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    • CLAIRES RESPONSE TO OUR EMAIL   Hi Mark,   I have addressed the fact that I do not bully or blackmail and am mortified you would take it that way!    I will address your comments by paragraph also: My issue is not about how many stone chips anyone would expect, or how many there are on your wife’s car. it is about what you stated in your video which is not up on your website now. You did not mention when you asked the man who cleaned the car prior to delivery, just that you had. Then when I asked you whether they could be rectified by way of individual chips, you said to me I could not as there were hundreds and it would need respraying (and yes, I had assumed this was an estimate not that you had counted them). This to me indicated that you knew the bonnet had more than just the odd stone chip here and there on the front of the bonnet. I stated I felt you had deceived me, because as I stated before I have been told this by professional sprayers who have been in the business a very long time. Yes, you mentioned over the phone that I was the first person to complain in over 50 cars.  Your video was under 17 minutes and appeared as if you were pointing everything out on it including the odd stone chips to the front of the bonnet. Eco a toy what I would expect is how it was shown and described. Yes, I am happy with the car itself apart from this issue. The odd stone chip touched in here and there on the bonnet was what was described and expected. I do my research and Car Gurus checker is one of many market values. Also, from the cars I had checked (and yes, a few were one owner with full service history. One with a few more miles on the clock and another with less). I did not state that stone chips should not be touched in, but that I had been told they were done badly and ineffectively and that they would have been better off left alone (which I took in the context of the conversation to mean being done properly by a professional). You asked me what would make me happy after telling me the cost would be £150 for you or more like £200 here to have the work done you had told me. I had not negotiated any discount off the car at all and had reserved at the price advertised. My ex husband was in the car business and it is anticipated and wholly accepted to negotiate prices on used cars. This can not be compared with a a general store purchase. I purchased a large value item which was not as described. The delivery cost is what was negotiated, nothing else. You reimbursed for a job which I can not get done for anywhere near the price. Yes you are certainly misreading it as I explained in our earlier communication! I am sorry if you took this the wrong way and I should have elaborated that at the time. If you need this clarified, I would be happy to get you character witnesses to confirm to you that I am the opposite sort of person to even consider that type of behaviour. I apologise again that you found my email very rude, it was not meant that way at all. I am just really upset by this whole thing.   Whether your offers are meant to be rude or not, I find some of the comments as such.   As mentioned in our earlier communications, all I want is the car in the condition as advertised. I am still happy for you to collect the car, rectify the issue and deliver back to me or a refund closer to the cost of this. Although I trust the quotes I have, I can keep searching for a cheaper price. The bonnet is not in the condition as advertised (I can count and document tomorrow in daylight if you’d like).    Regards Claire
    • GEM CARS REPLY TO THIS EMAIL   Hi Claire   You are obviously upset which we don’t want So I have a couple of solutions below I must say I’m not grumpy or mardy or angry or upset. I’m not trying to have a go or start an argument but your email did sadden me greatly I always work better with people that talk things over rather than going straight for the jugular Anyway I have addressed the comments in your email matter of fact and I have some solutions below My main priority is your happiness with the car and the outcome, but unfortunately I wont be bullied into paying over the odds for a repair You need to appreciate that to fully paint the bonnet is betterment as such its not fair to expect the full amount especially as I have sent you the full amount that we would pay already. As you have already said neither of us needs to be thinking about your stone chips all weekend so hopefully this email will be the last one   If its ok I will address each paragraph one at a time   1; I didn’t deliberately deceive anyone I clearly state that the bonnet has odd stone chips here and there and odd stone chips on the front edge (I’ve just watched my video to be sure) (those are my exact words) (please feel free to double check I’ve left the video up for you) If I had said no stone chips or one or two stone chips (like I have on other videos)  then I would agree with you but I clearly stated (odd stone chips here and there) Exactly how many stone chips would you feel is acceptable on a 10 year old car with 117000 miles on ? My wife’s brand new golf R with 5000 miles on the clock has 6 already   2; You state that its clear I already knew how bad the bonnet was because I asked our valeter, This is untrue because after you called my wife to complain I then asked the valeter if he noticed the bonnet being particularly bad before I called you back as I couldn’t remember it being that bad, Also you asked if you could get a chips away type company to just come and touch them in, I simply said there are 100s of tiny chips and it would be cheaper to paint the bonnet this was just a generalisation not an exact count of the stone chips (as I said I had to ask the valeter if the bonnet was really that bad as I could not remember) Any more than 20 chips would be too many for a chips away type repair I hardly counted all the stone chips During our conversation this is exactly what I said   3; You accuse me of deceiving you when I stated that it costs us £150 plus vat to have a bonnet painted I have sent you the copy of our pricing structure from our paint shop I told you the truth I have no reason to lie feel free to call them on Monday and check for yourself If you see option 1 below and decide to bring it to us I will happily give you a copy of the bill     4; My 18 Minute video was completely honest and I did not try to deceive anyone with the video We have sold over 300 cars off the back of my videos and you are the first person to complain I would ask you did I state in my video that the car had no stone chips? Did I say one or two stone chips? NO I DIDN’T  I clearly stated odd stone chips here and there which is exactly what it has as you would expect. I would add that when you called to complain I kindly sent you the full cost that we pay to have a full bonnet painted I didn’t argue the case as most car dealers would as we pride ourselves on our levels of customer service I simply asked you what you would be happy with as compensation and you said £150 so I sent you £150 instantly to your bank.   5; You state that the car was priced at the higher end of the market for the year and mileage yet on our Car Gurus checker it showed as £400 behind market value When you checked the prices were the other cars you looked at all one lady owner white 5 door cars with full service history (as this makes a huge difference in price) So NO I disagree our car was very fairly priced and not at the higher end The condition of the car was fantastic for a 10 year old 120000 mile car you have said yourself you are happy with it apart from the stone chips on the bonnet so I’m struggling to understand what you mean by alleged condition? If you don’t touch stone chip in, the metal goes rusty so no I disagree you should always touch stone chips in   6; You accuse me of compensating you dishonestly when I simply asked you what would make you happy and you agreed £150 which I sent you straight away I would also add that you negotiated an additional £100 off the car after you had bought it as I kindly paid half the delivery for you. When you purchase items from other stores how often do you get a discount after you have agreed to buy the item? So you actually have £250 towards the stone chips.   7; No disrespect intended by I have already reimbursed you for what would be my full costs     8; I’m unsure what you mean by “Please do not be concerned with regards to a review, as I will not be leaving one until this matter is fully resolved” To me that sounds like bullying and blackmail but I could be misreading it?   Even though I found your email very rude I still have 3 amicable solutions to offer you   1; Refund us the £150 I sent you then bring the car back and have a day out in Lincoln, it’s a beautiful place to visit we have one of the biggest cathedrals in Europe (used in the hit film the da Vinci code) the castle is stunning and the cathedral quarter has some lovely places to shop and eat we also have a large Primark We will drop you to get the train into Lincoln central and whilst you shop and eat we will get the bonnet painted for you we will give you an additional £20 towards food and fuel on us and then collect you in the afternoon and you can drive you car home with the newly painted bonnet.   2; Accept a full refund for the car and we will collect it next week   3; Accept the fact that it is a 10 year old car with 117000 miles it does have stone chips, we didn’t deliberately mislead you, we did send you £150 towards the repairs and pay half your delivery so buy yourself a Genuine colour pen for the car (£15) touch the chips in with the right colour and spend the rest on a spa day   Sincerely Mark and Gina  
    • Last question for now   Am I claiming for £47 which was my loss since I sold them on ebay, or am I claiming for the full amount of replacing the lost item, which is around £200 for the eqivalent model new, sadly this white version is only available refurbished from the states for around $160 posted.   I am not after making money but unsure how I proceed here?   In an ideal world my sold item is in my posession but
    • Yes..but do it yourself you do not need a Solicitor.   Andy
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Angry With American Express


AngryWithAmex
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If you take Amex to court I am 100% positive they will defend, they will enlist a very expensive barrister. Should they win the costs to you will be huge.

Please check the resent ruling in Manchester High Court before you go ahead.

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can anyone help write a quick letter with all the correct wording and references to consumer credit act etc.

 

Quite honestly if you're asking this question you're probably not ready to start legal proceedings against AMEX. You need to have a visceral understanding of your argument and be able to communicate it clearly. As ever good luck in your pursuit, but please don't give AMEX an opportunity to own you :)

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Hi

 

About to send this letter to amex, any comments welcome before sending.

 

------------------------------------------------

 

Dear Sir/Madam

Thank you for your letter dated [Date], after doing a detailed investigation, I’m writing to inform you that this account is now in serious dispute for the following reasons.

1) I do not believe that the conditions you supplied where actually attached to the application form at the time it was completed by your sales rep in 2001.

2) The signature that is on the application form is not my signature from that time period.

I am now passing all the evidence I have to the Financial Ombudsman Service for them to investigate the above.

------------------------------------------------

Seems the signature is mine, but that is not how i signed my name from 1999 to 2003, more like from 2007 onwards.

I only discovered this because i was on a training course yesterday and at the end had to sign a form and put it back in the folder, i then looked at my signature going back over the years and realised how different it looks now compared to back then.

Not sure how amex have got my most recent signature, but 2-3 years ago i was off work on the sick and claimed on my insurance, plus i have wrote to them in the past and signed the letter.

AWA

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Hi there,

 

1. I think you should say that you do not believe the conditions "were actually part of the application form..." The House of Lords' Authority on this is clear that they must be "within the four corners" of the agreement. This means that "attached" by a pin or paper clip or staple wouldn't meet this criteria, and nor do T&Cs in a separate leaflet. They must form part of the one document.

 

DD

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  • 1 month later...

Hi

Had a reply back from foslink3.gif, and they claim that as i have been using the card for 9 years and never mentioned anything about the t&c's then the agreement is NOT unenforceable.

 

So can anyone help with the letter below as i disagree with their finding and need to submit a reply quickly.

 

--------------------------------------------

Dear [Name]

Thank you for your letter dated [date], as per my previous email, please find my reply to your letter.

American Express claim that the applications form that was completed in [year] is a true copy and contain the prescribed terms and conditions, i contest this on the grounds that as stated, i sent you their copies of the application form and terms and condition in my original complaint and i pointed out that American Express had copied the terms over the top of the received stamp, proving that the terms were not on the back of the application form. You stated that “In the event you had not completed the application or failed to receive the terms and conditions, it seems reasonable to suggest you would have raised this at the time”

As i completed the application form at a motorway service station, at the time i was not aware that an application for credit was a valid credit agreement, and should contain terms and conditions.

Also as pointed out earlier the terms were not on the application form and The House of Lords' Authority has made it clear that they must be "within the four corners" of the agreement. This means that "attached" by a pin or paper clip or staple wouldn't meet this criteria, and nor do terms and conditions in a separate leaflet. They must form part of the one document.

American Express also claim that the card was sent in a card carrier containing the terms and condition, American Express also claim that the terms and condition sent where the original terms and conditions at the time, if that was correct, why does the photocopied terms on the application form contain a different APR rate than the ones they claim where sent in the post. Also the terms and conditions sent in the post do not have my name or address and have not been signed by myself or American Express.

As pointed out in OFT Guidance on sections 77/78/79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

2.21 “The creditor or owner must ensure that it gives the terms and conditions applicable at the time the contract was executed. It was held in Carey v HSBC Bank plc 9 that, subject to spelling mistakes and similar discrepancies (described as 'low level omissions'), only those matters listed in regulation 3(2) could be omitted. The name and address at the time of execution must therefore be included, although, as Carey explains, that can be taken from any source available to the creditor or owner.10”

My name and address is not on the terms and condition American Express claim where sent to me with the card.

Regarding my signature, as stated earlier i completed the application form at a motorway service station, if i forgot to sign the form at the time, then American Express should have either posted a new form out, or torn the application form up. Back in 2001, sales reps trying get customer to sign up would more than likely have been paid a commission for every form that was completed; therefore there was nothing to stop them from easily signing the form when the mistake was realised, or at a later date getting my signature from another letter or PPI form and copying the signature across, as you are aware, both of these methods have been used by other companies in the past. Has American Express shown you the original application form or had the signature tested to ensure it is my signature.

 

Therefore at the very least, this agreement must be ruled as unenforceable.

-----------------------------------------

 

Thanks

AWA

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err why are you arguing with the FOS, they CANNOT rule on enforceability and really should only be used in complaints about charges or attempting to obtain sight of the original agreement.

 

ONLY A COURT can rule on enforceability... indeed the FOS will ALWAYS take the side of a bank/financial institute over a layman as they'll rule on morality rather than breaches of the CCA1974.

 

S.

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Hi

Sorry for delay, due to nature of job, not been able to reply till now.

 

Hi the shadow

I complained to FOS as Amex sent me a leaflet about who to complain too.

 

Hi DD

Believe it or not, FOS say that because i used the card, then i entered into an agreement with Amex, even through i showed then evidence that the document is not the original

 

AWA

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Hi DD

Believe it or not, FOS say that because i used the card, then i entered into an agreement with Amex, even through i showed then evidence that the document is not the original

 

AWA

 

The Fos will not be interested, the judisdiction for decisions on enforcability remain with the county courts, anything outside of this is hearsay and interpretation.

 

Have a read of s62's thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/191784-shakespeare62-nastybank-49.html as hes's currently testing the validity of an agreement. Not sure how it will pan out but rest assured it will have an impact on Amex 'if' they are found to have manufactured the document :eek:

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi

 

Had another reply back from FOS, its seems they beleive that amex do not have to supply the terms and conditions to a credit agreement at the time of signing, but rather just post the t&c's with the card at a later date.

 

They claim that they take into consideration 'the law, regulations, regulator rules etc, how can they do that if the CCA states that t&c's must be part of the original document? then tell me that sending the t&c's in the post is OK, and they do not need to be part of the original document(I've already proved that the t&c's where never part of the original document.

 

Even through i have taken into account what the shadow and other have said, i do not agree with that and will appeal, any help with writing a good appeal would be helpful.

 

I have added their reply below.

 

FOS15Apr2010.jpg

 

And these are the t&c's they say they sent in the post, notice my name and address is missing, the t&c's are not signed by me or amex

 

TCAmexPost.gif

 

Thanks

AWA

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  • 1 year later...

I'm so sorry to intrude on your thread (go for it! Amex is the pits) - am desperately trying to find the name of the MD of American Express Europe Ltd. Have spent all morning on the phone to Amex, who refuse to give out his name 'as a matter of policy'. Gee, I wonder why!! So, if anyone can help, i'd be so grateful.....again, sorry to interrupt your excellent thread!

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Raymond Joabar is the UK CEO. I can't find an overall one for Europe. Maybe it's him? They are very bashful about giving out details of the Amex CEOs in Europe for some reason!!!!! India, Australia, etc., are listed as personnel on some lists but no European ones.

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I found these

 

Country Manager

Werner Heinrich Decker

 

Direct Postal Address

American Express Europe Ltd

Belgrave House

76 Buckingham Palace Road

London

SW1W 9AX

 

 

 

Director

Alexander Filshie

 

Direct Postal Address

American Express Europe Ltd

Belgrave House

76 Buckingham Palace Road

London

SW1W 9AX

 

 

 

Director

Massimo Adriano Quarra

 

Direct Postal Address

American Express Europe Ltd

Belgrave House

76 Buckingham Palace Road

London

SW1W 9AX

 

 

 

Director

Brendan Gerard Walsh

 

Direct Postal Address

American Express Europe Ltd

Belgrave House

76 Buckingham Palace Road

London

SW1W 9AX

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