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Can i just ask a question... can i only try to claim back my charges that have been issued because ive gone over my overdraft but less than £28 ie a few quid, or can i try claim back all charges....even when ive gone £100 over my agreed o/d limit?

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Can i just ask a question... can i only try to claim back my charges that have been issued because ive gone over my overdraft but less than £28 ie a few quid, or can i try claim back all charges....even when ive gone £100 over my agreed o/d limit?

 

This seems to be turning into an "irrelevant to this thread q&a session..."

 

Read around the forum... Familiarise yourself with the arguments...

 

Long and short... Your actions are pretty irrelevant... The banks are making penal charges against your account... These are unlawful... You can get them back...

If you have found this post (or any other post) useful ensure you click on the scales in the top right of that post to give credit where credit is due.:D

 

DO YOU HAVE A WEBSITE AND WANT TO PROVIDE A VALUABLE LINK TO THIS FORUM ? Go to this thread:-http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=52854

 

As ever, with (I believe most if not) all advice given on this website, I am not qualified to give any advice and you are duly warned that any decisions are your own decisions made on your own account and no liability will be accepted for any advice followed ! Use your own judgment.

Seek advice of a qualified, insured, professional if you have any doubts.

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Thank you dinghy, i know the question was irrelevant to the thread, but its alot to take in all the legal info on this site and where to find the best place to ask questions...

cheers for the answer tho!

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Would appreciate thoughts on my draft reply to Cobbetts .....

 

....also any ideas on the closing paragraph - somehow "So tell your client to give me my money back pronto!" doesn't seem quite right!!!

 

 

Dear Sirs

 

Case Re XXXXX

 

Thank you for your letter dated 12th May 2006 and I note its contents and enclosures.

 

With reference to your requests for further information, I would like to advise you that the above claim is made regarding charges made on the following account:

 

Account Name :

Sort Code :

Branch Name :

 

In addition, I attach a spreadsheet showing the dates charges were deducted from the above account, amount of each charge and type of charge made.

 

As you will no doubt be aware, the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 Section 2(e) clearly state that

 

”Terms which have the object or effect of requiring any consumer, who fails to fulfil his obligation, to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation” may be regarded as unfair.

 

It is my belief that any amount over and above that which would compensate National Westminster Bank Plc for the actual costs that it has incurred by returning a direct debit unpaid can only be considered to be a penalty.

 

In addition, my belief is reinforced that these charges are merely punitive in nature (and thus illegal) as National Westminster Bank Plc do not discriminate either between any returned direct debit amount or even individual customers in its charges.

 

 

Again under the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982, Section 15, which states:

 

“Where, under a contract for the supply of a service, the consideration for the service is not determined by the contract, left to be determined in a manner agreed by the contract or determined by the course of dealing between the parties, there is an implied term that the party contracting with the supplier will

pay a reasonable charge.”

 

Thus it would not seem unreasonable for your client (should they consider the returning of a direct debit unpaid to be a service) to provide evidence of the actual cost incurred by them on each and every occasion these charges have been made against my account.

 

In addition, I find inconvincible that the costs incurred by your client are any more costly when returning an unpaid item from a personal account than a business account and yet their charges differ, with a business customer of your clients being charged less than a personal customer. This only serves to reinforce my belief that they are punitive in nature and are not designed to reflect the costs, whatever they may be.

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Thank you dinghy, i know the question was irrelevant to the thread, but its alot to take in all the legal info on this site and where to find the best place to ask questions...

cheers for the answer tho!

 

No problems... Welcome to the site...

 

As I said before take your time to read through it... Then get on to your bank and make sure you get all your charges back...

 

Most important of all... Keep us all informed of your progress... Reading about your actions provides insight and support to others about to take the proverbial leap, whilst providing a valuable place to gain support. And if nothing else somewhere for you to vent your anger at these thieving bar-stewards !:-x

If you have found this post (or any other post) useful ensure you click on the scales in the top right of that post to give credit where credit is due.:D

 

DO YOU HAVE A WEBSITE AND WANT TO PROVIDE A VALUABLE LINK TO THIS FORUM ? Go to this thread:-http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=52854

 

As ever, with (I believe most if not) all advice given on this website, I am not qualified to give any advice and you are duly warned that any decisions are your own decisions made on your own account and no liability will be accepted for any advice followed ! Use your own judgment.

Seek advice of a qualified, insured, professional if you have any doubts.

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Would appreciate thoughts on my draft reply to Cobbetts .....

 

Nicely brought back on topic !;)

 

Give me a second to digest...

If you have found this post (or any other post) useful ensure you click on the scales in the top right of that post to give credit where credit is due.:D

 

DO YOU HAVE A WEBSITE AND WANT TO PROVIDE A VALUABLE LINK TO THIS FORUM ? Go to this thread:-http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=52854

 

As ever, with (I believe most if not) all advice given on this website, I am not qualified to give any advice and you are duly warned that any decisions are your own decisions made on your own account and no liability will be accepted for any advice followed ! Use your own judgment.

Seek advice of a qualified, insured, professional if you have any doubts.

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Just re-reading the thread... For clarification, have they actually filed a defence with the court ?

If you have found this post (or any other post) useful ensure you click on the scales in the top right of that post to give credit where credit is due.:D

 

DO YOU HAVE A WEBSITE AND WANT TO PROVIDE A VALUABLE LINK TO THIS FORUM ? Go to this thread:-http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=52854

 

As ever, with (I believe most if not) all advice given on this website, I am not qualified to give any advice and you are duly warned that any decisions are your own decisions made on your own account and no liability will be accepted for any advice followed ! Use your own judgment.

Seek advice of a qualified, insured, professional if you have any doubts.

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I would probably not be quite so verbose at this stage... They are clearly looking to see if you can provide a professional style, succinct response, and know exactly what you are claiming for.

I would probably start as you have

Dear Sirs

Case Re XXXXX

Thank you for your letter dated 12th May 2006 and I note its contents and enclosures.

With reference to your requests for further information, I would like to advise you that the above claim is made regarding charges made on the following account:

Account Name :

Sort Code :

Branch Name :

In addition, I attach a spreadsheet showing the dates charges were deducted from the above account, amount of each charge and type of charge made.

 

Then move directly on to something along these lines...

 

As I'm sure you are aware the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977, Ch. 50, s. 4 states

 

(1) A person dealing as consumer cannot by reference to any contract term be made to indemnify another person (whether a party to the contract or not) in respect of liability that may be incurred bythe other for negligence or breach of contract, except in so far as the contract term satisfies the requirement of reasonableness.

(2) This section applies whether the liability in question--

(a) is directly that of the person to be indemnified or is incurred by him vicariously;

(b) is to the person dealing as consumer or to someone else.

 

In essence clause ******** which your client is relying upon seeks to indemnify them from any losses caused due to my actions. Following the OFT's paper/report (?) in which they concluded that both the charges imposed by credit card companes were unfair and gave the opinion that this was also true of bank-charges, it is submitted that this leads to the inevitable conclusion that this clause does not satisfy the requirement of reasonableness and is intrinsically unfair as defined in section 11 (I think it's s11 but will check)

 

Furthermore the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 Section 2(e) clearly state that

”Terms which have the object or effect of requiring any consumer, who fails to fulfil his obligation, to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation” may be regarded as unfair. Clearly, following the OFT report this clause also falls foul of this legislation too.

 

Finally, the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982, Section 15, states:

“Where, under a contract for the supply of a service, the consideration for the service is not determined by the contract, left to be determined in a manner agreed by the contract or determined by the course of dealing between the parties, there is an implied term that the party contracting with the supplier will pay a reasonable charge.” Again, may I refer you back to the OFT report, which clearly states these charges to be unreasonable.

 

In return, could you please enlighten me by providing any evidence from your clients that these charges are reasonable, in particular the actual cost incurred by them on each and every occasion these charges have been made against my account.

 

I hope that my elucidation of these points can expedite a speedy and amicable solution to this problem in the very near future without the need to further trouble our overworked court system.

 

 

Yours

 

 

 

Mr mountainofdebt

 

If they have filed a defence with the court you might want to PM BankFodder or bookworm if you haven't already to let them know of their defence and also to run their eye of this response.

 

Obviously you want to ensure that you mark the letter "Without Prejudice" so that they can't bring up the correspondance in court if anything in it is in error as they are likely to do the same.

 

And please read my disclaimer below... (Not being funny but this is getting to the sharp end of the process and I don't have indemnity insurance !)

If you have found this post (or any other post) useful ensure you click on the scales in the top right of that post to give credit where credit is due.:D

 

DO YOU HAVE A WEBSITE AND WANT TO PROVIDE A VALUABLE LINK TO THIS FORUM ? Go to this thread:-http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=52854

 

As ever, with (I believe most if not) all advice given on this website, I am not qualified to give any advice and you are duly warned that any decisions are your own decisions made on your own account and no liability will be accepted for any advice followed ! Use your own judgment.

Seek advice of a qualified, insured, professional if you have any doubts.

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Personally, if I felt like it, I would just send a print of the spreadsheet and the top paragraph.

 

They know the law and if they don't, then that's their lookout.

 

They are just testing to see how far you will go and to see if it did go to court if they could run rings around you.

 

Don't give them that info.

 

Just say.

 

"I enclose a print of the spreadsheet used to calculate the money owed.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

blah."

If you feel that we have helped you, or you would like to help keep this web site running so that others can continue to get their money back, please click the donate button at the top of the forum.

Advice & opinions of Dave, The Bank Action Group and The Consumer Action Group are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability.

Use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified insured professional if you have any doubts.

 

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Add me as your friend on FaceBook - I need all the friends I can get :-(

 

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=577405151

 

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You do have a duty to attempt to resolve amicably without the use of the court though...

 

The court will frown upon a lack of communication from either side which is why IMO you want to be seen as being as helpful as possible...

 

Also, on the presumption that there is nothing wrong in the letter above, doesn't that show that you do know exactly what you are talking about and that it would be better for them to just settle ? (Granted, of course, that mountainofdebt wants to settle/get money back, rather than getting her day in court)

If you have found this post (or any other post) useful ensure you click on the scales in the top right of that post to give credit where credit is due.:D

 

DO YOU HAVE A WEBSITE AND WANT TO PROVIDE A VALUABLE LINK TO THIS FORUM ? Go to this thread:-http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=52854

 

As ever, with (I believe most if not) all advice given on this website, I am not qualified to give any advice and you are duly warned that any decisions are your own decisions made on your own account and no liability will be accepted for any advice followed ! Use your own judgment.

Seek advice of a qualified, insured, professional if you have any doubts.

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and came across this:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=5292

 

In this particular thread, it mentions CPR Part 18 requests and guess what this further information that they want from me is a CPR Part 18 request!!!

 

So would I be correct in writing back to them stating that in the circumstances I am not prepared at this stage to answer the Request and that I anticipate that the claim will be allocated to the Small CLaims Track and would not then expect to have to deal with a Part 18 request since these aere specifically excluded under Part 27 unless the court specifically orders you to do so of its own initiative.

 

The only downside to this is that they are claiming they need details of the account from which am reclaiming charges ....which I guess is fair enough as I didn't put the details in the claim but if I DO have to reply to this CPR 18 can I issue one of my own, as king them how the charges are calculated etc? If I can how do I go about it????

 

This is getting totally exciting/scary all at the same time!

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Yes to responding back, quoteing it does not apply - refer them to CPR 27.2 section 2(f)

 

I would not chance a CPR Part 18 back as of course it will not apply anyway!

 

Thirdly, do you think they really can;t find your account when they have your name, address, etc.? Come on, they have been corresponding to you for the last 4 weeks reagdring the claim. This is them just been pedantic, but you could put it in brakets at the bottom of your letter ;)

 

I have just done exactly the same..

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Yep, Corbbetts or whatever they are called. Very nicely presented with little cardboard corners stapled on their papers with their web address on.

 

Nice touch, shame my I will never use them in my life or my company now.

 

I politely told them that with all due respect Natwest must already know my account number. I also told them politely that I would not respond to a CPR18 request and referred them to CPR27.2 blah blah.

 

I think it is just a standard defence....

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Yep, Corbbetts or whatever they are called. Very nicely presented with little cardboard corners stapled on their papers with their web address on.

 

Nice touch, shame my I will never use them in my life or my company now.

 

I politely told them that with all due respect Natwest must already know my account number. I also told them politely that I would not respond to a CPR18 request and referred them to CPR27.2 blah blah.

 

I think it is just a standard defence....

 

You may need to be a little careful...

 

If I can refer you back to the discussion linked above....

 

CPR 18 is expressly excluded from the Small Claims Track (CPR 27.2)

 

BF is correct except that there is a small anomoly here.

 

This is because the claim is not at this stage on the Small Claims track. It will not be classified as a Small Claim until after the parties have filed their Allocation Questionnaires and the court has allocated it to that Track. Until then it is a "normal" claim and all the usual rules apply.

 

However it is clear that the CPR envisage that Part 18 will not apply to a Small Claim, unless the court orders of its own initiative that further information should be given. If the court wanted to do this it would put the requirement in the order it makes alocating the claim to the Small Claims Track and requiring the usual Small Claims disclosure.

 

In the circumstances I would reply to the bank that you are not prepared at this stage to answer the Request. You anticipate that the claim will be allocated to the Small CLaims Track and would not then expect to have to deal with a Part 18 request since these aere specifically excluded under Part 27 unless the court specifically orders you to do so of its own initiative.

 

If you have found this post (or any other post) useful ensure you click on the scales in the top right of that post to give credit where credit is due.:D

 

DO YOU HAVE A WEBSITE AND WANT TO PROVIDE A VALUABLE LINK TO THIS FORUM ? Go to this thread:-http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=52854

 

As ever, with (I believe most if not) all advice given on this website, I am not qualified to give any advice and you are duly warned that any decisions are your own decisions made on your own account and no liability will be accepted for any advice followed ! Use your own judgment.

Seek advice of a qualified, insured, professional if you have any doubts.

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Thank you, i have already taken that post into consideration.

 

I posted my reply yesterday... and not got my allocation questionnaire yet.

 

Good luck! We are at the same stage so please keep me informed ;)

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I've just summarised the defence document and to be honest I'm now s**t scared of losing this thing....if I do it means that I will lose £220 and to be honest that's money I really can't afford to lose.

 

As a matter of interest how long was the defence papers in your case? Mines 5 pages fully of claimant should prove this claimant should prove the other........

 

The difference between your claim and mine is that I have recieved my court allocation papers....so I can't even tell them where to go.

 

Hopefully I'll be in a more positive mood tomorrow....I know I've had a lot of help & support but at the moment am really dreading the thought of where this is going - especially as I'm not the world's most confident person (got stopped the other day by pc plod for some minor and shook for 10 minutes after he'd gone!)

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I've just summarised the defence document and to be honest I'm now s**t scared of losing this thing....if I do it means that I will lose £220 and to be honest that's money I really can't afford to lose.

 

As a matter of interest how long was the defence papers in your case? Mines 5 pages fully of claimant should prove this claimant should prove the other........

 

The difference between your claim and mine is that I have recieved my court allocation papers....so I can't even tell them where to go.

 

Hopefully I'll be in a more positive mood tomorrow....I know I've had a lot of help & support but at the moment am really dreading the thought of where this is going - especially as I'm not the world's most confident person (got stopped the other day by pc plod for some minor and shook for 10 minutes after he'd gone!)

 

If I am honest, I was happy to get the defence papers through. (mine was 5 or 6 pages too. Think about it - they want you to feel exactly like you do... they don't want you to fill in the Questionnaire, that is exactly why they have sent it before.. Mine will be here tmrw the court have told me.

 

You have done the right thing. Look at the facts, they can't and won't win, but you have got to be strong. Positive thinking. Think of the money and what you will be spending it on this summer, yeah?

 

Like you said, you have a lot of support here and this is what the forum is here for and I am in exactly the same position, so any problems and you just give me a shout!

 

Neo

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I've just summarised the defence document and to be honest I'm now s**t scared of losing this thing....if I do it means that I will lose £220 and to be honest that's money I really can't afford to lose.

 

As a matter of interest how long was the defence papers in your case? Mines 5 pages fully of claimant should prove this claimant should prove the other........

 

The difference between your claim and mine is that I have recieved my court allocation papers....so I can't even tell them where to go.

 

Hopefully I'll be in a more positive mood tomorrow....I know I've had a lot of help & support but at the moment am really dreading the thought of where this is going - especially as I'm not the world's most confident person (got stopped the other day by pc plod for some minor and shook for 10 minutes after he'd gone!)

 

Really hope you've woken in a more positive mood this morning... You'll find it extremely difficult to find anyone on here who thinks there's any chance of you losing. Keep strong. IMHO you will have your settlement offer through soon.

 

Unfortunately this is the game the banks/lawyers for the banks play to get you feeling exactly like this so that you do give up. Do not let them win.

 

Keep the faith.

If you have found this post (or any other post) useful ensure you click on the scales in the top right of that post to give credit where credit is due.:D

 

DO YOU HAVE A WEBSITE AND WANT TO PROVIDE A VALUABLE LINK TO THIS FORUM ? Go to this thread:-http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=52854

 

As ever, with (I believe most if not) all advice given on this website, I am not qualified to give any advice and you are duly warned that any decisions are your own decisions made on your own account and no liability will be accepted for any advice followed ! Use your own judgment.

Seek advice of a qualified, insured, professional if you have any doubts.

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I'm at exactly the same stage myself with Corbbetts. Sent back an amended particulars of claim and a part 18 request of my own today. It seems we are all getting a stock defence saying that they can't plead to this or that and asking for further particulars, telling us what we have to prove etc. To be fair this is probably because we all used MCOL which gives hardly any space to put in the information that the defendant needs to be able to put in a proper and detailed defence.

 

The details of the accounts, etc. is easy to provide to them. The details of each and every charge, date, etc (if they asked you all for it - they did me) should all be to hand anyway if you did the excel spreadsheet to work out your charges and the interest.

 

The slightly more difficult (but by no means insurmountable) questions are probably the ones asking you to provide details of the contract, the sections of the various acts you are relying on etc. etc. and the part in the defence about the charges being for the provision of banking services and therefore not subject to the legislation or common law we are pleading.

 

I'm a bit pushed for time now but I hope to be back to this thread this evening and will be happyto help anyone then if required :)

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Thanks guys for your words of support....am feeling abit happier today but not totally confident of where this is going.

 

Anyway I was wondering about this today in work.....

 

 

What would be the response if I wrote this to their CPR 18 request:

 

Thank you for your letter dated 12th May 2006 and I note its enclosures.

 

However I am not prepared to answer the question in paragraph 4 of your request for further information as I anticpate that the claim will be allocated onto the small claims track and would anticipate not having to deal with a Part 18 request since these aere specifically excluded under Part 27 unless the court specifically orders me to do so of its own initiative.

 

However in the interests that this matter can be resolved amicably, I am prepared to confirm that the claim is made regarding charges made on the following account:

 

Account Name :

Sort Code :

Branch Name :

 

In addition, I attach a spreadsheet showing the dates charges were deducted from the above account, amount of each charge and type of charge made.

 

No doubt your client will now be able to confirm that

 

a) the relationship between your client and myself

 

b) that the amount of charges deducted from my account equate to the sum that I am claiming in the above case without interest or court charges being taken into consideration.

 

 

 

Again not sue how to end so opinions would be (once more!) appreciated.

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Hi Mountainofdebt. Can you let us know exactly what questions are asked of you in the defence and the part 18 request?

 

I know its a drag for you to post them here (pm me if you like) but, as has been said in this post, we are getting to the sharp end of all this and I would like to be able to see exactly what they have asked of you before I respond.

 

It may be that they have asked exactly the same questions as they have asked me - if so there are two possible approaches that I will be happy to discuss with you.

 

All the best - chin up :)

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The solicitors have asked for the following:

 

1. To what account(s) (giving details of the account name, number and sort code) were the charges applied

 

2.In relation to each chare alledged to have been overcharged please identify a)teh date when the charge was charged b) the amount of the same and c) the reasons(s) given for the charging of the same

 

and this is the realbit that concerns/frightens me

 

3) In your claim you state that the charges are : "invalid under the Unfair (contracts) terms act 1977 s.4 and under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 Para 8 and Sch.2 (1)(e) and unreasonable within the meaning od the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 s.15

 

4. Please specify all of the facts relied on by the claimant in support of the contentions in paragraph 3 above.

 

I can send you a scanned copy of the defence if this would help.

 

Thanks in advance.

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