Egg v Readlaot

[Readalot]

this is a start of my little saga with egg... English is not my native language, please excuse my spelling/grammar.

 

CCA request, Subject Access Request, and no more phone calls request has been sent recently, registered mail.

 

Complaint and DMP offer (as in the next post) will be sent shortly special delivery (and it is special delivery for a reason).

 

I am trying to act as a reasonable person and in good faith. Hence, I'll start with offering payments which I can afford at the moment.

 

With time will see how it goes. Any suggestions on the best course of action are always welcome...

Edited July 25, 2009 by Readalot
spelling, after all, I am Readalot not Writealot

[Readalot]

FORMAL COMPLAINT

Readalot

Sherwood Forrest

 

Customer Relations Office, Egg Banking plc

Riverside Road, Pride Park, Derby DE99 3GG

 

XX of July 2009

 

accounts: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

my ref: EGGPLANTS1

 

by special delivery

 

2 pages

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

(1) I have recently been in communication over the phone with your “collection department” discussing my current financial difficulties and trying to reach an arrangement for repayment of outstanding balance.

 

(2) It is my opinion that your representative has not been acting in good faith. Particularly, excessive demands were made both to the standard of proof of my financial circumstances and to monthly amount which I was required to pay. I find it unreasonable that:

 

• your representative found that nearly 40 days worth of bank statements is not enough to show my financial circumstances and treated an obviously one time transaction as a recurrent transaction even after I have reasonably objected;
  
• even while I have set up standing order to make payments (out) on agreed date, I was charged 'late fees' which are clearly unlawful;
  
• your representative has suggested to wait until my next bank statement comes and than contact him again, effectively further increasing my indebtedness and ensuring that further interest and 'late fee' charges would be applied in coming weeks;
  
• your representative has requested me to give him guarantees that my financial circumstances will improve in the future. This is a very unreasonable request, because I cannot be expected to posses such a foresight to see the future. I might expect that my earnings would improve should those 'green shoots' so much trumpeted about on TV happen to be true. But sorry, there are no guarantees and it is unfair to require me to provide any guarantees.
  
• your representative “suggested” that I shall keep balance of my current account closer to 0£. This would significantly increase chances of incurring various overdraft fees and eventually lead to a dispute with my bank and therefore is unacceptable.
  

(3) Because of the reasons outlined above I hereby reject your offer of “arrangement” because I feel that you tricked me into making payments while not suspending extortionate rate of interest of nearly 22% further increasing my indebtedness and at the same time requiring me to pay more than I can afford.

 

(4) As per your complain procedure I am asking you to investigate this matter. I remind you that it is your obligation under The Banking Code, to which you subscribe and which therefore effectively is an implied term of any contract you enter with your customers, to treat your customers fairly and practice responsible lending. And I fully expect you to do so.

 

(5) I require to reverse 'late fee' charges on my accounts and refund any interest charged on 'late fees'. These charges are unlawful and your staff effectively tricked me into making payments at the time schedule which would cause your system to trigger those charges.

 

(6) I require from now on to keep all communications in writing (by post or with a copy of any secure message to be sent by post). This is a fair and justified request, because you have abused those electronic communications, for example, by slowly but significantly raising interest rates over time without me noticing it.

 

(7) If I previously gave you a consent to communicate with me using electronic means such as email or your 'secure messaging' service, which I neither admit or deny, I hereby withdraw such consent.

 

(8) It is my intention to act in good faith and negotiate a reasonable and fair arrangement for repayment of outstanding balances, provided that this arrangement:

 

• 
  
  • does not further increase my indebtedness
    
  • does not require me to pay more than I can reasonably afford
    

   

(9) Therefore, I ask you to accept my offer of repayments of balance in amount XX£ per month (YY£ for account XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX and ZZ£ for account XXXXXXX). This offer is subject to you agreeing to stop charging any interest charges and refraining from levying any unlawful fees. This offer will expire on XXst of August 2009. However if at a later date you wish to make an arrangement on similar terms please do not hesitate to contact me. I will be willing to discuss this matter with you subject to requirements of (8) and my financial circumstances at that time.

 

(10) Should you accept my offer please do confirm so in writing. As soon as I am in receipt of your acceptance of my offer I will set up standing order to pay agreed monthly payments. Please include details of bank accounts and references for the payments which would be made by standing order.

 

(11) Should you decline my offer I will have no choice but to either stop any payments or continue with token payments of 1£ per month until we reach a satisfactory repayment arrangements. It would be unfair and unreasonable to expect me to continue making payments which I can afford while the interest is still charged because it would mean that indebtedness is increasing with time. It would also be unreasonable and unfair to expect me to make payments which I cannot afford.

 

(12) Please do not ask me to contact debt management companies such as Payplan or CCCS. I have no intention to involve a third party in managing my financial affairs.

 

(13) I enclose schedule of my income and expenses which is, to the best of my knowledge, compliant to relevant government issued guidelines and standards used by mentioned above Payplan and CCCS. Please note that I have not included a joint account (with my partner) into the schedule, because XXXX£ debt in this account is not mine but a liability of my partner, moreover, arrangements has been made already for it to be settled/paid in full with funds coming from a third party specifically for this purpose. I also have not included any alleged debts which are to the best of my knowledge are unenforceable and are being disputed.

 

(14) Please treat this letter as a formal complaint.

 

Yours Faithfully,

 

 

Readalot.

 

some stuff here is specific for my circumstances...

any comments/suggestions are welcome

Edited July 25, 2009 by Readalot
formatting

[Mistermind]

even while I have set up standing order to make payments (out) on agreed date, I was charged 'late fees' which are clearly unlawful;

 

your representative has suggested to wait until my next bank statement comes and than contact him again, effectively further increasing my indebtedness and ensuring that further interest and 'late fee' charges would be applied in coming weeks;

 

.......................................................................................................................

 

(5) I require to reverse 'late fee' charges on my accounts and refund any interest charged on 'late fees'. These charges are unlawful and your staff effectively tricked me into making payments at the time schedule which would cause your system to trigger those charges.

 

Late Payment and Overlimit penalty charges are not unlawful in themselves. It is the exhorbitant and disproportionate amount levied which breaches the test case ruling of Dunlop v Garage 1911, in that penalty charges need to be proportionate to the quantifiable trouble caused to Egg by Late Payment and Overlimit. Egg has always paid penalty charge reclaims because they do not want to face a skilled court showdown. There is no reason why after 3 years paying out on 105 reclaims and refusing none, why they would suddenly refuse your reclaim, if you demonstrate you can see past the waffle aimed at the uninitiated.

 

Penalty charges reclaim is a legal issue completely separate from reduced payment negotiations or complaints about the behaviour of DCAs. Your letter containing 11 numbered paragraphs would tax anybody's attention span unless he was swotting for an exam or reading it believing an advantage will appear in the final paragraph.

 

Suggest you write a letter restricted to reclaiming charges only, based on the Moc1982 template letter below. Egg will volunteer to add 8% per annum Statutory Interest, they do not need to be pushed on that front. If in future further Egg penalty charges are levied by Egg's inflexible computer system, you can make additional reclaims. Egg will pay, or else -- you promise to see thousandpound-per-day Egg barrister in court and raise questions Egg prefer not to be asked let alone answered.

 

The other debt issues can go into a separate letter so as not to bog down your charges reclaim. For excessive interest rate rises against debtors in impossible straits, read the third thread below then quote same to Egg. First the resolute declaration of plans, if no joy then roll back the covers to expose the artillery ready to fire. After a show of strength you may not need to use it.

 

Good luck.

 

 

01 weeks - 30 APR 2007 - WINNING TEMPLATE LETTER - Eggmail then 2-day payout - moc1982 v Egg

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/egg/53376-e-day-victory-over-5.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/egg/172952-january-1st-government-deal.html

Edited July 26, 2009 by Mistermind
typo

[Readalot]

Mastermind, thanks for your reply. I agree with all your points. However, I am not actually trying to reclaim any of those 'charges'. Not yet anyway.

 

It was not my intention to make the letter to be easy to read. Not my problem.

 

I have a good reason to believe that I will eventually end up in court over this matter as a defendant. My goal here is to offer a reasonable payment plan which I can afford. I do not expect that egg will do anything in response on this letter. At the same time, this payment offer is quite reasonable and should they decide to play ball I'd happily continue payments on offered terms until the debt is paid off or my finances improve.

 

However, if this eventually ends up in court and I lose or settle than they they would likely end up with a payment plan which is substantially similar to what I am proposing right now. And if this is a case, than a judge might not be too inclined to award them costs.

 

The thing is. Seeing how it unfolds so far, it might be more costs effective for me to default, defend a case in court and pay ccj than try to pay the loan now, given huge interest rate and my limited abilities to repay right now. I am just giving them lots of rope to hang themselves.

 

This is simply a gambit in a longer chess play.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Readalot
spelling

[Readalot]

After reading again your replay, I now will simplify the letter and remove most mentions of 'late fees' as these are not really important here. Thanks again for your help.

[Mistermind]

Egg used to have over 2 million cardholders. This total will have fallen but still leaving a large number. From reading forum postings the more complex any letter the less will it be read let alone understood. One simple proposal made can be missed if accompanied by numerous other complaints. Egg will notice money, words they frequently just ignore, by registered post or not.

 

They appear to have computer-generated letters for every permutation of circumstance or the nearest match ("Send template letter 156B today"). Personalised and detailed attention does not come from Egg, unless it is to say no. Egg pull a number of levers in sequence to apply pressure, e.g.

 

threaten DN,

issue DN,

pass to DCA,

collectors telephoning day and night,

collector turning up on the doorstep,

going after the house if you own one,

threaten CCJ,

go for CCJ.

 

They will need to be convinced the I&E is accurate, and the offer is the highest they can get. If your offer is claimed to be similar to what a judge would adjudicate, Egg will have nothing to lose by pressing for a higher payment now. If no joy they can still go for CCJ. If you are afraid of none of the aforesaid levers, then perhaps dare Egg to sue right now. Paradoxically that may convince them their threats are toothless, so they may skip the levers and accept the offer on the table rather than waste money on gradual escalation.

 

The expensive part of your predicatment is the debit interest still accruing monthly. Yes, Egg interest will stop on a closed account sent to DCA for collection, but I have never heard in the forum of Egg stopping interest on an account still open. Anybody knows different please say so. Possibly their IT system does not allow the flexibility and discretion which you seek.

 

Once lawfully levied, debit interest will be almost impossible to challenge later. The card regulators might possibly help you to get the interest rate reduced now for reasons of hardship, but reetrospective cancellation of lawful interest previously accrued is unheard-of.

 

Good luck.

[Readalot]

 

The expensive part of your predicatment is the debit interest still accruing monthly. Yes, Egg interest will stop on a closed account sent to DCA for collection, but I have never heard in the forum of Egg stopping interest on an account still open. Anybody knows different please say so. Possibly their IT system does not allow the flexibility and discretion which you seek.

 

 

Exactly. I am looking for a best strategy which would get this interest stopped as soon as possible. And I am lacking knowledge of how things work with egg in this regard. I am prepared to deal with any actions they could take as you have mentioned. But I need the interest to be stopped ASAP.

 

Is it reasonable to expect that if they refuse my offer and no payments are forthcoming than they issue default in 3 month after and interest is frozen at this point?

[Mistermind]

Going by forum reports they will not wait for 3 months of non-payment. Just one month of non-payment and they would often send out the DN.

 

The DN is a legal final warning, which if not remedied by the deadline will enable Egg to close the account and demand the balance in full. Egg do not have to close the account, but in practice generally do. The general impression is that Egg Tower does not house a bank of telephonists to ring delinquent cardholders nonstop. Egg prefer to let DCAs do it, while their lawyers rattle the sabre.

 

I can see the regulators leaning on Egg to reduce the interest rate due to a debtor's hopeless situation, but stopping interest altogether on an ongoing account by negotiation, I very very much doubt that. If Egg do it for you, you spread the word then Egg will have to do the same for everybody.

 

If you dread the mounting interest more than court action and CCJ, then might as well give up time-consuming correspondence, just provoke Egg into immediate escalation. E.g. you could declare an intention not to pay. Egg will then issue DN (often not sending it to the cardholder), close the account, stop the interest, and commence legal proceedings if they are convinced the DCAs will not worry you.

 

It is entirely your case to run at your own tempo. Have you considered turning up at Egg Tower to speak to a big manager in person? The higher the paper-pusher the better chance of a discretionary arrangement, but I would not bank on it.

 

Good luck.

[Readalot]

Thank you for your summary of forum consensus. It would probably take me weeks of reading the forums to form my own opinion (about the consensus).

 

I'll wait now for CCA response and than consider whether I'd go for escalation of this matter.

[brokebutnotbeatn]

I can confirm that Egg recorded on my credit file DNs on my loan and credit card after one month of msised payments. Of all my creditors they are the only ones still 'undecided' regarding my DMP which has been running for 4 months now. Nothing they do appears to be enforceable so its really up to you as MM says regarding the aceleration.

[Readalot]

Turned out RM still not delivered my 2 CCA requests and SAR to egg. It was sent by registered mail about 2 weeks ago. I can get compensation from RM for lost letter eventually but for now I'll have to wait until my move to new address is complete (in 2 weeks or so) than send new CCA and SAR requests to egg. Damn.. should have sent it all special delivery...

 

On a positive note, I'll have to change my phone number due to the move and no DCA's will ever know it. Just for fun I have also changed my phone number via Egg and HSBC online systems to a 0871 number which is linked to a voice-mail. Good luck harassing me by phone

 

Now nothing left but to wait a few weeks until things settle...