Credit Litigation | Is My Agreement Enforceable | Default (Surleybonds) Template Letter | Defaults - background, removal methods, challenges and taking a claim to Court | Digital Signature Guide | Overdrafts and the CCA

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Unfortunately, I can't use photobucket as I've got an account but it actually is in my real name (I usually only use it for posting gig photos for my friends).

 

Having said that, I've now found the answer on another thread, so I've written to them again with an account in dispute as all they've provided is an application form that doesn't comply.

 

Thanks for you help though - much appreciated.

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Thread moved to the newly opened M&S forum:grin:


Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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So this is where I'm up to now. They sent me a copy of my application form, without any T&C's on it - just a note that by signing it I was agreeing to the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

They have continued to phone several times daily. Mostly I don't take the calls, but I had to take one a couple of days ago after they phoned me at work and advised they would keep on doing this unless I spoke to them.

 

I asked them how they had got my work number (which I know for a fact I have never given them) and they told me that they would only use a phone number I'd given them and I must have given it to them. Now, I know for a fact I have done no such thing so I think there's some dodgy practice going on here anyway. The other thing they keep doing is ringing me and then asking me security questions to prove who I am. Mostly I refuse to answer these on the basis that if they've phoned me, they must be happy that they've used a phone number that connects them to me.

 

That aside, they then informed me that there is no agreement other than the application form. When I pointed out to them that the application form does not contain the prescribed terms such as interest rate etc and also that, as an application form it is not an executed agreement but is pre-contractual only, they reckoned that the form didn't have to include any T&C's because the statement "regulated by the consumer credit act 1974" covered this. Also, apparently the T&C's would have been on the back of the form and I've had updated ones since.

 

I explained to them, very patiently, that I would in that case need to see a copy of both sides of the application form so that I could see the original T&C's that they think I've signed. I also explained that, as the paperwork they have already sent me stood, the agreement was entirely unenforceable due to the prescribed terms not being on the document at all and the fact that all they have is an application form, not a proper agreement. I also explained that the account will remain in dispute until such time as they can prove a proper agreement exists and that they are actually not permitted to phone me nor to demand payment.

 

Anyway, they said they couldn't stop the phone calls (computer generated apparently), which is clearly not true - someone must be programming the computer. I told them that, in that case, I reserve the right not to answer said calls and that if they call me again at work, I'll have to take action to prevent them from doing so again. They did promise they'd deleted my work number and haven't tried it again since.

 

They also said that they would ask for a proper copy of both sides of the application form to be sent out to me even though as I pointed out to them this still doesn't constitute an executed agreement.

 

But today, instead of the proper copy of the app form, I've had instead a letter stating that the form without the T&C's that they've already sent me is compliant and legally enforceable and that they "refute all my allegations". Also that my account is in arrears and I should call them to discuss future payments. I now have 8 weeks to reply or they will close the file.

 

Clearly I need to go back to them and explain again why the application form they've sent me is of no use whatsoever and doesn't prove their case. As I've already put the account in dispute, what's the best letter to hit them with next? I've seen one somewhere on these forums about why an application form isn't sufficient as an executed agreement, but can't remember where it was. Also, I need to address the fact that they think that quoting the Consumer Credit Act without actually giving the terms is sufficient.

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Send them this in respect of the telephone calls.

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/52-harassment/133-formal-notice-of-telephone-recording

 

You can copy this letter from the OFT to them in respect of the CCA. What year was this account opened ?

 

This is a text format of the original letter which is in posts 35 and 37 in the following link

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/196114-miss-muppet-mbna-costs-7.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974 - Sections 77 and 78

Summary

On request and when accompanied by £1, a consumer has the right to:

• a copy of their executed agreement

• any other document referred to in it

• a statement showing

- the total sum paid under the agreement by the debtor

- the total sum which has become payable under the agreement by the debtor but remains unpaid, and the various amounts comprised in that total sum, with the date when each became due, and

- the total sum which is to become payable under the agreement by the debtor, and the various amounts comprised in that total sum, with the date, or mode of determining the date, when each becomes due. If the creditor is unable to give this information, he can state instead how the dates and amounts fall to be ascertained.

The copy of the executed agreement need not be an exact copy but it must be a ‘true copy’ and not some reconstruction of what the original might have been and it must contain the same terms as the original. Where the terms have been varied as provided for within the agreement, the copy of the original agreement must be accompanied by a document setting out the current terms, as varied. Certain details may be omitted from the original agreement eg the signature but the debtor must be in no doubt as to the true nature of his obligations under the loan.

Should no original agreement be in existence it is very hard to say that the copy the creditor offers to the debtor is, in fact, a true copy as there would be no original with which to compare it. In our view the onus of proof would be on the creditor to show that the copy is a true one and where none existed he may have difficulty discharging this. Neither should creditors suggest that a consumer has signed a credit agreement where they are unable to provide evidence to support this — to do so is likely to be a misleading action under Regulation 5 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (the CPRs) and would also constitute an unfair or improper business practice.

In our view a debt collector who has bought the debt is the ‘creditor’ and as such takes on the liabilities of section 77.

Under section 77(4), if the creditor is unable to provide this information, he is not entitled to enforce the debt while he remains in default (Decriminalised from 26 May 2008 on the coming into force of the CPRs).

Legal Argument

A copy of the executed agreement

 

Under the prescribed condition, section 77 of the Act requires the debtor to (Typo, she means Creditor I think) ‘...give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any)....‘. The ‘if any’ most naturally refers to the exception for agreements older than 1985 (Not sure this is correct, "if any" was inserted to cover Verbal Agreements).

Where a creditor receives a request to supply a copy of the executed agreement, the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (‘1983 regs’) apply. Regulation 3(1) sets out the basic position that ‘every copy of an executed agreement... shall be a true copy’.

Regulation 3(2) goes on to concede that there may be omitted from this true copy various information such as details which are not required to be in the agreement by law: the signature box, signature (it should be noted that sub-ss 3-5 of section 127 do not apply to agreements entered into after 1 April 2007.A Court may then, for example, enforce unsigned agreements if it considers it is just to do so.) and date of signature. In our view the effect of Regulation 3(2) is that the creditor is only obliged to send out a generic copy of the agreement the debtor has signed up to. The creditor is not obliged to make an actual photocopy of the agreement.

However, the copy does have to be a ‘true copy’. This is a technical term, which has been discussed in a number of cases, mostly relating to bills of sale and the need to register a ‘true copy’ of the bill with the High Court. These cases come from the days before typewriters, when copies were made by hand. The consequences of filing a copy which was not a true copy were severe, since the bill would then be void and the creditor deprived of his security.

Meaning of ‘true copy’

 

In this context, the courts decided that a ‘true copy’ need not necessarily be an ‘exact copy,’ but it must be ‘so true that nobody reading it can by any possibility misunderstand it’ or be misled by it (In re Hewer ex parte Kahen (1882) LR 21 Ch.D. 871 at 875). The copy must contain ‘every material provision which is contained in the original’ (except that if the defect is made good by reading the document as a whole, the omission will not be fatal) (Court of Appeal in Burchell v Thompson [1920] 2 KB 80 at 98-99). Further, it is not sufficient for the copy merely ‘to state with complete accuracy in a summary form the effect of the stipulations contained in the original. It is not merely a document that is to state the true legal effect of the original; it is to be a copy of the original’ (per Atkin LJ in Burchell at 105).

Hewer, ex parte Kahen - the filed copy of the bill omitted the precise day of the month on which payment was to be made. The court held this was trivial, and no debtor would be misled by it.

Sharp v McHenry (1888 ) LR 38 Ch.D. 427- the copy contained blanks which were not in the original. The court decided that the blanks were unimportant, since the omitted words were not required for the original bill to be valid.

Burchell v Thompson [1920] 2 KB 80 - the copy failed to include the words ‘per annum’ after the interest rate of 55%. The reader of the copy would have to guess whether the interest was per annum, per month or something else but as one could sensibly assume, correctly, that it was per annum it was a true copy.

Commercial Credit Company of Canada Ltd v Fuiton [1923] AC 798 - suggested further that where there are a raft of smaller differences in a bill of exchange copy, this could prevent it being a true copy. However where the differences were such as to make the copy contract actually different to the original, the copy will not be true. Lord Sumner, speaking of the man who may wish to refer to the copy, concluded that ‘the Act promises him ... a true copy, not a puzzle. He is to inspect it, not to recover the original by a process of conjectural emendation’ (at 807).

Terms and Conditions

 

Regulation 7(1) of the 1983 Regs requires that a requested copy of an agreement which has been unilaterally varied under section 82(1) of the Act, shall be accompanied either by the latest notice of variation or a copy of the terms and conditions as varied. Regulation 7(2) extends the principle to copies of varied securities supplied either to the consumer or the surety.

Debt collectors as creditors

A consumer credit debt can be assigned in two ways: in law under the Law of Property Act 1925 or in equity but in practice we need to be concerned only with statutory assignments.

For a debt to be assigned in law, there are three conditions:

• the assignment must be absolute.

• the assignor must make the assignment in writing.

• express notice of the assignment must be given in writing to the debtor (see section 136 of the Law of Property Act 1925).

 

The reason the debt is assigned is immaterial. For instance, books of loans may be sold on to be collected as an asset rather than as a discounted debt.

In some instances, the debt collector may have purchased a debt but not have the relevant agreement. Whilst, in general, ‘liabilities’ cannot be assigned there must be a question mark over whether ‘duties’ are the same. This is important since there is a rule, expressed in Tito v Waddell (No 2) [1977] Ch 106 at 289 to 302, that where a benefit is conditional upon some burden, the assignee must also take the burden. An example is where the contractor has the right to mine on condition that they pay compensation to those disrupted by the mining. If they assign their right to mine, the assignee takes this right subject to the duty to pay compensation.

Therefore, there is a strong argument that under the Act, the right to payment is never absolute. It is always subject to duties (many of which are imposed under the Act). For instance, the right to enforce the credit agreement at all is subject to the duty to comply with section 77 or 78. This duty is not a ‘liability’ as such under the credit agreement but is a condition of the right to repayment.

 

There has been a suggestion that debt collectors can avoid complying with section 77 and 78 by claiming that the agreement is no longer `live’ in some way as it has been ‘terminated’ based on section 103 of the Act. This talks of a ‘trader’ who was the creditor under a regulated agreement, implying that ‘trader’ is no longer a creditor once an agreement is ended. Section 103, however, deals with where the customer no longer owes any money at all and therefore it is correct to say that he is no longer a debtor and the trader is no longer his creditor. Where money is still owed, section 103 would not apply, since the consumer would not be entitled to a termination statement.

The first issue on when the debt collector becomes the creditor is relatively simple. Section 189(1) of the Act defines ‘creditor’ as ‘the person providing credit under a consumer credit agreement or the person to whom his rights and duties under the agreement have passed by assignment or operation of law.’

 

Where the debt collector is not acting as the creditor’s agent, or otherwise on his behalf, the only legal basis he can have for demanding payment from the debtor is if the creditor’s rights and duties have been assigned to him. Therefore we can be reasonably confident that a debt collector who has bought the debt is the ‘creditor’.

 

Unpalatable though section 77 and 78 may be for some creditors, if the debt collector is unable to prove the debt, they should be more careful about the debts they buy. They cannot complain that the sections are somehow unfair as it is in the Act and so must be complied with. It is up to them to ensure they purchase and maintain sufficient records to be able to prove the debt and comply with the other requirements of the Act.

 

Misleading statements to debtors

 

Sections 77 and 78 refer to supplying a copy of the ‘executed’ agreement within 12 working days of receiving a written request from the debtor. Failure to do so makes the agreement unenforceable against the debtor until a copy is provided. In addition, if the default continues for a period of 1 month the creditor is in breach of the Act.

Execution involves signing the agreement. If no agreement has been executed, it is impossible to supply a true copy of the agreement. Should a creditor supply a copy agreement, even though the debtor has never signed any agreement with that creditor, no indication should be given that it is a true copy or a copy of an executed agreement. To do so may contravene Regulation 5 of the CPRs and be an unfair or improper business practice.

 

The consequence of the debtor not having signed a credit agreement with the creditor is that the agreement is unenforceable except where the court orders that enforcement may take place. Where the agreement was made before 6th April 2007 the court is not able to make such an order unless the agreement was signed by the debtor.

 

Therefore it is misleading to state, when complying with a section 77 or 78 request, that the debtor has signed or would have signed (or similar) the enclosed agreement where the debtor has not done so. From 26 May 2008 such a statement will be a breach of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPRs). Regulation 5 of the CPRs states that a commercial practice is a misleading action if it contains false information in relation to the main characteristics of the product (amongst other matters) and is likely therefore to cause the average consumer to take a transactional decision he would not have taken otherwise. The product in question is the credit agreement and the main characteristics include the ‘execution of the product’ (Regulation 5(5)(d) of the CPRs).

Telling a consumer that he signed such an agreement is also a misleading statement about his rights and the risks he might face as covered by Regulation 5(4)(k) of the CPRs. It is our view that it is likely that a consumer will take a transactional decision to make a payment under the credit agreement or to refrain from exercising his rights under the agreement as a result of being misled about whether he signed it.

 

Breach of Regulation 5 of the CPRs is a criminal offence under Regulation 9 and can also be enforced under Part 8 of the Enterprise Act 2002. Under section 218A of the Enterprise Act, where an application for an Enforcement Order is made the court may require the Respondent ‘to provide evidence of the accuracy of any factual claim’ (such as a claim that a debtor has signed a credit agreement).

In addition, it should be noted that threats to take action that cannot be taken is listed as one of the factors that will be considered in assessing aggressive practices in Regulation 7(2) of the CPRs.

May 2008

 

Susan Edwards

Head of Credit Investigations and Enforcement, Office of Fair Trading


Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Really helpful information there, thanks for that. Something I hadn't realised before, but certainly it did come into play here is that if the agreement wasn't sent within 1 month it was a breach of the Act. I certainly waited longer than that because M&S did the usual of waiting until their 12+2 was almost up and then requesting a signature, so by the time I actually got the copy of the application form, even though it's insufficient, I had already waited more than a month for the documents. And now they're way, way over the time limit and have still not sent the correct information.

 

I took out the card early in 2000. It does seem from other threads that they may have the reverse side of the agreement, but there does seem to have been some question that not all the T&Cs are always in order on agreements this old.

 

And I'll definitely be using the phone recording letter. I have actually been recording the calls I've taken and had previously verbally advised them of this, but I'll put it in writing now.

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Well, here's the fix - they haven't complied with the request. To comply, they need a fully enforceable agreement and need to disclose it. Forget about the 12+2 deadline, as they are well passed and still in default - while they are, they can't enforce. If they continue collection activity, while the account is disputed, as it clearly is if they can't comply with your request, they are likely to be in breach of the OFT's Debt Collection guidelines.

 

Have you sent the account in dispute letter, yet?


Always happy to help where I can!

:lol:

Beware of legal advice given on a private forum - do you REALLY know who is posting? Are they REALLY accountable for their posts? What if you follow their advice and get something wrong?

It was Winston Churchill who said; "Democracy is the worst way to run a country except for all the others"

 

Advice and comments posted by car2403 are offered purely without prejudice. They reflect only my personal opinion and do not represent the opinion of this forum or it's management. You should always seek legal advice from a qualified legal advisor. As a member of the site team, I disable reputation - reputation points mean nothing, please check my posting credentials yourself and make an informed decision. You shouldn't PM me and await a reply - I may be too late with a response. No replies will be given in Private Messages - just as with getting advice from the forum, getting advice via Private Messages is dangerous. CAG is about sharing successes so others can follow your example, this is primarily why I'm here, so please don't be offended if I don't offer replies in PM that doesn't comply with this. Help CAG to help others by keeping your thread up to date.

 

 

USEFUL LINKS; New User Guide to CAG | Can't find what you're looking for? | Intro to Consumer Credit Litigation | Is My Agreement Enforceable | Default (Surleybonds) Template Letter | Defaults - background, removal methods, challenges and taking a claim to Court | Digital Signature Guide | Overdrafts and the CCA

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I have, yes. The account in dispute letter went out weeks ago - but of course they're happily ignoring it whilst continuing to phone me. Their new letter, though, does state that as the requested information has been provided, the account is no longer in dispute and their normal collections action has resumed (not that it ever actually stopped).

 

I'll be sending them another letter tomorrow explaining exactly why the account is still very much in dispute and exactly why they must cease and desist with their collections action.

 

I get the impression that all these companies are hoping that if they are awkward enough, we'll all just give up and pay up (they wish!)

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Have you used the harassment template?


Always happy to help where I can!

:lol:

Beware of legal advice given on a private forum - do you REALLY know who is posting? Are they REALLY accountable for their posts? What if you follow their advice and get something wrong?

It was Winston Churchill who said; "Democracy is the worst way to run a country except for all the others"

 

Advice and comments posted by car2403 are offered purely without prejudice. They reflect only my personal opinion and do not represent the opinion of this forum or it's management. You should always seek legal advice from a qualified legal advisor. As a member of the site team, I disable reputation - reputation points mean nothing, please check my posting credentials yourself and make an informed decision. You shouldn't PM me and await a reply - I may be too late with a response. No replies will be given in Private Messages - just as with getting advice from the forum, getting advice via Private Messages is dangerous. CAG is about sharing successes so others can follow your example, this is primarily why I'm here, so please don't be offended if I don't offer replies in PM that doesn't comply with this. Help CAG to help others by keeping your thread up to date.

 

 

USEFUL LINKS; New User Guide to CAG | Can't find what you're looking for? | Intro to Consumer Credit Litigation | Is My Agreement Enforceable | Default (Surleybonds) Template Letter | Defaults - background, removal methods, challenges and taking a claim to Court | Digital Signature Guide | Overdrafts and the CCA

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I've not used the harassment template yet. But don't I actually have to answer the calls to be able to claim they're harassing me? If I'm just not answering them, does it still count?

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Definately! Send it off and continue recording the contacts your receiving, answered or not ;)


Always happy to help where I can!

:lol:

Beware of legal advice given on a private forum - do you REALLY know who is posting? Are they REALLY accountable for their posts? What if you follow their advice and get something wrong?

It was Winston Churchill who said; "Democracy is the worst way to run a country except for all the others"

 

Advice and comments posted by car2403 are offered purely without prejudice. They reflect only my personal opinion and do not represent the opinion of this forum or it's management. You should always seek legal advice from a qualified legal advisor. As a member of the site team, I disable reputation - reputation points mean nothing, please check my posting credentials yourself and make an informed decision. You shouldn't PM me and await a reply - I may be too late with a response. No replies will be given in Private Messages - just as with getting advice from the forum, getting advice via Private Messages is dangerous. CAG is about sharing successes so others can follow your example, this is primarily why I'm here, so please don't be offended if I don't offer replies in PM that doesn't comply with this. Help CAG to help others by keeping your thread up to date.

 

 

USEFUL LINKS; New User Guide to CAG | Can't find what you're looking for? | Intro to Consumer Credit Litigation | Is My Agreement Enforceable | Default (Surleybonds) Template Letter | Defaults - background, removal methods, challenges and taking a claim to Court | Digital Signature Guide | Overdrafts and the CCA

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Excellent, that's one more thing I can hit them with. Looks like they'll be getting lots of letters from me early next week.

 

Many thanks for all the help so far everyone. I'll no doubt have some more news in the next few weeks.

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How long should I wait after they've signed for the phone harassment letter before I put in a complaint if they keep calling? Does it take them a couple of days to get it through their systems or should they stop the calls immediately they receive it?

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It's deemed served, therefore effective, as soon as they receive it


Always happy to help where I can!

:lol:

Beware of legal advice given on a private forum - do you REALLY know who is posting? Are they REALLY accountable for their posts? What if you follow their advice and get something wrong?

It was Winston Churchill who said; "Democracy is the worst way to run a country except for all the others"

 

Advice and comments posted by car2403 are offered purely without prejudice. They reflect only my personal opinion and do not represent the opinion of this forum or it's management. You should always seek legal advice from a qualified legal advisor. As a member of the site team, I disable reputation - reputation points mean nothing, please check my posting credentials yourself and make an informed decision. You shouldn't PM me and await a reply - I may be too late with a response. No replies will be given in Private Messages - just as with getting advice from the forum, getting advice via Private Messages is dangerous. CAG is about sharing successes so others can follow your example, this is primarily why I'm here, so please don't be offended if I don't offer replies in PM that doesn't comply with this. Help CAG to help others by keeping your thread up to date.

 

 

USEFUL LINKS; New User Guide to CAG | Can't find what you're looking for? | Intro to Consumer Credit Litigation | Is My Agreement Enforceable | Default (Surleybonds) Template Letter | Defaults - background, removal methods, challenges and taking a claim to Court | Digital Signature Guide | Overdrafts and the CCA

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Excellent news, thanks. I've just taken great pleasure in actually answering one of their numerous calls and pointing out to them that they just earned themselves a complaint to Ofcom. How clever of them....not!!

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You will find some rather fun ways of dealing with unwanted calls in the following thread

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bear-garden/215552-call-centre-wind-up-3.html#post2406845

 

HTH


Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Oh, liking those :D

 

Have to admit, I went for pure sarcasm:-

 

M&S: Hello, can I speak to Mrs Manxcat please?

Me: Speaking

M&S: This is Mr XXX from Marks & Spencer Finance.

Me: Oh, how nice for you.

M&S: Can you answer some security questions for me please?

Me: No, I don't think so, not today. But I am so glad you phoned after signing for my telephone harassment letter because you've just won a complaint to Ofcom

M&S: But it's very important that we speak to you.

Me: No, I really don't think so. Thank you so much for calling. Bye!:lol::lol::lol:

 

And they haven't called back again since!

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Would appreciate some advice please on what letter to send them next....

 

They have sent me what they claim to be the terms and conditions that were on the back of my original application.

 

There is no document reference on either the application or the T&C's they've sent me so there's absolutely no reason for me to think that they've actually come off the same document.

 

The allegedly accurate T&C's are close to illegible. The top line can't be read at all - due to poor copying I think as it's just got the black page border over it. Also, the first column has the end of some lines missing completely and a part of it has some sort of smudge over it leaving it completely illegible in that area.

 

I'm also 99.9% sure that the APR is wrong as they're quoting it as 23.7% and I'm quite, quite sure that it's never been that low on my account - I can remember calculating it myself and it coming out several percentage points higher.

 

I haven't examined the clauses in great detail yet as I'm going to need a magnifying glass and good daylight, so there may be other issues there yet. Also clause 10 seems to be missing entirely, although it's possible that the heading for this might be in the blacked out area.

 

Clearly they've still not really complied as they've sent me a partially illegible document and there's no proof that it's part of my original app.

 

Not quite sure what to send them next, although clearly I need to send them something to explain why I'm still not accepting their information.

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You could amend the letter in the link below,

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/582-possible-letter-when-a-questionable-agreementapplication-is-sent

 

Where it says in the letter :

 

I am granting to you a further 21 days to produce a copy of an executable agreement.

 

You should amend it to read...

 

I am granting to you a further 21 days to produce a copy of a legible and executable agreement.


Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Thanks so much for that - I was really starting to struggle with what else I could say to them that might actually get a response.

 

And, difficult though it is to fathom their reasons, they've started phoning again. I had a heated conversation with one of their lovely representatives this afternoon. The outcome of this was that they believe they are licensed by Ofcom to continue calls asking for payment EVEN IF the account is in dispute due to them not sending the correct, legible information - surely this can't be right? To be fair, the ever so charming lady did say that they couldn't 'help me' if I wouldn't answer security, although I already know that by 'helping me' they actually mean asking me to make a payment right now, today and that they won't do anything other than this so still didn't proceed with the conversation.

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