ross & roberts bailiff MR Nutt WPO for CTAX - help

[sewingkit]

Hi everyone,

 

I have just gotten over the stress of having a bailliff visit me and getting me to sign a WPO for unpaid Council Tax. I lot it a bit and could not think due to the stress of the situation. I am going through redundancy at the mo and have been off sick with stress and anxiety (signed off by doctor but on on medication, yet). i alos have other serious money problems (2 AEO's one wages and a third going through soon). A real bad time at the moment....

 

I have to ask a couple of questions and wonder if anyone can help before he returns next tuesday (28th) for the initial payment of £200!!!

 

1. After having more time to thinking about it and after calming down. i cannot afford the £200, what can I do about that, cannot I call them or speak to him to re-negotiate prior to Tuesday
   
2. Can I go to the council direct and plead my case and offer a payment schedule with first payment Tuesday. I have read on here that if you offer they have to accept, is this right?
   
3. he has listed my 2 sofa's on the WPO (as well as 3 small tables, valueless!). I understand that he cannot levy on Sofa. if this is correct does this nullify the WPO?
   
4. What sort payment plan is he likely to offer me if I was to pay, etc (not that I can afford it anyway)
   

Any help would be a big relief, thank you. Off to carry on reading the main threads to get more info

 

Added:

 

I have a feeling the baillif name was Nutt or Nut, (the firm was Ross and Roberts) HOWEVER when i searched for him on the online tool the only Nutt on there, his Cert ran out 22nd July and mine was served on the 23rd?

 

I will check and call the Firm and check the name or will check on Tuesday when he comes back BUT if that is correect then am i right in saying the WPO in invalid?

 

Hmmmmmm????

 

Many thanks

Sew

 

 

regards

Sew

Edited July 24, 2009 by sewingkit
Added comment

[Maggie_moo]

What was the original debt and what fees has he charged you?

[tomtubby]

[

 

I have a feeling the baillif name was Nutt or Nut, (the firm was Ross and Roberts) HOWEVER when i searched for him on the online tool the only Nutt on there, his Cert ran out 22nd July and mine was served on the 23rd?

 

I will check and call the Firm and check the name or will check on Tuesday when he comes back BUT if that is correect then am i right in saying the WPO in invalid?

 

 

 

]

 

You will see in the STICKY section that there is a link to the new ON LINE search website where the public can check to see if the bailiff is certificated.

 

It would appear that the certificate did expire on 22nd July. In cases such as this it is best to contact the CERTIFICATING COURT (in this case Exeter) to ask them to confirm whether the certificate has been renewed or if there is a hearing date scheduled. All Courts know that they must inform the Ministry of Justice as soon as a certificate has been granted so that their new webiste is accurate. Sadly...some Courts are better than others at doing this !!

[sewingkit]

Hi maggie, thanks for the reply, as follows:

 

Arrears due to authority - £687.36

levy fee to scale schedule - £46.00

SWP Fee @£12.00 - £12.00

1st Visit fee - £24.50

2nd visit fee - £18.00

Admin fee in accordance with section H - £24.50

Total amount now due - £812.36

 

I will be checking the Arrears figure when I get to work shortly because I may not owe it.

 

Last year, some time, my mother paid £600 to the council for old CT that I think was for various parts of years (had other lodger here who had his paid by CT benefit for part of year) and I am sure in the year before that I and a AEO for another years alloacation (£136 per month they took!!!! that time)

 

I am not sure what the arraers is for,

I should have asked to see the warrant then I may know when was for and whether it was old.

I just got flustered and lost it....

Never again!

 

Not sure what the admin fee is but I think it is legit as there are loads of details on the back where within there is a H listed and a section 45(4)

 

Any help would be grateful, many thanks

 

I will check his name then I will call the court first thing

 

Just rang the bailliff to query the WPO and the furniture on there but surreptitiouly "double" checked his name and it definitely is "Nutt"

 

I will be calling the court right now

 

Crikey, the Exeter court aren't very helpful, on hold at the moment to a 3rd person!!

[hallowitch]

THE COUNCIL TAX (ADMINISTRATION AND

ENFORCEMENT) REGULATIONS 1992 (SI 1992/613 AS

AMENDED BY SI 1993/773, SI 1998/295, SI 2003/2211, SI 2006/3395 AND SI 2007/501

(SCHEDULE 5)

NOTICE OF

CHARGES CONNECTED WITH DISTRESS

1. The sum in respect of charges connected with the distress which may be aggregated under

regulation 45(2) shall be set out in the following Table-

(1)

Matters connected with distress

(2)

Charges

A For making a visit to premises with a view

to levying distress (where no levy is

made) –

i) where the visit is the first or only such

visit £24.50

ii) where the visit is the second such

visit:£18

 

2.—(1) In heads A and B of the Table to paragraph 1, "the relevant amount" with respect to a visit or a levy means—

 

• (a) where the sum due at the time of the visit or of the levy (as the case may be) does not exceed £100, £12.50,

 

• (b) where the sum due at the time of the visit or of the levy (as the case may be) exceeds that amount, 12½ per cent. on the first £100 of the sum due, 4 per cent. on the next £400, 2½ per cent. on the next £1,500, 1 per cent. on the next £8,000 and ¼ per cent. on any additional sum;
• (2) Where a charge has arisen under head B with respect to an amount, no further charge may be aggregated under heads A or B in respect of that amount.

and the sum due at any time for these purposes means so much of the amount in respect of which the liability order concerned was made as is outstanding at the time.

 

 

 

The following articles belonging to a debtor shall be exempt from distress if they are at the time of the distress in a dwellinghouse and are reasonably required for the use in the dwellinghouse of the person residing there or a member of the household-

a) beds or bedding;

b) household linen;

c) chairs or settees;

d) tables;

e) food;

f) lights or light fittings;

g) heating appliances;

h) curtains;

i) floor coverings;

j) furniture, equipment or utensils used for cooking storing or eating food;

k) refrigerators;

l) articles used for cleaning, mending, or pressing clothes;

m) articles used for cleaning the dwellinghouse;

n) furniture used for storing-

(i) clothing, bedding or household linen;

(ii) articles used for cleaning the dwellinghouse; or

(iii) utensils used for cooking or eating food;

 

o) articles used for safety in the dwellinghouse or of household articles.

 

3) The Lord Chancellor may by regulations add to the list set out in subsection (2) above, or delete or vary any of the items contained in that list.

[sewingkit]

Thanks Hallo,

 

So, doers it matter that he has put 2 (worthless) sofa and 3 various tables on the WPO. What I mean is, has it voided the WPO in total therefor void as I presume it HAS to be filled in correctly and any mistake voids it? Or, is the mistake not bothered with, irrelevant.

 

I just think that the has to be perfect as with any legal doc these days

 

-----

 

I have spoken to the Exeter County Court Centre and got nowhere with checkin his Cert. then called Council and spoke to a "court officer" or senior person in the recoveries section and she is going to call Ross and Roberts to query his Cert and get back to me.

 

Question: If he is inbetween employers (HMCS says his employer is DC Churchill) and his new cert has not been registered yet or is "in the pipeline" how does that affect his ability to serve?

 

General note:

It's funny really, I will be made redundant (in Potential Notice of Redundancy with 8 week notice period, I am definitle going) within the next 2 months and then will going on benefits (CT benefit, JSA, etc) as I will studying for some IT courses. So, when on benefits I nunderstand my payments will be nominal and low, all of this may be irreelevant. I was alos plannign to clear some of my immediate debts with the Payout incl Council tax. I will explain and show docs/proof to CT when I inevitably have to go in and speak to them about all of this.

 

Crap timing.....

 

Hallo, what do you mean by this, I understand the £24.50 and the £18 and the £12 WPO fee but not sure on the Section H legalese sentence. Is the section H thing somehtign to do with the actual arrears owed and not being able to make a payment or something, I just dont understand the part in read. I have read the Act, sort of, and the later guidelines one (twice) with the contract protocols, etc. But not sure what the H thing means? Can someone put in laymens terms please.

 

Thanks Sew

[hallowitch]

and the sum due at any time for these purposes means so much of the amount in respect of which the liability order concerned was made as is outstanding at the time

lets say the liability order is for £400 and before the walking possession order you have paid £ 200 then they can only levy on the £200 left to pay not the full liability order of £400

 

this is my understanding of this

 

section H fee posted by martin 3030

I found this announcement from ACEO;

(Association of Civil enforcement officers )

 

Fees Charged under Head H - Council Tax Following criticisms regarding the charging of fees under Head H to Schedule 5 of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 this association sought legal opinion as to the legality of such charges.

This legal opinion unequivocally stated that the Fee under Head H of Schedule 5, 'where no sale takes place by reason of payment or tender' in accordance with section 45 (4) of the regulations, is perfectly legitimate and in accordance with the regulations. Furthermore, the fixed fee, currently £24.50, is recoverable regardless of the actual costs incurred.

ACEA fully endorses the right of its member companies to charge such a fee and strongly encourages the use of such incontestable statutory fees, where appropriate

again posted by martin 3030

Where no sale takes place by reason of

payment or tender in the circumstances

referred to in regulation 45(4):

 

“Either i) £24.50 or

ii) the actual costs incurred to a

maximum of 5 per cent of the

amount in respect of which the

liability order was made.

whichever is the greater

 

posted by me

thanks for that

does this charge only apply to sized goods

 

(4) Where an authority has seized goods of the debtor in pursuance of the distress, but before sale of those goods the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender) is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount, the sale shall not be proceeded with and the goods shall be made available for collection by the debtor

in my opinion i think they can only charge this if they remove the goods

 

Distress

45.—(1) Where a liability order has been made, the authority which applied for the order may levy the appropriate amount by distress and sale of the goods of the debtor against whom the order was made.

 

(2) The appropriate amount for the purposes of paragraph (1) is the aggregate of—

(a) an amount equal to any outstanding sum which is or forms part of the amount in respect of which the liability order was made, and

(b) a sum determined in accordance with Schedule 5 in respect of charges connected with the distress.

(3) If, before any goods are seized, the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender) is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount and the levy shall not be proceeded with.

 

(4) Where an authority has seized goods of the debtor in pursuance of the distress, but before sale of those goods the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender) is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount, the sale shall not be proceeded with and the goods shall be made available for collection by the debtor.

 

(5) The person levying distress on behalf of an authority shall carry with him the written authorisation of the authority, which he shall show to the debtor if so requested; and he shall hand to the debtor or leave at the premises where the distress is levied a copy of this regulation and Schedule 5 and a memorandum setting out the appropriate amount, and shall hand to the debtor a copy of any close or walking possession agreement entered into.

 

(6) A distress may be made anywhere in England and Wales.

 

(7) A distress shall not be deemed unlawful on account of any defect or want of form in the liability order, and no person making a distress shall be deemed a trespasser on that account; and no person making a distress shall be deemed a trespasser from the beginning on account of any subsequent irregularity in making the distress, but a person sustaining special damage by reason of the subsequent irregularity may recover full satisfaction for the special damage (and no more) by proceedings in trespass or otherwise.

 

(8) The provisions of this regulation shall not affect the operation of any enactment which protects goods of any class from distress.

[hallowitch]

Question: If he is inbetween employers (HMCS says his employer is DC Churchill) and his new cert has not been registered yet or is "in the pipeline" how does that affect his ability to serve

 

(the firm was Ross and Roberts

 

if his new cert has not been regesterd with ross and roberts and that is who he working for now then he cannot collect for them untill his new cert is grantend

[sewingkit]

Thanks Hallo, I think I understand now,

[hallowitch]

As you will see, you may search by either providing the bailiffs first name, surname or employers name.

 

Could you please note that a bailiff’s certificate is valid for just 2 years.

 

If your search reveals that the bailiff is working for a different company it is important to be aware that statutory regulations laid down by Parliament state that if there are "any changes" to the certificate then the bailiff must “without delay” give notice to the Court and a new certificate will be issued to him reflecting the changes. This is vitally important because in almost all cases, the bailiff’s bond will be cancelled when he leaves his previous employer!!

i would say he is working without a bond get in touch with the council the bailiff company and your M P by phone letter and e-mail if this is correct then ALL charges should be removed

[sewingkit]

Thanks Hallo for the answer. I was inbetween postings whilst I took a call from Ross and Roberts Operation Director!!!!!! (Rob Jackson)

 

So, what he said was there was an issue with the signing (of his renewal) as he had moved from another to them. The Bailliff attended court to have it signed and apparently thye delayed it for some reason and he is due in court next week to have it signed by the judge!!!!

 

So, the WPO is most definitely invalid then!!

 

He went to suggest and offer a "deal" (I think he realised that it was serious, hence his call to me, in that their firm could loose their license) he offered to waive the levy fee (£46) and the Schedule H fee and I only pay the £42.50! And he was very understanding of my situation and has put thing on hold until 4th August until I am ready to make a payment and set up a plan, etc.

 

So, as I see it we are back to the state before he knocked on the door. I can refuse entry if he were to tun up again (he wont do though) But I now have the option of sending the Template letter saying I will not deal with the, only the Council and set up my own plan on my own terms. etc. essentially leave the Bailliffs out of the equestion altogether. yes, this will annoy them but quite frankly I cnnot even afford the £42.50.

 

I would much prefer to deal direct with the council and I also have the option to just make a payment (where that will be allocated I do not know as I owe for this year too) to them and they have to take it.

 

Also, they could also refuse to pay the bailliffs fee as they messed up the Levy so may be more inclined to help as they said when I speoke to them earlier that one of the reasons they would not take it back is because they would have to pay the fess.

 

Phew, never typed so fast...What a turn up!!!!

 

Any further views,advice or suggestions on next steps would be gratefully received

 

Many thanks for you help and support so far, I would not have been able to have done without this sites knowledge and help. I love this pace (But hate it because I get hooked and cant stop readin until 4am in the morning, lol:D)

 

Sew

 

 

.....Sorry hallo, was posting this and missed you lats comment. The guy said they still had his "Bond"

[hallowitch]

no he has not got a bond and if he is the bailiff in charge then the £42.50 visit fees should be removed

from my understanding a bailiff is assigned the liability order when it comes into the office and it is there job to visit levy collect payment e c t

well this info was only posted yesterday

On line search to check if a Bailiff is Certificated..... so i would say you are the first to use it and get a result well done

[sillygirl1]

Why not contact the court and let them know the bailiff is trying to practice without a licence... they might be interested in this and help stop another person suffering stress through his actions.

 

Also as you are on benefits the council should take back the levy in the first place.

[hallowitch]

Why not contact the court and let them know the bailiff is trying to practice without a licence... they might be interested in this and help stop another person suffering stress through his action

 

 

i totally agree with that and i would suggest you e-mail a copy of the walking possession agreement to the court

[sewingkit]

I may do that and I agree, at least he should sit at a desk and do nothing until the judge signs!

 

I will have a Martini (shaken not stirred) later and think what I shall do when he calls on the 4th, prepare a little script ready O r I may just ignore them and deal with the Council direct!

 

Mmm, shall I tell the court, that would put the cat amoungst the pigeons...ahh, the power I possess!!! Sorry, got a bit carried away there!

 

Sew

[hallowitch]

The Bailiff attended court to have it signed and apparently they delayed it for some reason and he is due in court next week to have it signed by the judge!!!!

mmm now why has it been delayed i most defiantly would e-mail a letter the court and include the WPA

[sewingkit]

Mmm, yes, I never thought about it like that, perhaps there was an issue that it is not apparent in these dealings.

 

Would I speak/see/email the Civil section?

 

Cheers Hallo

 

Sew!

[hallowitch]

i would phone the court explain what you want to send and ask who you send it to then there will no mistake and it should go to the correct person

 

its your public duty to send this you are the first person to use the new info On line search to check if a Bailiff is Certificated and get a result you have got to follow it through

 

go on you know you want to :D

[sewingkit]

Called them and send what I wanted o do and the gave me the "put it in writing" line.

 

...out comes me Word Processor!!!!!

[hallowitch]

remember to send it recorded delivery

well done

[sewingkit]

Will do,

 

Thanks for all your help and I hope someone else will benefit from this work.

 

I'll post on here how things turn out

 

Regards

Sew

[hallowitch]

I'll post on here how things turn out

 

yes please keep thread up to date it helps others that are in same position to see what happens and it may hep them