Black Horse Loan & PPI DN's (case now in Court)

[mkb]

Hi

I took out a loan last year for £8000 with BH. I was also sold PPI which defo comes under mis-selling as I was self-employed.

 

I don't know if its a single premium or not cos in my paperwork it is listed seperately & has an amount of monthly repayment against it but I don't have statements to show if they apply seperate payments to it.

 

I am in financial difficulties so went to Payplan to negotiate a DMP but found they weren't particularly helpful so have written to my creditors again with my proposals for repayment.

 

Todays post brings a DN from BH for a) the loan & b) the PPI:(

 

Interestingly though, the demand to put it right by 10/08/09 PPI DN is for a much bigger amount (£1720.73) than the loan (£525.23). Now the initial PPI cost was £2763.36 plus credit charge of £1406.04, making a total cost of £4169.40 so I don't have a clue how they get the DN figure.

 

I WILL be reclaiming the PPI element but don't know which category it comes under ie. single premium or monthly.

 

I don't give a flying fig about my credit rating cos its shot to pieces anyway but can BH still note it if the policy was mis-sold?

 

Sorry its such a long one but my head is spinning & I know you wonderful caggers can help and, as always, its much appreciated

[alanalana]

Hi

I took out a loan last year for £8000 with BH. I was also sold PPI which defo comes under mis-selling as I was self-employed.

 

I don't know if its a single premium or not cos in my paperwork it is listed seperately & has an amount of monthly repayment against it but I don't have statements to show if they apply seperate payments to it.

 

I am in financial difficulties so went to Payplan to negotiate a DMP but found they weren't particularly helpful so have written to my creditors again with my proposals for repayment.

 

Todays post brings a DN from BH for a) the loan & b) the PPI:(

 

Interestingly though, the demand to put it right by 10/08/09 PPI DN is for a much bigger amount (£1720.73) than the loan (£525.23). Now the initial PPI cost was £2763.36 plus credit charge of £1406.04, making a total cost of £4169.40 so I don't have a clue how they get the DN figure.

 

I WILL be reclaiming the PPI element but don't know which category it comes under ie. single premium or monthly.

 

I don't give a flying fig about my credit rating cos its shot to pieces anyway but can BH still note it if the policy was mis-sold?

 

Sorry its such a long one but my head is spinning & I know you wonderful caggers can help and, as always, its much appreciated

 

 

Try this link for debt management....http://www.cccs.co.uk/

 

On the PPI front reclaim it as mis-sold due to you being self employed.

 

also have a look at these links re mis-selling of PPI.

 

PPI - Some Notes for Claimants..

 

For claims before 2005 and the FSA ruling from which campaign

How to tell if you’ve been mis-sold PPI

 

Quick check: were you mis-sold? - How to tell if you’ve been mis-sold PPI

 

Not sure what to say about the figures but you should submit a Subject Access Request to get all the data they hold on you.

 

Full SAR for ppi

 

Data Protection Act 1998 - Subject Access Request

 

You should request the following documents:

 

A true copy of your Consumer Credit Agreement with the Terms and Conditions that were applicable at the time you took the loan/card/mortgage.

 

Copies of all statements applicable to the loan/card/mortgage.

 

Copies of all correspondence that apply to you as a data subject ie letters, emails, faxes etc.

 

Copies of all recorded telephone calls or transcripts of the recordings.

 

A copy of the needs and demands or customer duty of care questionnaire... here is an example.

 

http://wwwa.mbna.co.uk/insurance/files/CP0608_INSU_MB_LP_S.pdf

 

Copies of any notes made by bank/loan company staff in their dealings with you as a data subject.

 

There is much more information in here that should help you along the way.

 

Mis-sold PPI? Want your money back? use these links to help

 

 

Do not be fobbed off by them citing issues such as relevant filing systems.

 

If they have any records/data on you as a data subject and it is held under your name, address, post code, account number/s or any other system where the data is identifiable to you then it is a relevant filing system. Even if it is a specific serial number on microfiche records and the serial number is applicable to you.

 

Send the SAR recorded delivery so you can track and see the date they received it they then have 40 calendar days to supply you with the information. Also use a postal order as you can also track when it was encashed.

 

If the figures on the DN are inaccurate this would IMO give them a problem if they pursue you in court but:

 

On the subject of the DN you should get good advice in this forum...

 

Debt Collection Industry

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2009 by alanalana
link added

[mkb]

Sorry if I'm being a bit dim here but do I need to send both the full SAR for PPI and the DPA 1998 - SAR? Are they not both one & the same, just worded slightly differently?

 

How does this look

 

DATA PROTECTION ACT 1998

SUBJECT ACCESS REQUEST

 

Re: Account number:

Dear Sir/Madam

Please supply me with copies of all the data which you hold on me in relation to any matter and in any form and for any period of time.

Please note that I require disclosure of any personal data which you hold on me for the entire period of my dealings with you.

The Subject Access is not limited to my transaction history and it is not limited merely to 6 years of historical information.

Additionally, where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my banking business with you.

 

In addition to the above, I also require the following:

 

A true copy of your Consumer Credit Agreement with the Terms and Conditions that were applicable at the time you took the loan/card/mortgage.

 

 

Copies of all statements applicable to the loan.

 

 

Copies of all correspondence that apply to me as a data subject i.e. letters, emails, faxes etc.

 

 

Copies of all recorded telephone calls or transcripts of the recordings.

 

 

A copy of the needs and demands or customer duty of care questionnaire.

 

 

Copies of any notes made by loan company staff in their dealings with me as a data subject.

 

If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply.

 

Yours faithfully

Edited July 25, 2009 by mkb
adding to post

[alanalana]

Just one SAR required I posted both links so you could have a choice on what to use.

 

I will try and have a look at the letter a little later as I am about to go out.

 

Quick look says it is ok.

 

aa

[mkb]

Digging through my paperwork, I found the following demands & needs questionnaire which clearly shows that I am self-employed so I'm thinking that I don't need to SAR them......would be glad of your opinions here.

 

Referring to the DN they sent me - the PPI element on the agreement is payable at £69.49 every month so, given that the agreement is only 13 months old 13x69.49 = 903.37 but the DN is claiming arrears of £1720.73!!!

Advice on how to proceed with this would be very welcome

Demands and needs questionnaire re BH PPI.doc

BH Default notice re PPI.doc

B H Agreement.doc

[andie_303]

I can't open these so can't see - but have you checked there is specific exclusion of self employed? Some companies do actually pay out to self employed so i would double check that first.

[mkb]

Hi Andie

 

1st attempt at using attachments and they don't work - aaarrrgh:mad:

 

Anyhow, after reading your post, I rung them with the query & they said that I would be covered for life, accident & sicness plus critical illness but not for unemployment so, IYHO, would I still ahve a case? I don't want to fire off the letters only to get egg on my face

[andie_303]

yes I would as they clearly did not explain there were limitations and exemtions to you so yes you still have a case.

give me 2 secs i have a letter for you

[andie_303]

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

Re: Personal loan reference:

 

I purchased the above policies from you in connection with the loans referenced above.

I believe that I was mis-sold these policies for the reason(s) given below, and wish you to investigate my complaint according to your normal complaint procedures.

 

The policy exclusions weren’t explained to me before or at the time I took out the insurance. I was therefore unable to make an informed decision as to whether this insurance was appropriate for me.

 

I now believe the insurance was unsuitable for me as I was self employed at the time I took out the policy and was not made aware of the specific exclusions relating to unemployment cover.

 

Please now investigate my complaint within the eight weeks allowed to you. I expect that you will uphold my complaint and refund all premiums paid plus both statutory and compound interest and compensation.

 

If I have not recieved a satisfactory response within 8 weeks I will forward my complaint to the small claims court where you may be liable for my costs incurred.

 

 

 

Yours Faithfully

[mkb]

Andie - thank you!! I hate doing anything that makes me look stupid & gives them the upper hand

 

As far as the DN goes, how should I approach that?

 

If they agree that I was mis-sold, do I get a refund or is it deducted from the o/s loan?

 

So many questions......

[andie_303]

Generally if the account is in arrears they credit to the loan if the account is ok they will refund direct to you. However you can fight that when it comes down to it. You need to get that sent to the customer services people in Newport - put a reminder on your calander and at the 6 week mark if you haven't heard anything send a 2 week reminder letter.

 

Don't let it go. Write to Black Horse as well saying you dispute the PPI element and therefore they should put any action relating to this on hold until they have investigated your mis-selling complaint.

[mkb]

Newport? I only have the Cardiff address or Reg office at 25 Gresham Street, London, EC2V 7HN.

I was going to use the Cardiff address & post by Special Delivery - even if it comes off the loan, £4170 is very welcome

[andie_303]

oh it my be Cardiff - St William House??

[mkb]

Yes.

 

This is what I'm gonna send by special delivery:

 

I acknowledge receipt of the default notice sent to me by post regarding the payment protection insurance (PPI).

Enclosed with this letter is a complaint regarding the PPI since I believe that I was mis-sold this policy & therefore I request that you take no further action until the issue has been resolved.

Any comments or ok to post? I have written same letter re loan DN. Will also send in same envelope to save postage costs:-D

[mkb]

Todays post brought this:

 

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8092/bhpage1aug7.jpg

 

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/6657/bhaug7page2.jpg

 

as well as a copy of the loan agreement with the demands & needs questionnaire.

 

Where do I go from here?

 

I can just about accept the lack of cover for unemployment but I am disabled with, obviously, health problems which would not be covered under this agreement. I was NOT asked about existing conditions etc although I maybe should have asked about this at the time.

Edited August 7, 2009 by mkb
.

[andie_303]

can you scan a copy of the needs and demands?

 

Typical first response from Black Horse - but you see it is not marked Final Response - it won't be cos they don't want this to go to the FOS - they are hoping you will just forget it now.

 

But you won't!!

 

If you can scan the needs and demands I will put you together another letter. Do you mind me asking about your disability? Was it diagnosed prior to the loan being taken out and can you provide documentation of this to them if needed?

[mkb]

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2157/bhdandn.jpg

 

Re disability - of course I don't mind you asking

 

I have been in receipt of DLA since about 2000 and have plenty of proof if needed. I have been awarded it for an indefinite period so, clearly, I am not going to improve

I probably even walked into their office with my stick although I can't be certain of this.

[andie_303]

Ahhh that changes everything and we should prob have gone with the pre-existing condition more so than the self employed thing. Just looking at the needs and demands now.....

[andie_303]

what a piece of crap needs and demands - no where on that does it say what their exclusions are - and handy how it is all typed - with just a signature on the bottom.

 

Did you get the leaflet they say you should have recieved explaining the exclusions? I bet not!

[mkb]

I honestly can't remember. I don't have it in my file if I did get it so, on balance, I would say probably not given it.

[andie_303]

Ammend as desired but something like this??

 

 

Dear Ms Webb,

 

Re: Personal loan reference:

 

I thank you for your response dated XX/XX/XX the contents of which are noted.

 

I read in your letter that I should have been given a leaflet detailing the policy exclusions, this has never been given to myself and therefore I still ascetain that the policy exclusions weren’t explained to me before or at the time I took out the insurance. I was therefore unable to make an informed decision as to whether this insurance was appropriate for me.

 

The needs and demands statement also does not take into account my pre-existing medical condition. I was at no point asked about any conditions I may have suffered that could have invalidated the insurances. I have enclosed documentary proof that I had such a condition prior to taking out the loan.

 

Again I allege that I have been sold insurances that I could not make use of.

 

I have also become aware that your sales person may have received commision on the sale of such policies which was not disclosed to myself at the time. Therefore the sales person may not have been acting impartially for which I am being financially penalised.

 

Please now look into my complaint again, you have until XX/XX/XX at which time the 8 weeks prescribed will be up. I expect that you will uphold my complaint and refund all premiums paid plus both statutory and compound interest and compensation.

 

If I have not recieved a satisfactory response before the above date I will forward my complaint to the small claims court where you may be liable for my costs incurred.

 

 

 

Yours Faithfully

[mkb]

Thanks Andie - letter will be off in post today

 

Have just dug out my award letter for DLA relevant to that time & it covers from Jan 04 - Jan 09

 

Does the 8 week period start from my inital letter or from their receipt of this new one?

[andie_303]

initial letter

[mkb]

This is going off today Thank you Andie for all your help - have tipped your scales

 

Dear Ms Webb,

 

I thank you for your response dated 30/07/09 the contents of which are noted.

 

I read in your letter that I should have been given a leaflet detailing the policy exclusions, this has never been given to me and therefore I still ascertain that the policy exclusions weren’t explained to me before or at the time I took out the insurance. I was therefore unable to make an informed decision as to whether this insurance was appropriate for me.

 

The needs and demands statement also does not take into account my pre-existing medical condition. I was at no point asked about any conditions I may have suffered that could have invalidated the insurances. I have enclosed documentary proof that I had such a condition prior to taking out the loan.

I also enclose proof that this condition has now been awarded for an indefinite period so this policy would never have been suitable for me.

Again I allege that I have been sold insurances that I could not make use of.

 

I have also become aware that your sales person may have received commission on the sale of such policies which was not disclosed to myself at the time. Therefore the sales person may not have been acting impartially for which I am being financially penalised.

 

Please now look into my complaint again, you have until 22/09/2009 at which time the 8 weeks prescribed will be up. I expect that you will uphold my complaint and refund all premiums paid plus both statutory and compound interest and compensation.

 

If I have not received a satisfactory response before the above date I will forward my complaint to the Financial Ombudsman.

 

 

 

Yours Faithfully

Encl. Proof of DLA covering 1)Jan 04 – Jan 09 & 2) Jan 09 for an indefinite period.

[mkb]

Andie - you mentioned a 'reminder letter' at the 6 week mark (which is rapidly approaching) if I've not heard anything.

Don't suppose you have a copy of one do ya? ;)

 

Would be ever so grateful if you would share it - thank you xx