Particulars of claim - Are these vague?

[citizenB]

Is there something specific ? You are a LiP and cant be expected to know all the legal jargon. TBH, I hadnt noticed the absence of the word "alleged" in defences:)

[Hungryforinfo]

CitizenB - Thanks again.

 

I am specifically looking at the word alleged in connection with an unenforceable agreement where the prescribed terms are not on the signature page of what is alleged to be an agreement! The document claimed to be an agreement is unenforceable but whether that means it is still an agreement is another matter.

 

I have accessed quite a lot of defence docs, witmess statements etc and use of the word alleged isn't used as widelyh as I thought it would be. BRW made a comment on a thread somewhere about using alleged which is why I am asking.

[citizenB]

CitizenB - Thanks again.

 

I am specifically looking at the word alleged in connection with an unenforceable agreement where the prescribed terms are not on the signature page of what is alleged to be an agreement! The document claimed to be an agreement is unenforceable but whether that means it is still an agreement is another matter.

 

I have accessed quite a lot of defence docs, witmess statements etc and use of the word alleged isn't used as widelyh as I thought it would be. BRW made a comment on a thread somewhere about using alleged which is why I am asking.

 

 

You wont go wrong by following whatever BRW has said.

[Hungryforinfo]

Hi! CitizenB on post 149 of this thread posted that in relation to printing off documents 'One of the site team has said as long as the information is from a recognised source (ie not from someone's blog :grin:) then you should be able to print off just the required bits.' This might sound strange but is the CAG library a recognised source?

 

Also does a Standard Disclosure Form N265 have to be completed for a small claims defence or can documents just be attached as Exhibits or appendices?

 

If form N265 does not need to be completed do I list out where the documents were obtained from such as a copy of the CCA was printed up from CAG library?

Edited December 17, 2009 by Hungryforinfo
Typo and minor wording change

[Hungryforinfo]

Can anyone help me locate a copy of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) containing schedule 6 if it is still valid? Schedule 6 covers prescribed terms.

 

If you are able to help with the previous post too that would be great!

[citizenB]

HFI, I think all the stuff in the library is attributable so that should be ok.

 

Just looking for the other document for you.

[citizenB]

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/57-statutes/176-consumer-credit-act-1974-and-related-regulations-

 

You will find it in the link above... you will need to scroll down a way and under the heading "Consumer Credit regulations " you will find 3 pdf files.. it is number 2

[Hungryforinfo]

CitizenB,

 

I have just followed the link and gone through the contents of the whole page and can't find the header 'Consumer Credit regulations "

 

I suspect it can be navigated to via another link and will do a search and post up here if I find it. If I haven't posted it and you find the link please let me know.

 

I may have misread what you posted on post 149 on the need to print up entire documents. You posted ' 'One of the site team has said as long as the information is from a recognised source (ie not from someone's blog :grin:) then you should be able to print off just the required bits.' I think the site team may have meant by the word 'source' the document as opposed to where that document was obtained from - does that sound right?

HFI.

[citizenB]

Consumer credit Regulations:

 

Attached Files1. Consumer Credit (Agreements to enter Prospective Agreements) (Exemptions) Regulations 1983.pdf (23.1 KB, 123 views)

 

2.Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983.pdf (246.5 KB, 315 views)

 

4. Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) (Amendment) Regulations 2004.pdf (30.8 KB, 191 views)

 

 

 

You may not be able to access the document from the links above.. but that is what you will see when you scroll down. It is the 2nd pdf file that you require (2.) .

 

I am not sure about the N265 form. As it is free to download, it might be a good idea to do so and complete the list that way. If there isnt sufficient room, then you just add a page heading it up with all the claim details who against who, at what court, date, and that it is a continuation sheet.

[Hungryforinfo]

Thanks CitizenB. I'll get to the documents shortly. A question regardng post 6 from I'vegotnomoney and post40 sillygirl1 both of which refer to statutory interest being claimed. SIllygirl 1's post says 'the Statutory interest at 8% to the date of claim from what is supposed to be (presumably) the default date can only be awarded AFTER it has gone to court, not added to the amount owed as is in this case... somebody more experienced will correct me if I am wrong here.'

 

I'vegotnomoney felt that statutory interest cannot be claimed full stop.

 

It sounds like statutory interest cannot form part of the claim itself, I just need to know what regulations apply and where I can obtain a copy if not in the CAG library.

 

A final point, does statutory interest apply iif the claim is above a certain amount or is it across the board?

[citizenB]

This should help..

 

This claim concerns an agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act, 1974. However, the Claimant claims interest pursuant to section 69 of the County Courts Act, 1984 which the Claimant should surely know they are not entitled to by virtue of the County Courts (Interest on Judgment Debts) Order, 1991 (SI 1991 No. 1184 (L. 12)) in particular section 2(3)(a), which clearly prohibits such an award:

 

· The general rule

 

2(3) Interest shall not be payable under this Order where the relevant judgment - (a) is given in proceedings to recover money due under an agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974;

[Hungryforinfo]

Citizen B,

 

As the judge has asked for all documents to be relied on to provided to the other party and the court do you think I need to locate a copy of the County Courts (Interest on Judgment Debts) Order and print off the extract from that document (i.e. that particular page) or will just copy, pasting and printing off this particular extract from this thread without locating the document suffice? I imagine County Courts (Interest on Judgment Debts) Order is a reccognised source. Hopefully this isn't a silly question - I am just trying to get clarity.

[Hungryforinfo]

If there are any unfair charges as opposed to penalty charge sin the claim is this likely to invalidate the claim?

 

If it is possible to reply to the previous post as well it would be appreciated. I have found County Courts (Interest on Judgment Debts) Order but could use some help in clarifying if I just print off the extract I want to use from that document or the whole lot given the Judge has asked for documents to b relied on.

 

HFI

[citizenB]

Have flagged your question for the site team, because I dont know the answer:)

[Hungryforinfo]

When asking for strict proof of something are there any protocols I can refer to? I am trying to find out the scope of what can be asked for in a witness statement or defence as far as strict proof. I imagine it is the big questions or it would be considered a waste of the courts time.

[citizenB]

You can ask for proof of anything in your Defence/witness statement. For example, it is for them to prove they sent a valid default notice. A template notice wont do because they can print off one that is valid in all respects.

 

Proof of posting, you obtain proof of posting that something was sent/delivered. Companies use any second rate mailing system then fall back on the rule that if it wasnt delivered.. why wasnt it returned by Royal Mail. Who is to say it wasnt returned ?

 

The one thing you dont ask for proof of or the one document you dont take will be s*ds law that it is the one thing you do actually need.

[Hungryforinfo]

Citizen B,

 

Thanks for your reply. So in the example you have given could somebody ask for proof of postage via a recorded delivery record or log entry on their files, the difference being the question is narrowing down the type of proof being asked for if you understand what I mean?

[citizenB]

Citizen B,

 

As the judge has asked for all documents to be relied on to provided to the other party and the court do you think I need to locate a copy of the County Courts (Interest on Judgment Debts) Order and print off the extract from that document (i.e. that particular page) or will just copy, pasting and printing off this particular extract from this thread without locating the document suffice? I imagine County Courts (Interest on Judgment Debts) Order is a reccognised source. Hopefully this isn't a silly question - I am just trying to get clarity.

 

HFI, in answer to the question above.. car2403 has replied......

 

 

The Court is going to have handy access to the Act, but not so handy access to the regs, so I'd suggest taking the appropriate paragraphs from them to save some time. It's sufficient to quote them, then pull out the documents if required, which usually only happens if your interpretation of them is different to the oppositions. (Unlikely, in this instance, I'd say - once a "properly trained" legal bod sees this, anyway )

 

 

Citizen B,

 

Thanks for your reply. So in the example you have given could somebody ask for proof of postage via a recorded delivery record or log entry on their files, the difference being the question is narrowing down the type of proof being asked for if you understand what I mean?

 

Do you have all the postal regs ?

[Hungryforinfo]

Citizen B,

 

Thanks for the info.

 

If anyone has the answer to the following questions please post your replies:

 

q1) Are regs the details of the Act?

 

q2) If as suggested I have at hand the relevant regs, do I need to include them in the Court bundlle?

 

q3) Having read CPR32 it says with regard to Exhbits '13.2 Court documents must not be exhibited (official copies of such documents prove themselves).' Am I right in saying that the AQ, POC and court correspondence are considered court documents and are not referenced as Exhibits but a copy of case law could be referenced as an Exhibit?

 

q4)If the documents at point 2 above are considered court documents and have to be included in the bundle how are they titled or referenced?

 

 

HFI

[Hungryforinfo]

Re the last post, I have found he CAG court bundle which includes a document section accessible via the CAG library/Guidance Notes/ 12 GOT A COURT DATE? A guide to the later stages/Then seek out the link to the basic court bundle which gives examples of what to include in the documents section. I am taking it that the relevant regs (q2 - in the last post) goes into this section,. I am assuming the same documents section includes court corres etc.

 

Re q4 of the previous post I am taking it that the docs go into the documents section and they are referenced via a Cover page indexing the documents section as per the CAG basic court bundle zip file.

 

Thanks HFI.

 

No problem HFI!

[citizenB]

Re the last post, I have found he CAG court bundle which includes a document section accessible via the CAG library/Guidance Notes/ 12 GOT A COURT DATE? A guide to the later stages/Then seek out the link to the basic court bundle which gives examples of what to include in the documents section. I am taking it that the relevant regs (q2 - in the last post) goes into this section,. I am assuming the same documents section includes court corres etc.

 

Re q4 of the previous post I am taking it that the docs go into the documents section and they are referenced via a Cover page indexing the documents section as per the CAG basic court bundle zip file.

 

Thanks HFI.

 

No problem HFI!

 

Seems to me as though you have answered your own questions.

[Hungryforinfo]

I've Got No Money commented on Post10 of this thread re the Particulars of Claim (POC) 'Well that is a beauty of a claim - I'll have a proper look at some point tomorrow - a couple of immediate thoughts they can't claim a collection charge neither can they claim statutory interest'.

 

Can anyone tell me what prevents them claiming a collection charge?

[supasnooper]

 

Can anyone tell me what prevents them claiming a collection charge?

 

If the original agreement does not contain a condition that they may do so.

 

Also, it is against the OFT guidelines for Debt Collection s2.10