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onandonandon

Amex - Applications - Defaults and Statutory Demands

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First post from me so sorry if I have missed anything, though firstly what a fantastic site - just knowing that there are others in the same boat and hearing what they have to say has been the biggest help- so thank you to all the posters on amex.

 

I was wondering if those in the know could shed some light on my situation and the documents from amex....

 

Long story short, I was unable to send money to amex on both a credit card and charge card which had flex select attached to it - which basically shunted off any spend over £200 on to credit., this went through all the calls from them and rma, of which none ended in a conversation, but which did end up with a statutory demand, which is what got me going.

 

I have since applied to have this set aside, based on advice her on the dispute of the debt, its calculation and the default validity.

 

Following that I CCA'd them and received only 1 page application forms for each, both with latterly attached Ts and Cs which had nothing to do with the application forms and which made no reference to them. The CCA requests were addressed to both their solicitors and also to Amex, though the reply with the below actually came from NCO

 

Attached here

Charge Card

goldcreditcardapplicationsigned.jpg

Credit Card

goldchargecardapplicationsigned.jpg

And nothing for the Flex Select

 

On these I have only received the one default here Which relates to the Flex Select alone

flexselectdefault.jpg

 

A month later I received what I think was a cancellation for both the charge and credit accounts here

cancellation.jpg

 

(Though interestingly enough a day later I received a default sums notice adding on £200 ish on the credit card)

 

And a few days after the cancellation letter this was confirmed by RMA in two separate letters asking for payment on each as the accounts had been cancelled

 

So I guess my questions are....

  1. Are the applications enforceable?
  2. Is the lack of paperwork on the Flex Select significant?
  3. Does the flex select - all purchases on the charge card over £200 being put on credit - move the charge card to a credit card?
  4. Are Amex covered by the CCA?
  5. Is the default valid
  6. Does the cancellation cover the charge and credit cards?
  7. If the letters from RMA are to be believed and both are cancelled where do I stand in terms of what Amex suggest I owe them?

 

Any thoughts on this, ideas, suggestions gratefully received

Thanks in advance

gold charge card application signed.jpg

gold credit card application signed.jpg

Edited by onandonandon

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You haven't posted the Default Notice (posted application twice). I have yet to see a valid DN from Amex, but post yours and we will have a look.

 

Alan

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Oops yes thanks for spotting that.. will post it now... thanks again

flexselectdefault.jpg

Edited by onandonandon

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You have left your name on the DN (Dear Mr ...).

 

13th March was a Friday, so if posted by 1st class mail, it is not deemed served until Tuesday 17th March (if 2nd class mail Thursday 19th). You then have 14 clear days from 18th March giving you until 1st April to repair the breach. They gave you until 27th March (only 10 days), so the DN is invalid.

 

As they cancelled/terminated the agreement on back of an invalid DN, all you are liable for is the amount stated on the DN (£59). If you have any charges on this account, then that can also make the DN invalid, because the arrears stated would be wrong.

 

Alan

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Although it is hard to read the small print, all they have sent you is a copy of your application, not your agreement. However the charge card part would not normally come under the CCA1974, only the Flex part would, but your application says Gold Credit Card Application, so that is a bit confusing.

 

It also looks as if it says "This is a credit card agreement regulated by CCA 1974", although you have blanked part of it out. Can you confirm if that is right?

 

Alan

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First post from me so sorry if I have missed anything, though firstly what a fantastic site - just knowing that there are others in the same boat and hearing what they have to say has been the biggest help- so thank you to all the posters on amex.

 

I was wondering if those in the know could shed some light on my situation and the documents from amex....

 

Long story short, I was unable to send money to amex on both a credit card and charge card which had flex select attached to it - which basically shunted off any spend over £200 on to credit., this went through all the calls from them and rma, of which none ended in a conversation, but which did end up with a statutory demand, which is what got me going.

 

I have since applied to have this set aside, based on advice her on the dispute of the debt, its calculation and the default validity.

 

Following that I CCA'd them and received only 1 page application forms for each, both with latterly attached Ts and Cs which had nothing to do with the application forms and which made no reference to them. The CCA requests were addressed to both their solicitors and also to Amex, though the reply with the below actually came from NCO

 

Attached here

Charge Card

goldcreditcardapplicationsigned.jpg

Credit Card

goldchargecardapplicationsigned.jpg

And nothing for the Flex Select

 

On these I have only received the one default here Which relates to the Flex Select alone

goldchargecardapplicationsigned.jpg

 

A month later I received what I think was a cancellation for both the charge and credit accounts here

cancellation.jpg

 

(Though interestingly enough a day later I received a default sums notice adding on £200 ish on the credit card)

 

And a few days after the cancellation letter this was confirmed by RMA in two separate letters asking for payment on each as the accounts had been cancelled

 

 

So I guess my questions are....

  1. Are the applications enforceable?
  2. Is the lack of paperwork on the Flex Select significant?
  3. Does the flex select - all purchases on the charge card over £200 being put on credit - move the charge card to a credit card?
  4. Are Amex covered by the CCA?
  5. Is the default valid
  6. Does the cancellation cover the charge and credit cards?
  7. If the letters from RMA are to be believed and both are cancelled where do I stand in terms of what Amex suggest I owe them?

Any thoughts on this, ideas, suggestions gratefully received

Thanks in advance

 

Dear onandonandon

 

The chargecard is not covered by the CCA as far as I know. Under no circumstances return the card(s) cut up or otherwise. A CAG member lost a case recently where the pursuer produced the cut-up card in court and got judgement in their favour.

 

The credit card documentation is an application and does not costitute an valid and properly executed Agreement under the CCA 1974 and is therefore unenforcable. As pointed out by alangee, the DN is also defective which means that since they have terminated the account they are constrained from enforcement. You therefore have two shots at a good defence BUT this will be down to the Judge.

 

Amex will certainly pass this around their usual DCA's; NCO/RMA, VilCol and 1 or 2 others before you end up at Brachers solicitors. Best for you to read all the Amex threads and cases on CAG and become familiar with their processes.

 

IMO it is not really worth responding to Amex DCA's since they appear to simply be instructed to collect, however if the debt is sold on then it is best to respond.

 

Amex will take this to litigation as you will note when you read the other Amex CAG threads. Some go all the way to judgement and some settled before. I have been dealing with them for 4 years and close to the end of my legal case. :wink:

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Hi Monty,

 

Thanks for that, I was reading about your "adventures" with amex and friends earlier this morning.

 

Could you give me your thoughts on the flex select part of the charge card where purchases of £200+ got pushed on to credit, also I would appreciate you take on the cancellation - it references the charge card account number at the top and copy of the letter says "account and credit card" which to me says both my charge and credit cards - but you never can tell.....

 

Thanks again for the advice

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Hi Alangee

 

Thanks for spotting the name.. removed now.

 

On the notes I mixed up Charge Card and Credit Card application, but they are both there - I had read that the flex part pushed the Charge Card in to the realms of the CCA because of the £200 thing.

 

On the Credit Card application it does say

"Credit Agreement Regulated by the CCA 1074"

It says that

I confirm that the info given is accurate

By signing I agree to the Ts and Cs

I request Amex to issue me with a card and replacement cards

I authorise additional cards as requested

I understand that the Ts and Cs form part of this agreement and that amex may decline to give me a card at its discretion.

 

However the document as far as I remember was a one pager - if you look at the bottom it suggest that the Credit Card Application is page 1/1

 

NCO did some Ts and Cs which they would have me believe were part of the application which are below and which don't look like they have anything to do with the application at all... (oh and they are unsigned by anyone!)

 

pg1sentwithgcapplicationtoccareq.jpg

pg2sentwithgcapplicationtoccareq.jpg

pg3sentwithgcapplicationtoccareq.jpg

 

Thanks again

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Hi Monty,

 

Thanks for that, I was reading about your "adventures" with amex and friends earlier this morning.

 

Could you give me your thoughts on the flex select part of the charge card where purchases of £200+ got pushed on to credit, also I would appreciate you take on the cancellation - it references the charge card account number at the top and copy of the letter says "account and credit card" which to me says both my charge and credit cards - but you never can tell.....

 

Thanks again for the advice

 

Hi, I cannot comment on the charge card. I had one myself but was a good boy and paid that one off;) I have not seen many Amex charge card issues on CAG. The site team may be able to help?

 

You will just have to sit back and wait for the action with respect to the credit card, you look to be in a good position though. I would not do anything until they issue a writ/summons. Messing about with Amex DCA's is a wast of good stamps, paper and very expensive printer ink.

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I have/had a Platinum charge card with a flex account. In theory they are two separate accounts, but Amex would take the amount to be paid from the flex account each month and add it to the charge account to be paid. I think that this is in breach of CCA1974, see one of my threads http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/amex/203117-amex-platinum-charge-card.html

 

They have sold that and a Blue CC I had to a DCA, which I am told is very unusual for Amex.

 

I also had a Gold Credit Card, which they admit they cannot even find an application for never mind an agreement, and that has gone quiet.

 

If I was you I would request a SAR to get all the information about your accounts, and ask them specifically if any of the accounts were ever securitised. See thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/202474-well-amex-declines-answer.html for more info on that.

 

Alan

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Hi Alan,

 

I agree, the DN they sent on the flex account carried the charge card acc number at the top, and like you they saw it very much as the same thing. (I think your thread is where I got the belief that the charge card should be covered by the CCA)

 

I've scanned over the securitisation thread, but not much has sunk in of it - what is the net effect of it, I mean is it good for them or me?

 

Cheers O

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I am still looking into the effects of securitisation myself, but if Amex securitised your card they probably done it through their parent company in USA. That would probably mean that your account would have been sold outright to a Special Purpose Vehicle, so that Amex would not own it, only service it. Thus they could not enforce the debt.

 

Remember that prior to November 2008, the only way they could finance their loans was through securitisation.

 

BRW (Banker Rhymes With) is the man you want to speak to on this subject.

 

Alan

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Thanks Alan,

 

I spent some "quality" time with that thread - it certainly seems if that was the case then amex would be in the doo doo. But then given the way that things are surely every bank and card would have securitised stuff.. hell I think even the milkman may have done it too!

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