J D Williams - Help please !

[shalzak]

Hi all - I would be really grateful of anybody's comments/help with the following...

 

I am a customer of JD Williams and hold 3 catalogues but I'll deal with just one here at the moment.

 

I originally sent a CCA request on the 24th April this year with the required postal order. I didn't receive an answer at all but kept receiving account statements adding charges and threatening me for non-payment. I only got around to dealing with this recently (sticking my head in the proverbial sand) and sent the letter detailing that they had failed to send me a true copy etc etc dated the 13th July 2009. I then received another letter stating that I had refused to take responsibility for my debt and that I needed to pay before further action was taken and then a few days later another statement.

 

Today, I received a letter from their legal department...

 

"I have been asked to respond to your letter dated 13th July. We have complied with our obligations to supply you with a "True Copy" of your credit agreement. A "True Copy" is defined by Regulation 3 of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983. The "True Copy" need not, by law, contain either the signature of the debtor or the date of the signature in our case.

 

The purpose of sections 77 and 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 is to enable consumers to obtain a copy of the current terms applicable to their agreement. A "true copy" for the purposes of section 78 Consumer Credit Act 1974 therefore, need not be an exact copy or photocopy of the original executed/signed agreement so long as it contains every material provision of the agreement that was signed.

 

The copy agreement sent to you on the 12th May 2009 fulfils this requirement. No default therefore arises.

 

Having been provided with your "True Copy" there is no basis for you to either allege that you are exonerated from payment under the agreement or that we remain in breach of our obligations under the Act. Having established the legal position regarding the status of the document provided to you previously, I now wish to return to the substance for your refusal to pay your account. So that I can be absolutely clear, is it your case that you :-

 

a) deny receipt of the agreement ?

b) deny signing the agreement ?

c) admit or deny receipt of the goods and services ?

d) admit or deny performing your account as if you had signed the credit agreement ?

 

Please answer ALL of the above questions, whereupon the matter will receive our further attention.

 

There is a statutory right under section 10 of the Data Protection Act 1998 ('the Act') to require a data controller to stop processing data. A common misconception is that this grants a data subject a general right to prevent a data controller from legitimately processing that subject data. The Act provides no such general right. Provided we process data in compliance with the Data Protection Principles in the Act you may only request we cease processing where:-

 

a) the processing is likely to cause damage or distress; or

b) where the purpose of the processing is for DIRECT MARKING (sic)

 

We are not satisfied that you meet the tests set out in section 10 of the Act to establish a right under a) above (especially as it is our case that you have previously consented to such processing as we have carried out and/or the processing is in furtherance to a contract entered into at your request). There is a balance outstanding on your account which is due and owing and the processing or your account data will reflect that. We will accept your Section 10 notice in respect of DIRECT MARKETING only and we will now make arrangements to cease processing your data FOR THAT PURPOSE ONLY. There may be 'pipeline' mailings already selected for you which are in the course of despatch which we cannot now stop as these may be with third parties, but these will cease shortly.

 

Please confirm your intentions with regard to future payments on this account."

 

I did not receive anything on this account although on my other two accounts I did receive a blank copy of a credit agreement. I'm presuming that this is exactly the same.

 

If someone could help me on what my next move is as this doesn't make a lot of sense to me ... please ?!

Edited July 30, 2009 by shalzak
Missed some important information out

[havinastella]

It's all huff and puff.

 

Although they have in effect fulfilled your request.

 

Ignore everything except court papers. Until they can show you a valid agreement you are within your rights to withold payment.

 

Jogs

[harrassed senior]

If I am reading correctly

 

d) admit or deny performing your account as if you had signed the credit agreement ?

 

Is this an admittance that they have no signed Agreement?

[havinastella]

If I am reading correctly

 

d) admit or deny performing your account as if you had signed the credit agreement ?

 

Is this an admittance that they have no signed Agreement?

 

They NEVER have a signed agreement

 

Jogs

[shalzak]

What do I do about their demands for payments in the meantime - should I write to them at all ?

 

Thanks for taking the time to read my lengthy post !!

[harrassed senior]

Personally I would ignore them - I am in a similar position with other companies and I have heard nothing for several months now.

[shalzak]

I have bumped this to see if any further advice. All 3 catalogues left me alone for a few months and then wrote to me saying that they couldn't leave this at a standstill as I had opened the account after April 2007 (??). I initiated paying them a minimal £5pm which I have been paying for about 8 months now.

 

Do they have valid enforceable agreements if opened after April 2007 ? Also, what can I do about the hundreds of pounds of charges that they have added on top of the original debt. Swimming against an impossible financial current here

 

Thanks for any help x

[Alloyz1]

April 2007 only relates to a court being able to enforce the agreements whare as prior to 2007 they could not (CCA1974 s127)

[shalzak]

What do you think they mean by "You do not deny receiving goods or services and it is therefore considered that your assertion that you have no legal liability for payment to be based solely on the fact that the relevant credit agreement has not been signed. We have noted your comments regarding enforcement action and would draw your attention to the fact that this account was opened AFTER April 2007".

 

I'm confused ! Is it a case of they can enforce the account ?

[harrassed senior]

Well, to make absolutely sure that they can, send them this:

 

Dear Sirs,

Thankyou for your letter.

I am fully aware of the recent test case of RBS vs McGuffick, however to pre-empt any further attempt at confusion on your part I would point out that this referred to an agreement which was compliant but temporarily unavailable, therefore does not apply in my case.

Clearly you have chosen to abide by the Consumer Credit Act as minimally as is lawful, by providing a reconstituted agreement. While this may satisfy a CCA request, it is not enforceable in a court of law.

 

I now request you to confirn as to whether you actually hold a copy of the original signed agreement. If you do not hold an agreement, then I require you to confirm this, or if you do hold the original signed Agreement then I would ask for you to advise me in what form, and why a true copy of this has not been provided.

Certainly I can think of no valid reason why you should choose to provide a reconsituted/generic version rather than simply photocopy the original-if it exists.

I would remind you that the OFT state that creditors should not imply or state that an enforceable agreement exists if that is not the case.

 

I look forward to receiving your response within 14 days.

[shalzak]

Sounds good !

 

Just to check though... I initiated the account online, does this mean different rules apply ?

 

Thanks again

[maroondevo52]

Hi,

 

As The Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Electronic Communications) Order 2004 came into force in December 2004 any online agreements entered into prior to this date still need a signed executed credit agreement.

Electronic signatures weren't considered valid until this date.

So a 'tick' in the box would suffice.

 

Have you thought about claiming back all the charges ?

[skydancing]

Jdwilliam/ reliable collection,

Our experiences when we decided we had enough of phone calls and charges... we did following and the reply we got back....

 

First request for CCA, also a request for information on the account a breakdown of the account charges/ items purchased etc/

 

Statement shown/ telephone call, That they got our cheque, of £87.00, (refund?) which we do not have a cheque book with basic bank account.

 

Telephone call, ask for next month money? offer of a final settlement of £35..00 against £53.0) we accepted it.

 

Telephone call, stating we asked for a CCA, that Jd Williams do not keep records more than six years.

 

Confirmed in writing, that debt has been finished by JDWilliams as a good will gesture. Cased closed finished

 

We happy with this, part from paying interest charges for about a year. We win some lose on others

 

best of luck with Jd Williams.

Edited August 21, 2010 by skydancing