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    • The Notice to Hirer does not comply with the protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule  4 . This is before I ask if Europarks have sent you a copy of the PCN they sent to Arval along with a copy of the hire agreement et. if they haven't done that either you are totally in the clear and have nothing to worry about and nothing to pay. The PCN they have sent you is supposed to be paid by you according to the Act within 21 days. The chucklebuts have stated 28 days which is the time that motorists have to pay. Such a basic and simple thing . The Act came out in 2012 and still they cannot get it right which is very good news for you. Sadly there is no point in telling them- they won't accept it because they lose their chance to make any money out of you. they are hoping that by writing to you demanding money plus sending in their  unregulated debt collectors and sixth rate solicitors that you might be so frightened as to pay them money so that you can sleep at night. Don't be surprised if some of their letters are done in coloured crayons-that's the sort of  level of people you will be dealing with. Makes great bedding for the rabbits though. Euro tend not to be that litigious but while you can safely ignore the debt collectors just keep an eye out for a possible Letter of Claim. They are pretty rare but musn't be ignored. Let us know so that you can send a suitably snotty letter to them showing that you are not afraid of them and are happy to go to Court as you like winning.  
    • They did reply to my defence stating it would fail and enclosed copies of NOA, DN Term letter and account statements. All copies of T&C's that could be reconstructions and the IP address on there resolves to the town where MBNA offices are, not my location
    • Here are 7 of our top tips to help you connect with young people who have left school or otherwise disengaged.View the full article
    • My defence was standard no paperwork:   1.The Defendant contends that the particulars of claim are generic in nature. The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r 16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made. 2. Paragraph 1 is noted. The Defendant has had a contractual relationship with MBNA Limited in the past. The Defendant does not recognise the reference number provided by the claimant within its particulars and has sought verification from the claimant who is yet to comply with requests for further information. 3. Paragraph 2 is denied. The Defendant maintains that a default notice was never received. The Claimant is put to strict proof to that a default notice was issued by MBNA Limited and received by the Defendant. 4. Paragraph 3 is denied. The Defendant is unaware of any legal assignment or Notice of Assignment allegedly served from either the Claimant or MBNA Limited. 5. On the 02/01/2023 the Defendant requested information pertaining to this claim by way of a CCA 1974 Section 78 request. The claimant is yet to respond to this request. On the 19/05/2023 a CPR 31.14 request was sent to Kearns who is yet to respond. To date, 02/06/2023, no documentation has been received. The claimant remains in default of my section 78 request. 6. It is therefore denied with regards to the Defendant owing any monies to the Claimant, the Claimant has failed to provide any evidence of proof of assignment being sent/ agreement/ balance/ breach or termination requested by CPR 31.14, therefore the Claimant is put to strict proof to: (a) show how the Defendant entered into an agreement; and (b) show and evidence the nature of breach and service of a default notice pursuant to Section 87(1) CCA1974 (c) show how the claimant has reached the amount claimed for; and (d) show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim; 7. As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed. 8. On the alternative, as the Claimant is an assignee of a debt, it is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of Section 136 of the Law of Property Act and Section 82A of the consumer credit Act 1974. 9. By reasons of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.
    • Monika the first four pages of the Private parking section have at least 12 of our members who have also been caught out on this scam site. That's around one quarter of all our current complaints. Usually we might expect two current complaints for the same park within 4 pages.  So you are in good company and have done well in appealing to McDonalds in an effort to resolve the matter without having  paid such a bunch of rogues. Most people blindly pay up. Met . Starbucks and McDonalds  are well aware of the situation and seem unwilling to make it easier for motorists to avoid getting caught. For instance, instead of photographing you, if they were honest and wanted you  to continue using their services again, they would have said "Excuse me but if you are going to go to Mc donalds from here, it will cost you £100." But no they kett quiet and are now pursuing you for probably a lot more than £100 now. They also know thst  they cannot charge anything over the amount stated on the car park signs. Their claims for £160 or £170 are unlawful yet so many pay that to avoid going to Court. When the truth is that Met are unlikely to take them to Court since they know they will lose. The PCNs are issued on airport land which is covered by Byelaws so only the driver can be pursued, not the keeper. But they keep writing to you as they do not know who was driving unless you gave it away when you appealed. Even if they know you were driving they should still lose in Court for several reasons. The reason we ask you to fill out our questionnaire is to help you if MET do decide to take you to Court in the end. Each member who visited the park may well have different experiences while there which can help when filling out a Witness statement [we will help you with that if it comes to it.] if you have thrown away the original PCN  and other paperwork you obviously haven't got a jerbil or a guinea pig as their paper makes great litter boxes for them.🙂 You can send an SAR to them to get all the information Met have on you to date. Though if you have been to several sites already, you may have done that by now. In the meantime, you will be being bombarded by illiterate debt collectors and sixth rate solicitors all threatening you with ever increasing amounts as well as being hung drawn and quartered. Their letters can all be safely ignored. On the odd chance that you may get a Letter of Claim from them just come back to us and we will get you to send a snotty letter back to them so that they know you are not happy, don't care a fig for their threats and will see them off in Court if they finally have the guts to carry on. If you do have the original PCN could you please post it up, carefully removing your name. address and car registration number but including dates and times. If not just click on the SAR to take you to the form to send to Met.
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unlawfull repudiation/recission. aknowledge termination? im confused


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Ive been reading the tale of a dodgy DN futher discussion thread with great interest,

 

However its left me more confused than when i first started:confused: (doesnt take much;-) )

Im concerned as my biggest debt has a fully compliant cca, but a DN that was invalid due to only giving 9 days to rectify the breach,and then a termination letter.ive been paying a token £1 a month on this one account just to keep tham at bay as i didnt relish the prospect of taking on some fancy barister in court with a dodgy dn ,especially as it has a fully compliant cca,I did call them when they issued the termination letter and fortunately record all my calls to creditors and they clearly told me it was terminated.would this count as me aknowledging the termination?

 

I was under the impression a dodgy dn was a full defense in law, and then only arrears on the DN could be legally chased,but from reading the other thread it would seem that its not as clear cut as that and creditors may be able to issue a new dn, tn after all if you dont formally accept the termination in writing/phone call or deed etc?

 

So is the general concensus that its best to let the creditor know you accept the termination but then run the risk of alerting them to their mistake ,or is it best to just sit it out and wait for them to start enforcement action and hope to get a decent judge who wont allow them to re issue a valid DN, TN, ?

Do the pros outweigh he cons in formally accepting the termination ,

what advantage does each senario have?

 

Which would suit my predicament the best,any help much appreciated

Edited by mak71
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My understanding is that:

 

when a default is recorded that the agreement is cancelled and is then subject to the enforcement process as laid out in the terms and conditions of the original credit provision.

 

However, if the Default is recorded incorrectly (as laid ou in statute) the the agreement is cancelled, but only the amount in arrears can be subsequently claimed against.

 

Given that the implication of this could be quite costly to them, I wouldn't expect them to give it up without a fight.

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Spamheed. thanks that was my understanding too,

 

However on the very hotly debated thread "tale of a dodgy DN futher discussions" other caggers are now saying termination on the back of a invalid dn can be overturned and re issued unless the debtor specifically aknwoledges and accepts the termination notice formally ie in writing/phone/deed etc,

in which case it would appear we are then closing this little creditor loophole off allowing them to re issue, but at the same time risking alerting them to their mistake as well.guess its catch 22

 

Im really unsure how to play this one now, just when i thought i was getting to grips with it all something else pops up in the creditors armoury.

 

Im not sure if this was just a one off bad judgement by 1 judge or case law, i know others here have beat creditors on faulty DN"s,but if this is new crditor/dca tactics its rather worrying.

Edited by mak71
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If you have a termination letter then that is it - it has been unlawfully rescinded. They cannot therefore issue a new DN on an agreement that no longer exists. The issue of a new DN only comes into play if there is no confirmation the agreement has been terminated.

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How about if they threw their toys out of the pram and cancelled card unilaterally, after stuffing them for PPI and forcing them to credit account leaving balance at £0 with an unchanged credit limit of £1700?

 

No termination, no DN. Just a note on credit report stating:

 

 

Settled xx/xx/09

 

account ended xx/xx/09

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If you have a termination letter then that is it - it has been unlawfully rescinded. They cannot therefore issue a new DN on an agreement that no longer exists. The issue of a new DN only comes into play if there is no confirmation the agreement has been terminated.

 

 

That would be my viewpoint also, thay cannot fudge the law if it is laid out in black and white.

 

Of course you do get the odd judge who doesn'tg know the entire legislation, but if the defence is correct you should walk away from this onebe able to

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How about if they threw their toys out of the pram and cancelled card unilaterally, after stuffing them for PPI and forcing them to credit account leaving balance at £0 with an unchanged credit limit of £1700?

 

No termination, no DN. Just a note on credit report stating:

 

 

Settled xx/xx/09

 

account ended xx/xx/09

 

unless i'm missing something it sounds like you've already won this one, keep a copy of the report for any chancers and contact them for a letter of clarification of the zero balance

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Your balance should have been zero because of a PPI payout / refund - Have they put any other comments on your cedit file before then? If so, I suspect that they should be removing them, as if the PPI payment occureed much earlier

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I did indeed win that one.

 

As stated above, they unlawfully ended the contract in that my card is no longer operational. They admit I have a credit limit of £1700, that I have a balance of zero but clearly dont want to do business with me.

 

I have no problem with their right to choose not to do business with me, but they must realise that there is a price to pay for breach of contract.

 

They simply cant say "bye!" just because they got found out over unlawful PPI .

 

The account offers 1% cash back on all spending, so (aside from removing all the other benefits, convienience and protections afforded by the card) I am losing out on 1% on every purchase I would have made using the card and will continue to do so, unless damages caused by their breach of contract are paid.

 

You dig what I'm saying.....?:D

 

Assuming spending of say, £3500 per year and that I live another 40 years, that adds up to a not inconsiderable sum.

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Failure of a default notice to be accurate not only invalidates the default notice (Woodchester Lease Management Services Ltd v Swain and Co - [2001] GCCR 2255) but is a unlawful rescission of contract which would not only prevent the court enforcing any alleged debt, but gives rise to a counter claim for damages Kpohraror v Woolwich Building Society [1996] 4 All ER 119

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Ive been reading the tale of a dodgy DN futher discussion thread with great interest,

 

However its left me more confused than when i first started:confused: (doesnt take much;-) )

 

I think the right answers will be on that thread in the end. It's just heavy going getting there with lot's of diverse opinions as everyone debates the point. You just have to decide which ones help and which ones hinder.

 

Pedross

Edited by pedross
Time changes everything!
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subbing - mak71 I'm in the same boat, do you acknowledge don't you:confused::confused: I agree the tale of dodge DN & discussion is great but it makes my head spin. I thought I'd learnt a lot - but when it comes to this I'm at a loss. I've had a few comments on my threads: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/197540-bos-halifax.html and http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/211323-will-wont-i-your.html if you want to take a peak.

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Hi Mak71, am at this point also! I have decided to send the letter accepting the termination, see how it pans out and just log what happens. May hopefully help the next cagger and we will eventually get somewhere - an action plan!

 

This is the letter suggested to me, in my case they have no CCA but remove that and it still does the job, telling them it was unlawful but doesn't spell out why - best of luck to you:

 

Re account XXXXXXXXXX Unlawful termination

 

I refer to your unlawful termination of the above agreement occasioned by your demand for me to pay the full outstanding balance of the account thereby unlawfully terminating the agreement.

 

You were not allowed under the CCA to demand any of the benefits of s87 without first having issued an effective default notice giving me an opportunity to remedy the alleged breach and pay any arrears claimed

 

Furthermore and notwithstanding the foregoing you were in any event prevented from enforcing the agreement by virtue of being in default of your obligations under s78 of the act

 

Even if an agreement existed, which you have stated that you have been unable to locate due to mis- filing, there was no lawful basis upon which the agreement could be terminated therefore I consider your termination of the agreement as being a repudiatory breach of contract and I formally accept the repudiation and, for the avoidance of doubt, confirm that as I have elected to accept the rescission of the contract I am therefore discharged from any ongoing liability under the former agreement. Your breach of contract gives rise to a claim for damages and Ilook forward to receiving your proposals

 

Yours faithfyully

Dipply75

 

I am in no way a legal advisor and only speak from my own experiences and the helpful advice of those in the same boat! :p

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Hi Dipply75

 

Do you have a thread if so can you post the link. When did you send the letter. It will be interesting to see what response you get and may give me courage to take the same course of action (I hope)

Good luck:)

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Hi, thread is:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/207374-rbs-defaulting-me-no.html

 

ordinary letter stating this sent to 2 depts and recorded one sent today to the dept I THINK is now delaing with me...jsu to be sure!

Dipply75

 

I am in no way a legal advisor and only speak from my own experiences and the helpful advice of those in the same boat! :p

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi, think it is good that you started this new thread. I have found the other thread 'tale of a dodgy DN further discussion' confusing as well as it is full of contradictions. I think also that some of the comments are based on a couple of very poor judgements by a DJ, which although it is good to be alerted to this is not necessarily the norm. When the thread was initially started by X20 it was extremely informative with some very good advice for anyone wishing to defend on the basis on a 'dodgy' DN, but I feel it it sometimes now very off track. I am not saying for one minute that people are not entitled to their opinions, as of course they are. Just that I don't think it is always very helpful for anyone facing court proceedings to be confused in this way. Magda

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The thread mentioned has got 2 opposite views arguing the same thing over and over:( The original thread as Magda states is, I think the one to follow.

 

i too am in a similar position with a very poor illegible copy of a CCa but a defective DN and termination letter, the case law is there for defective DN's as stated.

Advice & opinions given by spartathisis are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.:)

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well i am of the veiw that regardless of weather they send you a true original copy of your CCA or not, that once they have issued you a invalid/ineffective DN followed by a letter of termination, which you duely write back accecpting the termination of agreement. then the debt can not be enforced, neither can the Creditor issue you with a revised DN. as in order to do so they would need to be an credit agreement in place. meaning that they would have to reinstate the agreement, but in order to do so the debtor has to agree to the CCA being reinstated.

 

So in the case of if you recieve a letter stating the agreement is being reinstated (which is highly unlikley) simply write back saying you do/did not agree to the reinstatement of the original CCA. and same for if they issue you with a revised DN after they have already terminanted the cca agreement in which you accepted such termination in writing. basically after you have accepted the termintaion of the agreement based on an ineffective/invalid DN then any actions they take to try and enforce the debt is unlawful.

 

I am also of the veiw that if they terminate the agreement of the back of an ineffective/invalid DN upon which you repsone with written acceptecne to the termniation then it is infact the creditor that is in breach of contract and you are then eligibly for compensation.

 

the following statement was found by another cagger on this site and passed onto myself upon my request. thanks to cleo4patra

 

Failure of a Default or Termination Notice to be accurate not only invalidates such notice (Woodchester Lease Management Services Ltd v Swain & Co NLD 14 July 199 but it is an unlawful rescission of contract which would not only prevent the Court enforcing any alleged debt (Wilson v First County Trust Ltd (2003) UKHL 40, Wilson V Robertsons (London) Ltd(2006) EWCA Civ 1088, Wilson v Pawnbrokers (2005) EWCA Civ 147) - but would also give the claimant a claim for damages in the sum of £1000 (Kpohraror v Woolwich Building Society (1996) 4 All ER 119).

lease be advised that I will only communicate with you in writing.

 

SO there you have it.

Edited by teaboy2

Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Always seek the advice of an insured qualified professional. All my legal and nonlegal knowledge comes from either here (CAG),my own personal research and experience and/or as the result of necessity as an Employer and Businessman.

 

By using my advice in any form, you agreed to waive all rights to hold myself or any persons representing myself of any liability.

 

If you PM me, make sure to include a link to your thread as I don't give out advice in private. All PMs that are sent in missuse (including but not limited to phinishing, spam) of the PM application and/or PMs that are threatening or abusive will be reported to the Site Team and if necessary to the police and/or relevant Authority.

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duplicate post

Edited by teaboy2

Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Always seek the advice of an insured qualified professional. All my legal and nonlegal knowledge comes from either here (CAG),my own personal research and experience and/or as the result of necessity as an Employer and Businessman.

 

By using my advice in any form, you agreed to waive all rights to hold myself or any persons representing myself of any liability.

 

If you PM me, make sure to include a link to your thread as I don't give out advice in private. All PMs that are sent in missuse (including but not limited to phinishing, spam) of the PM application and/or PMs that are threatening or abusive will be reported to the Site Team and if necessary to the police and/or relevant Authority.

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"...but would also give the claimant a claim for damages in the sum of £1000 *plus the sum alleged in the void Default Notice*"

 

;)

 

yes it would but weather your likely to get all that remains to be seen

Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Always seek the advice of an insured qualified professional. All my legal and nonlegal knowledge comes from either here (CAG),my own personal research and experience and/or as the result of necessity as an Employer and Businessman.

 

By using my advice in any form, you agreed to waive all rights to hold myself or any persons representing myself of any liability.

 

If you PM me, make sure to include a link to your thread as I don't give out advice in private. All PMs that are sent in missuse (including but not limited to phinishing, spam) of the PM application and/or PMs that are threatening or abusive will be reported to the Site Team and if necessary to the police and/or relevant Authority.

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