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Angry With American Express

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Hi uptoeyeballs and gezwee

 

They claim the application form IS the agreement, also they state that signing the credit card and using it since 2001 means i have agreed to the t&c's, which they sent with the card in the post in 2001, but the t&c's they have sent me have not been signed or dated by either myself or them, please see attachment, so basically i want them to provide to the court the true/copy signed agreement and t&c's.

 

AWA

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basically i want them to provide to the court the true/copy signed agreement and t&c's.AWA

 

That's my problem with this. If they say what you have is it, then what else are they going to send you/the court? Dear Judge, why does AWA require us to produce the agreement when he already has it?

 

I think what is important to establish is whether the document you have is what they would rely on in court to enforce or just something to satisfy s78, so he wording of their letter is very important. You may not find out for sure unless there is court action one way or another.

 

The wording of their letter may also make hard for them to introduce another document as "the agreement" later.

 

Just my thoughs. Maybe someone will disagree/chip in....

 

uteb


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Hi AWE

 

What is the end result you want to achive? Have them wipe the debt? Or maybe accept a one off payment at 25% of the debt? Surly the idea is to cca them, and when they fail to produce a valid cca you put the account into dispute and stop paying them. I’m surprised you’re still paying them. At some point this situation will come to a head in that they a) wipe the debt (not likely), b) take a reduced payment as full and final settlement or c) take you to court, but until this time you just keep the account in dispute and withhold payment.

 

 

 

Regards

 

 

MSR

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a) wipe the debt (not likely), b) take a reduced payment as full and final settlement or c) take you to court

 

My money is on c.


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My money is on c.

 

Yes that's what I'd be preparing for too. Have there been many successes were an unenforceable cca has been challenged and won on the basis that is was missing the prescribed terms etc? I haven’t seen any yet. Usually it seems that a person has won on some other point ie sent cca request, came back missing prescribed terms, disputed, defaulted for non payment and then won in court because the default wasn’t executed properly.

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Hi

I’ve been writing a few posts about my dispute with amex, unfortunately the problem i made was writing different post.

So I’ve wrote this post and added all the info so far to date to make it easier and all relevant letters are inside the zip file.

Last year i informed amex that i was going on holiday and would be using my card abroad, they said ok and asked for the dates i would be away, which i told them.

About 2 weeks after that, i received a letter informing me that they were reducing my credit limit and also cancelling my use of cash points , I was furious as i have never missed a payment or made a late payment.

So in July i sent them a SAR (see 1 in zip file) asking them for the information they had on me as i wanted to find out why they lowered my credit limit.

What i did receive was a application form for a credit card ( see 2 in zip file), i was not happy with what they sent, so after reading some posts and asking for help i sent the CCA ( see 3 in zip file).

What they then sent was another copy of the application form with 1 page of terms, (see 4 in zip file), one thing i did notice was that the received stamp is actually under the text for the terms, (see 5 in zip file), how can they possible send me the terms written over the received stamp, (is that not fraud, misleading information). Amex also sent me a cover letter (see 6,7,8,9,10 in zip file) the APR on both terms is also different (see 11 in zip file 19.6%) other terms say 19.9% and there is no signature from them on any terms or agreement.

Once again i wrote to amex informing them that i’m not happy with their response and the matter remains in dispute (see 12 in zip file).

I have received their final response (see 13 in zip file).

My question is this, do i have a case against amex considering the rulings from the http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/240186-dissecting-manchester-test-case.html

I do not want amex to default me if i cease paying, but reading some post on the site they will even through the account is in dispute and they never argued against the dispute even through i informed them in letter 12 that the account is in dispute.

What letter can i send informing them that they cannot default or pass my details onto any other parties, also i want to ask if they have the true and genuine copy of the agreement and terms, because with the terms they are not genuine, due to the stamp.

I really want to take them to court and force their hand, by requesting to see the genuine terms, or agreement, but most post say let them come after me.

Any help with next step :)

Thanks

AWA

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you have SO many threads about this that it is really diff to know what has / what has not already been covered.

 

i'll get them all merged so we know where we stand.

 

dx


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Threads merged


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Hi

I’ve been writing a few posts about my dispute with amex, unfortunately the problem I made was writing different post.

So I’ve wrote this post and added all the info so far to date to make it easier and all relevant letters are inside the zip file.

Last year I informed amex that I was going on holiday and would be using my card abroad, they said ok and asked for the dates I would be away, which I told them.

About 2 weeks after that, I received a letter informing me that they were reducing my credit limit and also cancelling my use of cash points , I was furious as I have never missed a payment or made a late payment.

So in July I sent them a SAR (see 1 in zip file) asking them for the information they had on me as I wanted to find out why they lowered my credit limit.

What I did receive was a application form for a credit card ( see 2 in zip file), I was not happy with what they sent, so after reading some posts and asking for help I sent the CCA ( see 3 in zip file).

What they then sent was another copy of the application form with 1 page of terms, (see 4 in zip file), one thing I did notice was that the received stamp is actually under the text for the terms, (see 5 in zip file), how can they possible send me the terms written over the received stamp, (is that not fraud, misleading information). Amex also sent me a cover letter (see 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 in zip file) the APR on both terms is also different (see 11 in zip file 19.6%) other terms say 19.9%

Once again i wrote to amex informing them that i’m not happy with their response and the matter remains in dispute (see 12 in zip file).

I have received their final response (see 13 in zip file).

My question is this, do i have a case against amex considering the rulings from the http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/240186-dissecting-manchester-test-case.html

One other point, they tell me if i’m not happy with the outcome, i can contact the FOS, even in the terms they said i received in the post with the card, which look very new, it says i can contact the FOS at South Quay Plaza, Marsh Wall. After doing some hunting i discovered that the FOS came to power on the 30 Nov 2001, which considering my application was signed by me on the 05 Nov 2001 and received by amex on the 13 Nov 2001. Does that seem a bit odd, or is it just me, as how can i complain to a business that had not yet come to power.

I do not want amex to default me if I cease paying, but reading some post on the site they will even through the account is in dispute and they never argued against the dispute even through i informed them in letter 12 that the account is in dispute.

What letter can I send informing them that they cannot default or pass my details onto any other parties; also I want to ask if they have the true and genuine copy of the agreement and terms, because I do not believe the terms are genuine due to the stamp as if they copied the terms from whatever source, the stamp would be above the text.

 

Thanks

AWA

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Hi Sorry

Did not know thread was merged, when i got email from dx100uk and clicked link i got following message:

No Thread specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator

I have just reposted new post, can you close this post down as i have added all info to date on new post.

Thanks

AWA

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Hi, Sorry i havent read your previous posts or Zip but in the meantime here's a couple of the letters that you requested.

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/581-cca-request-letter

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/583-letter-to-request-the-halt-on-the-processing-of-your-data

 

Hope these help for the time being till someone with more exp of Amex issues comes along


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Without reading through all the messages I can tell you one thing for certain...

 

after the ruling last year of Mcguffick vs RBS a creditor can report your non-payment to a CRA even in default of a s78 so if you stop paying yes they will record it and according to that case are legally entitled to.

 

S.


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Hi Sorry

Did not know thread was merged, when i got email from dx100uk and clicked link i got following message:

No Thread specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator

I have just reposted new post, can you close this post down as i have added all info to date on new post.

Thanks

AWA

 

why do you keep opening new threads on the same issue?

all that does it make people repeat what has already been advised:-x

 

if you want this to move forward, you need to post here in this thread

 

dx

.


PLEASE DONT HIT QUOTE IF THE LAST POST IS THE ONE YOU ARE REPLYING TOO.

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With 63 replies theres no need for another thread.

Latest one merged here.


Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

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Hi AWE

 

What is the end result you want to achive? Have them wipe the debt? Or maybe accept a one off payment at 25% of the debt? Surly the idea is to cca them, and when they fail to produce a valid cca you put the account into dispute and stop paying them. I’m surprised you’re still paying them. At some point this situation will come to a head in that they a) wipe the debt (not likely), b) take a reduced payment as full and final settlement or c) take you to court, but until this time you just keep the account in dispute and withhold payment.

 

 

 

Regards

 

 

MSR

 

i think this sums up this whole thread? what are you trying to do here?

 

your only sensible course of action is to offer a very low F&F & if AMEX accept, this will close the matter once and for all.

 

there is no way you stand a cats chance in hell of getting this written off [a stupid myth proported by these reclaim co's] .

 

i think its honestly time to put up or shut up, it matters not how many times you post threads asking various ways to hopfully find a way out the debt to get your own back on then.

 

ship 'em out and take your business elsewhere, vote with your feet.

 

........................

 

 

now there is way to 'get you own back though ... hit them with a PPI reclaim, i see the box is signed?

 

dx


PLEASE DONT HIT QUOTE IF THE LAST POST IS THE ONE YOU ARE REPLYING TOO.

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What is a F&F

 

In all my posts it has been proven that amex do not have the t&c's on the back of the application form or anywhere else for that matter.

 

What i believe has happened is amex received my application form and stamped the received date on the back which was blank, then stamped the front with approved.

 

As everyone says, the t&c must be on the application form, so it does not matter where amex stored the t&c or where the courts say the t&c can be kept, on a server, filing cabinet etc etc when they printed the t&c for me the stamp received must be over the top of the terms, not the terms on top of the stamp ( file 5 in zip folder).

 

What amex has done is lied and dishonest and decietfull in trying to cover their own backs, if i did that, i would be taken to court and jailed.

 

So why when i have done nothing wrong, should i be expected to have a default notice slapped on my credit file and hounded by dca's when amex have failed to comply with the consumer credit act!!!!!!

 

What i want to do is take amex to court on my terms, NOT THEIRS have their lawyer sit with me in front of the judge and explain their deceitfullness, i want to show the judge my t&c with the terms copied over the top of the stamp and ask him how its possible to put a stamp under the terms and claim the terms are on the back of the application form.

 

May be i win may be i lose, but i'm not going to let them default me for their dishonesty

 

AWA

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I think you'll find they only have to provide a reconstituted copy now - have a look at this - http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/consultations/OFT1175con.pdf


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What is a F&F AWA

 

 

Full and Final settlement. You make them an offer of reduced payment, say 50p in the pound, to go away, mark the debt as settled with the credit agencies, and never darken your door again. :)

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Hi 42Man and ManSizedRooster

 

Having read 42Man's link, 2.20 states:

 

If your lender does have to recreate the agreement for you, for example if

they fill in an application template with the specific details of your

agreement, they must tell you that the copy they have sent you has been

created this way.

 

In none of the letters amex sent me, have the told me the application form and terms have been recreated, so therfore, the fact that the terms are copied over the top of the received stamp must mean that they are original copies

 

AWA

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Hi

I've decided to give amex 2 options,

1) Offer then a full and final settlement figure and close the account.

2) If they decline, take them to court and ask the judge to decide whether the application form and terms are enforceable/unenforceable.

 

As the account is in dispute and the last letter received from amex did not argue against that, so they must agree and i'm neither in arrears or have any defaults, can anyone help write a quick letter with all the correct wording and references to consumer credit act etc.

 

Also where would amex stand if they then cancelled the agreement and asked for full payment, can they do that whilst the account is in dispute and up to date.

 

Would be much appreciated

AWA

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I would be very very cautious about starting any legal proceedings against a bank/cc firm at present.

 

With the recent rulings it appears judges are only to keen to knock back LiP's and the costs issue if fast or multitrack is risky.

 

If I was you I'd present your case to a no-win-no-fee solicitor and get their opinion on it.

 

Amex like most original creditors will take f&f but it'll be for most of the balance in my opinion. Once sold to a DCA the value to them is greater to get something rather than nothing but Amex dont appear to sell unless its defintately unenforceable or risky to continue chasing themselves by just assigning DCA's rather than selling.

 

S.


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Hi S

 

Thanks for the quick reply, i think i have a good case against amex, so sending them an f&f will also force their hand, they will know themselves if they have an unenforceable agreement and being taken to court and getting nothing or cut and run and accept what i offer will be interesting to see.

 

AWA

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