1993 Terms & Conditions!!!Worth Reading!!!

[middenmess]

Sent SAR and received partial response including signed copy of 1993 Application Form so sent off CAA request and received a letter and the T & C's from 1993 today.

 

As well as possibly being interesting from the point of view that it again demonstrates that Barclays [and most other Banks?] do keep data for a considerable amount of time it might be of interest to others who need to see a copy of T & C's from 1993.

 

It also gives me a couple of questions which I'm sure some of you can answer.

 

1] The writer tells me that 'Under Section 78, we must supply you with a copy of your executed agreement and a statement of account which is practicable to refer'

Q. Is there a difference between a 'copy' and a 'true copy' as I believe the CCA Act of 1974 requires a 'True Copy'

He continues..'a copy of your current Barclaycard Credit Agreement will be sent under separate cover.'

Q. Is a sending a copy of my current agreement the same as sending me a copy of my executed agreement to which he refers in a previous paragraph?

Q. '...practicable to refer' is there a word or words missing here as that doesn't seem to make sense to me?'

 

The T & C's

I have to assume that these are possibly a credible reconstruction due to the differences in the page headings as the first un-numbered page has a small heading at top left of..

 

'Barclaycard Agreement--A copy for your records'

 

Whilst across the centre of the next page in a much larger font is

 

Barclaycard Conditions Of Use

A Copy for your records

 

 

There is then a large space before Refunds & Claims at number 11 carries on from Limitatation Of Liability which was numbered as 10 on the previous page.

 

There is also a gap running across all 3 columns of the page on the first sheet just below 3.Credit Limit And Charges [as well as a one column space under 1.Definitions]

The large empty space under the box titled 'Your Right To Cancel' also seems at odds with a professional page layout.

 

Q.Although perfectly legible and at first glance complete, is this a reconstruction and if it is would it be acceptable as original or a true copy?

 

Reading through these two pages of mixed 'Conditions Of Use' and 'Agreement' with my untrained eye,I picked up on this section as probably being the most interesting section..

I await the arrival of the 'executed agreement' with bated breath!!

 

What do other caggers think of these pages?

[middenmess]

Today I received as promised 'under separate cover' my current Barclaycard Credit Agreement which I have scanned below..

 

and on the back

http://photo-sharing.winsoftmagic.com/1/rd42bv7px3.jpg

 

Sooo disappointing to receive a double sided copy of

 

Barclaycard Conditions

Credit card Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

When the first letter from my opening post told me that Barclaycard would supply me with a copy of my executed agreement and that a copy of my Current Credit Agreement would be sent in this separate cover.Even the writer states that enclosed is a 'copy of your Barclaycard Terms and Conditions'

 

So many ways it seems to interpret Agreement,Executed Agreement,and Credit Agreement etc.

 

It would seem therefore that a SAR produces more than a CCA request

 

http://photo-hosting.winsoftmagic.com/1/eyuq21iud8.jpg

http://photo-hosting.winsoftmagic.com/1/u8jyg568cj.jpg

http://photo-hosting.winsoftmagic.com/1/v8h0kruqi8.jpg

 

Anyway back to the Barclaycard conditions posted at start of post--

 

Why under 'APR' does it say 'Not applicable see below'

 

Under 'Annual Interest Rates [Variable] does 'Standard Rate 24.9% p.a.' mean a basic rate or is this the actual APR /compounded interest rate?

 

Under 'Changes To The APR' what does 'The APR shown above etc.' mean as there is no APR shown above?

 

As maths is way off being my strongest suit I apologise if the answers to these questions are obvious [they're not to me!!]

Edited July 25, 2009 by middenmess
wrong location for link to conditions

[slick132]

Re APR "not applicable", is this because there are 2 possible rates - Standard and Cash rates.

 

Have you read this - http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/51-guidance-notes/233-interest-tutorial

[middenmess]

Re APR "not applicable", is this because there are 2 possible rates - Standard and Cash rates.

 

I would have thought that an APR was still applicable but I admit that I find all the terms and explanations concerning interest somewhat confusing!

 

Have you read this - http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/51-guidance-notes/233-interest-tutorial

 

 

Yep,about a dozen times and only a small amount of what is written there has sunk in!!!

In common with many others, I expect, if I think that something instruction wise or a written explanation is going to be complicated and therefore difficult to understand ,for some reason it then becomes impossible to comprehend and the brain is unable to 'take it in' and more or less refuses to acquire that information.

Not sure if I've explained that satisfactorily but I'm sure that others with a similar problem will know what I mean--I expect that there is a medical explanation or term for it!

You should see me with the instructions for self assembly furniture!!!!

[slick132]

Hi MM,

 

OK point taken, but we all suffer from this to varying degrees.

 

But this is a self-help forum where we try to point you in the right direction, without doing it for you. Anyway, ........

 

Under 'Changes To The APR' what does 'The APR shown above etc.' mean as there is no APR shown above?

This just goes to show that the T&C's they've sent you are not specifically related to those which applied when the card was issued. In the T&C's above, Section 8 relates to you keeping a PIN No. safe - not likely to apply when the card was issued way back in 1993 !!

 

If there are 2 a/c's (Mastercard and Visa a/c's) they need to be d/w separately on 2 threads. However, you have already started 6 threads here in the BC forum.

 

Please decide which threads you'll use from now on, and stick to those. Tell me if you want a thread title changed, to show which is for Visa and which is for Mastercard.

[middenmess]

Hi Slick-thanks for looking in.

 

Mastercard was paid off some time back so now that all of my late charges have been refunded it is not an issue so there will not be a new thread for that card!

 

Just got to decide now if what they have sent me above and the signed 'Agreement' that I had with my SAR

 

http://photo-hosting.winsoftmagic.com/1/eyuq21iud8.jpg

 

for the Visa card is not what they need to enforce payment other than by them taking me to court.

 

So 'in dispute' letter it is then!

[slick132]

Hi MM,

 

Was the doc't posted in #6 above an application for both a Visa and a Mastercard, or have BC copied applications from 2 a/c's onto 1 CCA request reply.

 

Were there any other doc'ts related to this one - the Prescribed Terms aren't there.

[middenmess]

Hi Slick,

 

 

Application posted at #6 above might or might not be a copy of the application form that I used to apply for a card and a Mastercard back in 1993.

I have absolutely no way of knowing if this is a genuine copy of my original application form or whether it is some reconstruction or amalgamation kept as a form of reference by Barclays.

 

This brings up the justifiable argument of

 

1] what is the relationship between an 'original document' a 'true copy' a 'copy with permissible omissions' a 'copy of a copy' a photocopy of any of the above or a microfiche copy of any of them?

 

2] On whose word or authority is a document,in this instance a CCA certified to be the genuine original item.

 

If it can be proven that Barclays have destroyed the original and only now keep a copy,would the word,even under oath,of the person who copied and then destroyed the original,be accepted as proof that what they copied was the original document as that person would have no possible way of knowing that what they were copying [or destroying] was an original item in the first place?

 

The same concerns would still be relevent even if the 'original' [who would know?] was produced.

 

Possibly the word of the original signee from Barclays might carry a little weight but a large pinch of salt would have to be taken with that assertation as in every instance it would be asking that individual to remember one signing out of possibly many thousands and over 16 years ago in this case!

[slick132]

Hi MM,

 

If it comes to the crunch, a court will decide if the document produced is, in fact, one which the court is prepared to enforce.

 

If vital aspects of the agreement are missing, then a judge should dismiss a claim based on such agreement.

 

In many cases where solicitors issue proceedings based on dodgy doc'ts, when a CAGger makes a decent defence against the claim, the sol'rs back down.

 

But it's up to the judge on the day.

[Rhia]

I was in front of a Judge with MBNA 2/3 years ago now and MBNA produced some office manager who gave his word the doc was a true copy and the Judge accepted it even though there were heaps of things wrong. This is what we're up against if the bank says it's correct then the Judge will accept it. Or at least SOME Judges will accept it.

[middenmess]

I was in front of a Judge with MBNA 2/3 years ago now and MBNA produced some office manager who gave his word the doc was a true copy and the Judge accepted it even though there were heaps of things wrong. This is what we're up against if the bank says it's correct then the Judge will accept it. Or at least SOME Judges will accept it.

 

I'd like to believe that when the present OFT V Bank's Unfair Charges case is finally resolved in the OFT's favour and coupled with the disastrous way in which the Bank's have been shown to conduct their business in the past, the majority of the judiciary will no longer take the word of any member of the Banking fraternity at face value especially in connection with any legal proceedings.

 

I'm afraid that should a judge have sided so wrongly with the Bank as they seem to have done in your case,I would have probably ended up down below in the cells for contempt of court after arguing that decision!

 

It also demonstrates the advantage of having plenty of pennies behind you and having sufficient funds [and a 100% conviction that you are right] to enable you to engage counsel to argue your case for you but sadly that is but a distant dream for 99.9% of all litigants.

[Rhia]

I absolutely agree. I managed to get a counsel for another case involving a DCA and they backed off faster than Lewis Hamilton at the start line.

I agree with your summising here - yes if OFT prove they are unfair it ought to persuade the banks just to pay up and stop the need for court action anyway. The judge in my case actually said if he allowed me this case he would be inundated!!

[middenmess]

Hi Rhia

 

I'm a complete numpty when it comes to the Law and Courts etc.so perhaps you can tell me if you can appeal a civil court decision like yours with MBNA as it would seem just by what you have just stated that the Judge said would be grounds enough let alone his mis understanding of the 1974 CCA.

[Rhia]

Yes you can and I started the appeal as everyone concerned was so shocked. However I became very ill (I was very il during the case) and ended up in hospital so I had to stop the appeal as there was no way of knowing if I would be well enough to continue.

 

The judge concerned was utterly perverse he just did not want litigants in person in his court. I think I was very unlucky as many people have had good judges. It's a gamble.

[middenmess]

''However I became very ill (I was very ill during the case) and ended up in hospital so I had to stop the appeal as there was no way of knowing if I would be well enough to continue.''

 

Sorry to hear that you have been ill and I hope that you have made a good recovery.

 

I'm thinking 'Lottery' rather than 'Gamble' when it comes to the appointed Judge--apart from the opposition telling bare faced lies it's the only aspect of litigation that we have no control over at all.

[bazaar]

Hi MM, in your post 2, the new t & C's clearly state at the top 'and you the person who signed the agreement'. OK wheres the signed document then?

[middenmess]

Hi MM, in your post 2, the new t & C's clearly state at the top 'and you the person who signed the agreement'. OK wheres the signed document then?

 

Hi Bazar

 

These three links from post 2

 

 

http://photo-hosting.winsoftmagic.com/1/eyuq21iud8.jpg

http://photo-hosting.winsoftmagic.com/1/u8jyg568cj.jpg

http://photo-hosting.winsoftmagic.com/1/v8h0kruqi8.jpg

[bazaar]

So Thats the application form, hence the word 'Application' and the moisten and seal along the edges.

No sign of an executed agreement then?

[middenmess]

Hi Bazaar-----nope that's it.

 

 

Application form

-nought on back

-partially unreadable

-for two credit cards so possibly needs two sets of terms

-no terms for PPI

 

But

 

Barclays think that is pukka!

 

And one day I might well receive the rest of my data from my SAR!

[middenmess]

Have kept writing to Barclaycard about their failure to give me a ''true copy'' of my CCA and today in response to one of my latest letters I received the usual

''This completes our obligation'' letter

and stapled to it is a landscape layout A4 sheet with one side blank apart from having stamped on it....1992 BARCLAYCARD T/C

 

and then on the other side headed...Barclaycard Conditions of Use

http://photo-hosting.winsoftmagic.com/1/214aqbkg71.jpg

which a similar but slightly different version of what they have already sent me back in July under the heading of

Barclaycard Agreement

http://photo-sharing.winsoftmagic.com/1/zrti074k5e.jpg single sided sheet of ''Agreement'' received in July.

http://photo-sharing.winsoftmagic.com/1/96dzxxlp99.jpg other single sided sheet of ''Agreement'' received in July

 

Compare these two single sided sheets of portrait A4 with what I have just received--minor differences like the APR's are all different but important differences all the same.

What are they playing at?:?

Prehaps the next ones that I receive will have room for their signature box on it:D

[slick132]

Hi MM, Looking in as requested.

 

These are all just different sets of T&C's, aren't they ?

 

Is there any document or credit agreement from BC which actually has your signature on it.

 

[middenmess]

Hi MM, Looking in as requested.

 

These are all just different sets of T&C's, aren't they ?

 

Is there any document or credit agreement from BC which actually has your signature on it.

 

 

Thanks for your time slick.

 

Yes,they're different T & C's from 1992 & 1993 with different APR's and a few different words--both supposed to be mine apparently:confused::grin:

 

Only thing I signed was the application form which has 'Moisten and seal' along the edges.

http://photo-hosting.winsoftmagic.com/1/eyuq21iud8.jpg

[slick132]

Hi MM,

 

This would perhaps fail the criterion concerning legibility.

 

Also, does it contain any of the prescribed terms - you can check this with the thread at Link No5 in my signature.

 

[middenmess]

Hi MM,

 

This would perhaps fail the criterion concerning legibility.

 

Also, does it contain any of the prescribed terms - you can check this with the thread at Link No5 in my signature.

 

 

No terms.

 

I sent another letter [the forth] by SD informing them that they had continually failed to supply a true copy of the executed agreement I had requested under the CCA 1974 and that as such the interest and over limit fees since that time should be removed forthwith and that the bombardment of phone calls was unacceptable and one more will result in complaints to all and sundry.

 

8 of the 14 days that I allowed them to remedy their faults by have since passed and all I have received so far and dated before my letter, is my monthly statement with new charges on and the information on it that Mercers have now been unleashed to deal with my account.

 

The last 4 calls from them requesting payment have been fielded by requesting details of their complaints procedure-resulting in

'We don't have anything to send out''

'No,we don't do that'

& two 'yes I'll do thats' which hasn't resulted in anything being sent to me.

 

I'll post their next letter up if and when I receive it.

[slick132]

Are you using TruCall yet. The Consumer Forums - Telephone Recorders reviews.

 

Tell them all their calls are now being logged and recorded for complaints to FOS and Ofcom.