mkb v Citi

[mkb]

Hi

Well, I've truly got myself tied up in knots with this one Having read through just about every post, I don't know what is best to ask for.

 

Background:

 

199?? - got Associates Visa card

Late payments off & on hence charges over the years but more recently making reduced payments but have now missed the last 3 (can't pay, not won't pay!!)

 

Questions:

 

I want to find out if account enforceable so sending CCA - is this right?

If it's unenforceable, will I stand any cats chance of getting back any charges I did pay or is that just storing up more trouble for me?

If I decide to claim charges then I need to send SAR - is this right?

If I managed to get charges back, would this just reduce the balance that was owed or, if its unenforceable would I get a refund to me rather than to the account?

If an agreement is unenforceable, does that mean we can reclaim all the payments that were ever made - hopeful here rather than expectant!

 

I want to get this right & would rather have the facts instead of me going ahead & just hoping I get it in the right order

 

Thanks for any info/reassurance

Edited July 30, 2009 by mkb
change of title

[maroondevo52]

Hi,

 

Think it's either one or the other, regarding the CCA or SAR.

 

Trying to get back charges when there is no CCA could be looked on as false enrichment by the courts.

 

If you go the charges route, they will more than likely reduce the debt, I think you can insist they pay you direct, telling them if they don't you will continue with court action.

 

I know when I went through FOS, they told me the bank could take the charges repayment to reduce the debt. Whether thats correct or not, I don't know.

 

Sending a SAR will get you a list of charges.

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

[Enron]

Citi are a bit stubborn to claim against, however its worth a go, though they are likely to request for a stay.... unless you claim hardship in which case your claim/complaint would proceed with the Court/FOS.

 

It is likely that the amount of penalty charges would be deducted from any amount due, even where accounts have been sold onto third party DCAs Citi normally pay them - just another dirty little trick from the company everyone loves.

 

Yep, you can't do both unfortunately. Has to be a case of either claiming charges, or going down the CCA route - as the above post mentions to do both at the same time would be considerred unjust enrichment.

 

You should be able to obtain your statements relatively easily, however they are a nightmare for producing CCA requests - normally posting a copy of a recent Terms & Conditions which does not comply to s78(1) and regulations, insisting that they are the executed agreement.

[mkb]

Thnaks guys.

 

I decided to go the CCA route even tho it's a bigger pain because if any agreement unenforceable, I get a much greater benefit than claiming illegal charges

 

CCA request posted today by recorded delivery so time up on 10th Aug (allowing for weekends).

[Enron]

As with all these things the final decision is up to you.

 

The forum does not condone the avoidance of debt, however if the executed agreement which you signed is unenforceable in as much as it lacks prescribed terms and was signed before April 2007 then a court is precluded from making an enforcement order against you - its up to you as to whether you wish to continue making any form of payment.

 

In this instance the only problem here is that you will struggle to get a copy of it out of Citi, should the fail to comply or sent you a copy of recent terms & conditions - a complaint to trading standards to request their assistance in obtaining a copy of this document you are legally entitled to and the OFT will normally work.

 

A word of warning, Citi even if they do not comply are likely to continue to enforce the agreement against you regardless of law and regulations.

[mkb]

Got a letter from Moorcroft today who 'have been instructed by Citicards to collect overdue debt' blah blah.

 

2 problems

 

a) Citi have not yet responded to my CCA request but 12 + 2 days are not up until Aug 4th so don't know what to send Moorcroft in the meantime as technically, on this point, Citi have not failed to comply

 

b) On sorting through loads of paperwork yesterday, I found a TN so really don't know what to do now

 

Please can anyone advise?

Citi copy of TN dated 4th July.doc

Edited July 30, 2009 by mkb
change of title

[Enron]

Wait till 5th August then reply.

 

Like I said Citi will continue to operate the account as normal, which will include trying to collect on it.

 

Thing is once they default on your request, they are legally barred from enforcing the agreement against you at all - though Citi will take no notice.

 

I've got the OFT clarification if you want it.

 

In time it is likely that Citi will send you a recent copy of their Terms & Conditions trying to pass them off as your executed agreement..... sure T&C can constitute and agreement - but not the executed agreement which you signed on opening applying for the account.

[mkb]

OK - I am now officially furious with Citi

 

I decided I'd better check my credit report & found this:

 

CITIFINANCIAL EURO...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Company name:

CITIFINANCIAL EUROPE PLC

Account type:

Credit card / Store card

Started:

/2001

Default Balance:

£1,5xx

Current Balance:

£1,5xx

 

 

Defaulted On:

30/06/2009

File Updated for the Period to:

02/08/2009

 

 

 

 

 

So they have defaulted me then I find this under previous searches:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Searched on:

 

29/04/2009

 

Searched By:

 

CIT GROUP (UK) LTD

 

Application Type:

 

Personal Loan

 

 

 

 

I HAVE NEVER APPLIED FOR A LOAN !!!!!!!!

 

OOOOOO - roll on Aug 10th which is the 12 + 2 days to get my CCA back.....

Edited August 6, 2009 by Rooster-UK
Libellous comment removed.

[mkb]

Sorry mods - didn't mean to swear!

[mkb]

No response at all from Citi so A/C in dispute letter posted yesterday to Citi.

 

Today I get a letter from Moorcroft (below)

 

Not worried about threats but wondered if I should be doing anything else about this or do I ignore until enforceable CCA produced by Citi? I have not corresponded with M/Croft about this at all.

 

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5372/moorcroftaug13.jpg

[Enron]

Moorcrofts letter is likely just scare tactics.

 

Would be tempted to complain to the OFT, sending a copy of that Moorcroft letter as it clearly indicates that they are trying to enforce the agreement at a period they are legally barred from doing so - i.e. they haven't produced a copy of your executed agreement.

 

Might also be worth writing to Citi to state that you have written to the OFT because they are clearly attempting to collect on the account whilst s78(6) CCA is active.

[mkb]

Got this today!

 

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/9304/returnofpoaug21.jpg

 

BUT.....I sent Citi my CCA request on 22/07/09 by recorded delivery. They never signed for it so I checked with post office & they banked my £1 PO on 28/07/09!

Dispute letter posted 12/08/09 then same rigmarole with Moorcroft (who at least have returned the £1 )

 

I posted my Citi letters to

Citfinancial Europe plc

PO Box 54

Salford Quays

Manchester

M5 3BP

 

but the Moorcroft letter says it should go to London address.

 

 

Do I need to start again

[the_shadow]

Got this today!

 

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/9304/returnofpoaug21.jpg

 

BUT.....I sent Citi my CCA request on 22/07/09 by recorded delivery. They never signed for it so I checked with post office & they banked my £1 PO on 28/07/09!

Dispute letter posted 12/08/09 then same rigmarole with Moorcroft (who at least have returned the £1 )

 

I posted my Citi letters to

Citfinancial Europe plc

PO Box 54

Salford Quays

Manchester

M5 3BP

 

but the Moorcroft letter says it should go to London address.

 

 

Do I need to start again

 

did you CCA Moorcroft???????

 

You need to tell moorcroft that you are in dispute with Citi due to their non-compliance with your original s78 request and leave it at that in my humble opinion.

 

letter can be found in the DCA templates library. Hmm the DCA templates bit isnt working.. oh well the library is here http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors.html Letter 17 and send recorded delivery.....

 

S.

[mkb]

Citi sent me a termination letter then got letter from Moorcroft so CCA to Citi first then when I was ignored, same to M'Croft.

 

Have already sent dispute letter to Citi.

 

Will send again to M'croft.

 

Thanks

[the_shadow]

Citi sent me a termination letter then got letter from Moorcroft so CCA to Citi first then when I was ignored, same to M'Croft.

 

Have already sent dispute letter to Citi.

 

Will send again to M'croft.

 

Thanks

 

ensure its letter 17 which is specific to a DCA when a creditor has failed to send the CCA.

 

S.

[mkb]

Well, the saga continues.....

 

Still no reply from Citi to CCA request

 

Ltr to Moorcroft on 22nd Aug saying Citi in breach of my request so bog off.

 

Today from Moorcroft I get 'you have not contacted us to discuss repayment blah blah blah'

 

So, armed with my truecall in record mode I actually called them

 

They say I need to contact Citi with my CCA request - erm, already done that & posted the A/c in dispute letter!

They also say that they are only collecting the debt on behalf of Citi & have not bought the account & the account still belongs to Citi - erm, thought Citi had terminated it!

 

They also said that they will put the a/c on hold for 14 days for Citi to supply me the information but to ring them if I've still had no response by Friday - how helpful of them

 

Honestly, talk about not being able to organise a p***-up in a brewery!

Can't actually decide who is worse, Citi or Moorcroft!

[the_shadow]

Well, the saga continues.....

 

Still no reply from Citi to CCA request

 

Ltr to Moorcroft on 22nd Aug saying Citi in breach of my request so bog off.

 

Today from Moorcroft I get 'you have not contacted us to discuss repayment blah blah blah'

 

So, armed with my truecall in record mode I actually called them

 

They say I need to contact Citi with my CCA request - erm, already done that & posted the A/c in dispute letter!

They also say that they are only collecting the debt on behalf of Citi & have not bought the account & the account still belongs to Citi - erm, thought Citi had terminated it!

 

They also said that they will put the a/c on hold for 14 days for Citi to supply me the information but to ring them if I've still had no response by Friday - how helpful of them

 

Honestly, talk about not being able to organise a p***-up in a brewery!

Can't actually decide who is worse, Citi or Moorcroft!

 

 

haha what a bunch of jokers... its not your job to chase the cca request, if they want to collect then let them chase CiTi.

 

S.

[mkb]

Exactly my thoughts!

 

Just hate wasting my time with such unprofessional people

 

I WILL however, have the last laugh though

[WelshMam2009]

Did you include this in your CCA request?

 

If it is your view that you are not the creditor, s.175 of the CCA 1974 applies in the case of a simple assignment, and places a duty upon you to pass this request to the creditor. In the case of an absolute assignment, you are a creditor as defined by s.189. If you contend that you purchased the rights but not the duties of any agreement, you are reminded that s.189 of the Act is clear that an assignment is of both rights and duties.

[WelshMam2009]

Moorcroft rang me every day for a week in respect of my Citi Card....didn't answer but eventually sent them a bog off letter...haven't heard from them since.

 

No CCA ever produced from Citi..I doubt very much they have them!!

[Enron]

Typical DCA bully boy tactics.

 

If you having not received a response to your s78(1) request that completes it, then as par clarification from the OFT the creditor is not entitled to enforce the agreement AT ALL either with or without a court order.

 

This would include requests for payment in writing or through phone calls to you..... but then again some banks do seem to operate as if the law and s78(6) CCA did not exist.

 

Anymore problems a complaint regarding the DCAs behaviour and that of Citi should do the trick, additionally informing both of those parties that you are making the complaint.

[mkb]

Yes WM, I did & got this in reply:

 

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/9304/returnofpoaug21.jpg

 

with my £1 postal order

 

I have sent both Citi & Moorcroft the account in dispute letter & fully intend to ignore both of them until I get the properly executed CCA from Citi then, IF that's enforceable, I will be reclaiming all the charges but I really don't expect them to have it from 199? cos it was an old Associates account.

 

Interestingly though, on my experian report, Citi appear as started in 2001

[mkb]

Typical DCA bully boy tactics.

 

If you having not received a response to your s78(1) request that completes it, then as par clarification from the OFT the creditor is not entitled to enforce the agreement AT ALL either with or without a court order.

 

This would include requests for payment in writing or through phone calls to you..... but then again some banks do seem to operate as if the law and s78(6) CCA did not exist.

 

Anymore problems a complaint regarding the DCAs behaviour and that of Citi should do the trick, additionally informing both of those parties that you are making the complaint.

 

Complain to Citi & Moorcroft directly or to FOS and/or OFT, Enron?

[Enron]

Moorcroft are purely the agent operating on behalf of Citi to make attempts at colleciton.

 

Citi should reply, however you will likely eventually get a standardised letter stating that they are not looking to enforce the agreement against you - a basic fob off and delaying tactic as they will continue to attempt collecting money and operating as normal, or a recent copy of the terms & conditions which do not fulfill s78(1) of the CCA - in that those recent T&C are not the executed agreement.

 

But as with all these things banks, especially Citi like to try and bend the rules, regulations and law.

[mkb]

STILL no response from Citi but today I got a Litigation Warning letter from Midas Legal Services.

 

Both Citi & Moorcroft have had the 'in dispute' letter so stuck now as to what to send to who.....