Egg electronically signed online credit agreement. Is it a fake?

[Readalot]

Egg online credit agreement. Is it a fake?

 

At this point this is a pure speculation on my part, but I do find it strange that while lots of paper based Egg CCA's around 2005/2006 are not valid, they have online CCA for this period which are spot on and bullet-proof.

Dont you think that it s a bit strange?

 

Has anyone has a look into it? Do anyone has printouts of their online CCA's taken a few years later? If so please come forward.

 

Another suspisious thing is that at the moment they have in online CCA at the top saying that their address is Citigroup Centre, Canada Square, London. I wonder if this was the case in 2006. Does anyone has information on history of their past registered offices?

 

I would guess that they have changed their address when they were bought by GE and than conveniently amended supposedly electronically signed CCA's they publish online.

 

Should we be able to prove that they have changed a single letter at any time in these "supposedly electronicaly signed online CCA" we might than be able to prove that these "online CCA" are fake or at least force Egg to prove otherwise.

 

If you by any chance got an image of Egg online CCA for any date or paper based CCA for period 2005-2007 could you please post it here (minus personal details) or pm me.

 

What do you think? Does this line of inquiry makes any sense?

 

Is there any way to challenge Egg electronically signed agreements at all?

Could it be argued that this electronically signed agreement does not satisfy CCA requirements by some reason. Like, it is to long to fit one screen (4 corners) or something like this?

[Readalot]

Just some info I have digged up. According to archive.org. Egg.com has actually published their Consumer Credit agreements on their website all the time. Archive.org is a good tool to use if you want to see their historical credit agreements.

 

This also confirms that what they publish in online user account and represent as original Consumer Credit agreements alledgedly electronically signed by customer looks like a fake.

 

 

This is at least deception and probably fraud !!!

 

Disclaimer: the above is obviously not a statement of fact but simply my personal opinion and speculation.

[Redfish]

Tried to use that site, archive.org - but when I click on a date for egg I get lots of broken links. What did you look at??

[Readalot]

Egg Card credit agreement

 

this one for example, 20051103023119 above is a timestamp

[Redfish]

Had a look at that, wow, so their address then was 1 Waterhouse Square, 138-142 Holborn, London EC1N 2NA!

 

But still not sure where you get the timestamp??

 

Oh, I see, in the web address??

[Readalot]

see URL, it is a feature of archive.org, my best guess is that any reasonable judge would accept this as evidence.

 

probably this link would be a bit more helpful

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://new.egg.com/visitor/0,,3_11087--View_1068,00.html

[thirty-n-fat]

I have recived a simlar printout in response to a CCA on a egg personal loan.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/egg/209963-egg-loan-cca-enforceable.html#post2297270

 

However I know that the online application was for less money and I then spoke with advisors on the phone and signed the credit agreement by return of post.

 

So I know that what thery have sent is false, however I dont see that I have any way to prove this!

[Josie8]

I have recived a simlar printout in response to a CCA on a egg personal loan.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/egg/209963-egg-loan-cca-enforceable.html#post2297270

 

However I know that the online application was for less money and I then spoke with advisors on the phone and signed the credit agreement by return of post.

 

So I know that what thery have sent is false, however I dont see that I have any way to prove this!

have you made a subject access request?

[thirty-n-fat]

have you made a subject access request?

 

No, is that my next step?

 

Its 40 days of waiting and surerly they will only send another (allegedly) fake document?

[Redfish]

If you ask for all records you may get something that reveals a slip up.

[Josie8]

No, is that my next step?

 

Its 40 days of waiting and surerly they will only send another (allegedly) fake document?

 

 

They have to supply the original signed agreement if they have it

[thirty-n-fat]

I had a previosu loan with egg, this loan bascially paid off the old one and gave me extra cash. I also have a credit card that I used for fuel and then paid off in full every month with the company 30p per mile - thery have now cancelled this early last year.

 

Should I SAR all accounts or only the current loan?

[Josie8]

All accounts will come under the same sar request - just specify all numbers

[thirty-n-fat]

Ok thanks, the reason I ask is that I think HSBC were playing games on that front.

[cj10]

Egg online credit agreement. Is it a fake?

 

 

Another suspisious thing is that at the moment they have in online CCA at the top saying that their address is Citigroup Centre, Canada Square, London. I wonder if this was the case in 2006. Does anyone has information on history of their past registered offices?

 

 

My 2005 agreement shows the Citigroup address, and I too have my doubts about the validity of this.

 

Everything I have found via google suggests the above address was not used until after the Citigroup takeover. Your research is far more substantial than mine though. In potentially finding the archieved agreement from that era I think you've opened up an opportunity to begin to attack egg's credability.

[Readalot]

My 2005 agreement shows the Citigroup address, and I too have my doubts about the validity of this.

 

Everything I have found via google suggests the above address was not used until after the Citigroup takeover. Your research is far more substantial than mine though. In potentially finding the archieved agreement from that era I think you've opened up an opportunity to begin to attack egg's credability.

 

Yes, we will see how it goes. So far I am waiting for them to comply with my CCA request. Should they give me CCA with Citigroup address I will probably let them to take my to court and try to claim that I have not signed this CCA and that their version of CCA is a falsification. Should they after that produce CCA with a valid address, than I would question their credibility. If needed I'd bring a credible witnesses who is an expert in area of information security to substantiate my attacks on this electronic CCA and their concept of 'electronic signature'. But it is a very long process. All I can do for now is to try to give them as much rope as possible so that they have every opportunity to hang themselves.

 

I wish some of great legal minds here contribute their opinion on possible ways to attacks this electronic agreement and electronic signature. (considering that it is obvious that the agreement in 2005 could not have possibly contain their post 2007 address)

[Redfish]

Well I found my solicitor only takes action on harrassment, but won't take a case against lenders on unenforceability until a test case (which test case ) is decided. So I won't find out about the enforceability of this doctored agreement. Though I do now have one copy of the 'signed' agreement with the wrong address, and a copy of the unsigned agreement with the right address - and both of them with different interest rates... so looking more and more likely that this is unenforceable.

 

But I do hope someone more legal minded comes along here to help us on this.:-|

[Redfish]

Well I consulted another couple of solicitors on this egg agreement address issue, and neither of them wanted to base a case on it. The second solicitor explained that we would have to prove some detriment to me from that tampering. However, the stronger case they were happy to run with was the absence of HOW my credit limit would be determined (apparently they can argue it is insufficient to say that I will be told what it will be).

 

See my post here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2406581.html

[Mistermind]

fyi

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/191814-c-boot-other-foot-2.html#post2308661

[Readalot]

Valid point about 'true' copy.

 

However.

 

How about CCA they have to supply in response to Subject Access Request or CPR? This does need to be a copy of original, without any 'true' copy nonsense.

 

Or does it need only contain prescribed terms and if the rest is figment of their imagination than no problem?

 

How about the fact that this is a 'electronically' signed agreement where instead of the signature there is a tick? Given that it is obvious that they have modified the agreement in the address part, why shall we assume that they have not modified the tick part, or prescribed terms part, or whatever they please.

 

How about this very interesting thread? OP there claims that

 

...they [egg] provided me with a print out of my loan agreement which is totally different to the copy I hold on file and there are only tick boxes on it for signatures. I only received this paperwork after I sent the Account in Dispute letter.

 

Could be a compelling argument be based along the lines of:

 

- here is the proof that allegedly electronically signed agreement was modified in address part.

- here is a proof/affidavit that on at least one occasion egg sent CCA which is "totally different" to archive copy of original (for another customer).

- there is no proof that egg IT system complies with all the relevant document management and information security standards. (optional)

- therefore the document EGG purports to be an original electronically signed Consumer Credit Agreement cannot be admitted as evidence in this court.

- therefore there is no relevant CCA and creditors claim shall be dismissed.

 

does this all makes any sense?

[dx_]

All accounts will come under the same sar request - just specify all numbers

I asked for Egg cc and loan SAR in the same letter in August. I didn't have the loan account number at the time and they never bothered sending anything to do with the loan. Do I have to send another £10 for the loan SAR now?