Can't see road sign which has been contravened

[simonp820]

Hi folks,

 

According to:

http://www.penaltychargenotice.co.uk/site/moving-traffic-offences/failing-to-drive-in-the-direction-shown-by-the-arrow-on-a-blue-sign/

 

The PCN must also show a picture of the sign which is essential as the offence is “failing to comply with a sign” etc

 

 

It's impossible to see the sign in my PCN (that's me in the black car!) - do I have a case?

 

Would I also be right in saying the "AHEAD ONLY" printed on the road wouldn't count as the 'blue sign'?

 

Cheers

 

Simon

[dx100uk]

so what are the two round signs on either side of the road just where your car is now?

 

dx

[simonp820]

so what are the two round signs on either side of the road just where your car is now?

 

dx

 

Can YOU see them in the photo?! You've got better eyes than me!

[Michael Browne]

Whereabouts was this?

[simonp820]

Whereabouts was this?

 

Great Russell Street, WC1, Camden (London)

[green_and_mean]

Unless there has been adjudication that I am unaware of I'm sure that there does't even need to be a photo on the PCN. The CCTV must show the vehicle passing the sign but I can't see how a picture is required on the PCN.

[dx100uk]

Unless there has been adjudication that I am unaware of I'm sure that there does't even need to be a photo on the PCN. The CCTV must show the vehicle passing the sign but I can't see how a picture is required on the PCN.

 

that's what i mean too.

 

you're the driver you should be looking at signs not needing a photo to prove they weren't there.

 

dx

[simonp820]

that's what i mean too.

 

you're the driver you should be looking at signs not needing a photo to prove they weren't there.

 

dx

 

If you've nothing useful/appropriate to add dx, please don't feel you need to! I'm not asking for moral advice - I'm clearly looking for a loophole.

[dx100uk]

which is not what cag if for.

 

dx

[Michael Browne]

Here?:

Great Russell Street, WC1, Camden - Google Maps

 

each traffic signal has blue arrow

[Fenris]

Not to sound like a preachy know-it-all, but surely the fact it's got "Ahead Only" painted in big lettering on the road would've tipped you off, no? ;-) Not that I know much about this kind of thing, but I don't think you've got much of a case there. I've never been down that street and even I can see you're not meant to be going where you're going. I know accidents sometimes happen (try navigating Norwich's one-way system when they're digging up the roads!) but I think there are some times you just have to hold up your hands and say, "You got me guv!"

[ClampingKing]

The wording AHEAD ONLY is clear. That will do as you are clearly turning right, which is a contravention in itself.

 

The traffic signals also have ahead arrows, which is confirmation for you the driver.

 

I say you have zero defence.

[simonp820]

Hi Michael,

 

That's not the junction I don't think but my original question was about the requirement that the PCN must show the sign that has been contravened - which it clearly doesn't.

 

I'm trying to save myself £60 (which is a lot of money!)

[ClampingKing]

Plus, if you look in your little pic I can see the littel white box on the traffic signal to the left. That is the sign that tells you that there is a camera watching the junction.

 

You ignored the traffic signals, the road markings and turned anyway. Take it on the chin and behave yourself next time. Loophole there isn't.

[crem]

The wording AHEAD ONLY is clear. That will do as you are clearly turning right, which is a contravention in itself.

 

The traffic signals also have ahead arrows, which is confirmation for you the driver.

 

I say you have zero defence.

 

I agree in general ClampingKing but would suggest your 2 sentences are the wrong way round. i.e. the ahead arrows denote the contravention and the "ahead only" is confirmation that you should not turn right. AFAIUI if the only instruction was the painting on the road, then this would not be enough to indicate the offence.

[ClampingKing]

I agree Crem, but how about a yellow box junction then? Only paint on the road.

[green_and_mean]

I agree Crem, but how about a yellow box junction then? Only paint on the road.

 

Yellow box junction is a contravention in itself it is not a contravention of a road sign. The actual signs that are subject to enforcement are listed in the LLA 2003.

 

London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 (c. 3)

[ClampingKing]

It's all irrelevant anyway. The sign is there. Just because the picture isn't brodcast quality doesn't detract from the fact the OP ignored the sign, the road markings and who knows, maybe a policeman handing out an audible recording of the instructions AHEAD ONLY.

 

Guilty. lock him up and crush his car.

[dx100uk]

Hi Michael,

 

That's not the junction I don't think but my original question was about the requirement that the PCN must show the sign that has been contravened - which it clearly doesn't.

 

I'm trying to save myself £60 (which is a lot of money!)

 

sadly it is the junction even down to the drainhole cover just before the ahead arrow and the lights in the door entrance on the far right hand side , even the same shaped door.

 

ofcourse the boarding from the build works has now gone since the googlecars visit. i wonder if that makes a difference.......................

 

dx:rolleyes:

[Michael Browne]

sadly it is the junction even down to the drainhole cover just before the ahead arrow and the lights in the door entrance on the far right hand side , even the same shaped door.

 

It was the only Ahead Only junction on Gt Russell St, but the OP has gone to Peppipo for a second opinion

[My Real Name]

That's not the junction I don't think but my original question was about the requirement that the PCN must show the sign that has been contravened

No such requirement exists.

 

The requirement is that the sign exists. Which it does.

[patdavies]

Whilst we seem to have established that the signs exist and thus the contravention is complete in this particular case, I would just like to point out generally that the road markings alone cannot be enforceable.

 

The TSRGD is clear, the road markings can only reinforce these signs; not replace them. There must either be

 

a) a blue 'ahead only' sign, or

b) proper (red circular) signs prohibiting any turn, or

c) traffic lights controlling the junction with an upward pointing arrow on the green aspect