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    • Thanks DX - I wondered about the blacked out bits. That's their doing not mine obviously.   Attached is the exhibits part of the bundle. Sorry about this, no matter what I compressed the whole thing down to I got the oversize message, even if the filesize on my computer was showing as well under 4.8mb   The_exhibits-compressed.pdf
    • Thanks Bankfodder!   Hello again everyone.    I received my SAR back from Elderbridge and what and absolute load of **** it is!   1.  They did not send any transcripts or recordings of any phones calls  - both myself and my husband spoke to them in Aug 2016 (noted in their diary notes) and I called them in Dec 2018 (again noted in their diary notes) it was the same day they sent the reply even though they have mentioned me calling in their notes on that day, so not sure I should let that go or not!   I also spoke to them in July 2016 (again in the notes) and I spoke to them in Dec 2012 (again in the notes)    2.  Going through the diary notes in the beginning notes were sporadic mainly because we were making payment and everything was ok, then later as things changed there were notes almost once a month, then in NOV 2012 and Dec 2012 frequency of notes increase as this is when they began court proceedings.  and throughout 2013 again lots of notes made - mostly their in house stuff about court dealings and so on - so that's fine. then in NOV 2013 hey made a not re the court date in OCT - saying that they were ordered to treat the loan as having a fixed rate from inception and sent off etc.  BUT from 21 Nov 2013 to 17th June 2014 there are no notes at all!  Now the hearing was on the 10th Jan 2014!   17/06/2014 14:43 *****Substantial EVS costs to be added to any SF ****** 17/06/2014 14:43 EVS Defended + At the hearing on 10/01/2014 an SPO for 500 on 26/01/2014 and then CMI + £60 wef 26/02/2014 plus MJ for £103,331.03 suspended on the same terms. It was also held that we could add our costs - Defended costs on this case are £33,879.80. 17/06/2014 00:00 Reviewed Reviewed 17/06/2014 00:00 ***Defended Costs*****:To be added to any SF ***Defended Costs*****:To be added to any SF 21/11/2013 04:13 ADHOC Statement Printed From 03/10/13 To 13/11/13 Batch 2015 Sequence 28 Printed 13/11/2013 00:00:00   Above you can cleary see the gap then suddenly the first notes talk about the court case and costs etc, at the trial in OCT the judge reserved cost till the next hearing (also stated on the documentation from the court)  but then at that hearing in Jan 2014 we did not discuss costs - the 6 month gap I feel is very suspicious.    The final court document  dated 13th Jan 2014 says to pay the claimant £103,331.03 which is the amount outstanding under the mortgage and goes on to says order were not to be enforced as long as we pay etc.  no mention of costs at all - so they seem to just be adding them   3.   They sent a field agent to me in Jan 2018, I only knew this as on the 9th Jan 2018 I was working at home and heard the letterbox, thought it was the postman, went to the door to find an envelope shoved through the door with a letter in it saying they had been requested to visit me and that they called today but I was not in! and gave a number for me to call ( I saw the woman walking down the driveway - but she did not ring the bell! and I wasn't about to run after her!)   But in the notes they have written this utter lie!   30/01/2018 12:44 Field Agent Report Received The field agent visited the security address on three occasions. The customer was spoken to through the window. They refused to discuss and refused to answer the door. The contact number on file is not recognised. RFA - Not known Reasons for items not verified:N/A Details of variances of items outside of expenditure guidelines and reasons N/A Property is a detached house in good condation valued at £406,000. Equity not known. I actually cannot believe what I have read here! Can I ask them for some kind of proof of this, because I don't know who they are talking about but it certainly wasn't me!   4.  the documents they had sent me a joke, they have sent 77 documents in total, none of these are copies of letter from Elderbridge (which is who I sent the SAR to) all from First Plus and certainly not ALL of them, they have been bulked out by sending me copies of documents that I sent TO THEM for my court defence and there are strange Black boxes over some of the text!? which I don't understand!     After receiving this info from Elderbridge I decided to send a SAR to Barclays and I got a small package with a couple of letters, some diary notes and screen shot of the account, as well as a short statement of account. This was for our ORIGINAL loan from Feb 2006,  (we topped it up in June 2006) and the first one was closed.  The second one is the one that has been transferred to Elderbridge but Barclays seem to know be denying ALL knowledge of it! and I know that they still hold the beneficial interest of these loans and that Elderbridge regularly contact Barclays for help and advise - I have contact with other account holders who have diary notes from Elderbridge showing contact to Barclays!..   This week I also had a reply from the FOS (only from an adjudicator not an ombudsman) and his initial opion is that it's ok for Elderbridge to claim the costs as we defaulted, he seems to be ignoring my argument that the relationship is unfair etc but I will be sending this back and asking for it to be looked at by an ombudsman.   But was hoping that someone here could give me any advise re all of this - sorry I know it's a lot!!
    • why all the blanked out stuff in the parking contract? and no proof its paid this year either?  
    • pop the exhibits as a sep file i'll merge them for you
    • Thanks.   I've managed to reduce the file size and deleted from this copy all of the pages of photos and copies of the signs. Just their witness statement and the photos of the car parked up remain.   They say "My company relies on Parking Eye v Beavis (2015) in which it was accepted as an established principle that a valid contract can be made by an offer in the form of the terms and conditions set out on the sign and accepted by the driver's actions as prescribed therein"   Is there a refutation to this case anywhere? Or do I not argue that  and just refer back to EB's earlier post and focus on the signs?   "What you are writing is roughly your side of events and referring to the evidence you can provide so that will include their signage, any evidence or lack of authority for them to offer anything, their paperwork if that doesn't create a liability, the POFA where the vital phrases have been missed by the parking co or the timescales missed.   then you pick holes in the wording and substance fo their claim, for example, contractual sum or breach of contract - they are different. are they claiming from you as driver or keeper, cant assume they are one and the same.   What about the amount claimed? it will invariably include unicorn food tax so if they are saying keeper ia liable they are limited to asking for the amount shown on the NTK and you should make this clear as it helps damage their assertion that driver and keeper liability are the same thing   As they havent responded to your CPR request for documents you can start off with that but it isnt a golden bullet, "   thanks Bundle_the_approved,_signed_statement_with_the_exhibits-_Reduced.pdf
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AngryWithAmex

Angry With American Express

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Hi

Just quick question, i thought a defaullt notice was supposed to give you 14 clear days to pay, i received a default notice dated 06/11/2008 and asking for payment to be received by 20/11/2008 even though that is 14 days, surely taking into account 2 days postage(1st class) that only gives me 12 days. (I know this was last year, but some interesting developments have occured :) )

Am i correct in thinking that the default notice is invalid??

 

Regards

 

You are correct. Amex continue to error on DN's, all goes in your favour.

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Hi Monty2007

 

What would be my next step regarding the default notice, i have emailed company who sent me a letter this morning telling them they are in 'breach of section 10 of the data protection act' as account is in dispute and to remove all my details from their records

 

Regards

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Hi Monty2007

 

What would be my next step regarding the default notice, i have emailed company who sent me a letter this morning telling them they are in 'breach of section 10 of the data protection act' as account is in dispute and to remove all my details from their records

 

Regards

 

It depends if you are wanting to remedy the defective DN? Amex have a very standard process, they will throw you to around 3/4 DCA's and then you will probably get Brachers (unless you are a chosen one and get special treatment up in London), they will offer you 50% off and then litigate. There is an occasional variation on this theme, and more tasty if you are up in Scotland (I assume you are not?!).

 

The CRA files are different, they won't remove these usually until there is a settlement pre- or post-litigation. They will claim that they have the right to process your data and update the CRA's. If you have lots of charges and fees then it may be possible to get the markers removed/changed but not easy IMO.

 

Depends what you want to achieve. Do tell more...............

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Have they terminated the agreement ?


PLEASE NOTE - I am not a legal expert, what is stated is my own opinion and from what I have learnt from this forum and my own experiences.

 

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Hi

After sending amex a sar and cca, they have still failed to supply me with a valid credit agreement, anyone know what form i can get from the court to force them to supply it.

 

I know i can put the account into dispute, but reading some threads i do not want amex to default me, so strike 1st and get the court to order amex to supply it.

 

Thanks

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Although it may seem very unfair, if they fail to let you have a valid credit agreement and you decide to treat the agreement as unenforceable and you decide to stop paying, then they will default you and there is nothing that you can do about it.

 

The recent judgement in MCGuffic (I'm not sure of the spelling) has dealt with exactly this point. Although the agreement becomes unenforceable, the unenforceable as he does not extinguish all the rights of the lender


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Hi

After sending amex a sar and cca, they have still failed to supply me with a valid credit agreement, anyone know what form i can get from the court to force them to supply it.

 

I know i can put the account into dispute, but reading some threads i do not want amex to default me, so strike 1st and get the court to order amex to supply it.

 

Thanks

 

You could try a CPR31.16 request which is a request under court procedures for information PRIOR to court proceedings...

Take a look at this thread and read the 1st 10 or so postings...

 

BE WARNED tho, they will probably ignore both letters and you will have to file against them in court to force this through.

 

S.


Are You as Anonymous on CAG as You Think You Are? *Link*

 

The CAG is a free help site,should you be offered help that requires payment,please report it to site team.

 

Deal with your debts:

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***** SERIOUSLY IN DEBT, DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO, TRY NationalDebtLine's MoneySteps *****

 

 

IMPORTANT: Please take my advice in the spirit it is given and on the basis that I am expressing my opinion, These opinions are not endorsed by CAG in anyway and are offered informally without prejudice or warranty of any kind. These opinions are solely based upon the knowledge I've gained from this fantastic site and life in general. I have NO legal training.

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Hi BankFodder and the Shadow

 

Thanks for the reply, when i sent the sar and cca, all they sent me was an application form for american express card, please see link below for details of previous thread

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/amex/217844-reply-amex.html#post2456490

 

I have a feeling they do not have a valid credit agreement, but when they replied to cca, they stated that 'statements' verified credit agreement.

 

Thanks

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Hi BankFodder and the Shadow

 

Thanks for the reply, when i sent the sar and cca, all they sent me was an application form for american express card, please see link below for details of previous thread

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/amex/217844-reply-amex.html#post2456490

 

I have a feeling they do not have a valid credit agreement, but when they replied to cca, they stated that 'statements' verified credit agreement.

 

Thanks

 

Ah ok, so they have produced the application which if it held the prescribed terms and was properly executed and headed correctly could become the "agreement" imo.

 

It would seem Amex didnt put the prescibed terms on that doc and hence it should be unenforceable in court.

 

They have sent you all they can send you, it appears to be unenforceable. As to there statement that statements verify the debt... utter tosh.. whilst this might be in place for agreements post 2007 if the court decides its just to enforce them, they are barred from enforcing agreements pre 2007 if the prescribed terms are not there.

 

You should be aware that Amex will never agree and you can expect a possible legal battle if you do challenge them. You need to read around the Amex forum for specific details of the next stages against them.

 

Amex forum

S.


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***** SERIOUSLY IN DEBT, DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO, TRY NationalDebtLine's MoneySteps *****

 

 

IMPORTANT: Please take my advice in the spirit it is given and on the basis that I am expressing my opinion, These opinions are not endorsed by CAG in anyway and are offered informally without prejudice or warranty of any kind. These opinions are solely based upon the knowledge I've gained from this fantastic site and life in general. I have NO legal training.

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Hi

Can anyone let me know if what amex are saying is true, i do not believe that a application for credit form and then posting t&c's with card in 2001 constitutes a enforceably credit agreement

 

Previous Post:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/226055-issue-court-action-against.html#post2506041

 

Letters received:

 

Amex08Dec2009Page1001.jpg

 

Amex08Dec2009Page2001.jpg

 

Thanks

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Hi, AngryWithAmex.

 

I have merged both your threads on this, makes it easier for people to help.

 

Regards.

 

Scott.


 
 

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You complained that they had failed to comply with a SAR, in that Amex did not include a copy of the agreement with the data they sent. It seems to me that the only defence to this would be for them to say that they do not hold agreements in a 'relevant filing system', or that they cannot readily identify them by name. You also complain that they failed to comply with a CCA request.

 

Their response is confusing; you say they haven't provided you with a copy agreement, and they waffle on about statements (the stuff about this being evidence etc. is specious, incidentally), and then say they have provided a copy of the signed agreement complete with prescribed terms (which would be a first!); but reading the letter carefully, I suspect that they are claiming that this was done not in response to your SAR or CCA request, but in the form of a card carrier way back when. They have not said that this was their final response.

 

This kind of smoke and mirrors response is typical of Amex, who seem to be utterly unable to confess to having duff agreements.

 

In my view, you should reply with a fairly short letter along these lines:

 

Dear Weasels

 

I refer to your letter dated (date) in response to my complaint.

 

I confess to being somewhat puzzled by your response, and would be glad if you would answer the following points:

 

1. You have not addressed my complaint that Amex failed to comply with my SAR. Please confirm that the data you sent me is all the data you hold on me.

 

2. You state that you supplied a copy of the signed credit agreement containing all the prescribed terms. The document you supplied in response to my s.78(1) request does not meet the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 because it does not contain the prescribed terms. Please therefore confirm which signed agreement, containing all the prescribed terms, signatures, and which meets all the requirements of the Act and Regulations, you are referring to.

 

3. You have not stated that your letter of (date) is your Final Response. So that I can escalate the complaint, should your response to this letter be unsatisfactory, please ensure that you mark your final response as such.

 

In the meantime, my position remains the same - that you have failed to supply a valid agreement, and that the matter between us remains in dispute.

 

Yours etc.,

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Hi ScarletPimpernel

 

Sorry for delay in replying, long 14hrs at work.

 

Can you verify 2 things for me if possible.

 

1) I've read on the forum that an agreement must have the t&c's contained within the agreement, therfore as they state that the t&c's where posted with the card after i signed the agreement(application form), does this mean that it does not comply with section 61 of the consumer credit act 1974 and is therefore unenforceable?

2) An application form is not a valid credit agreement and again is unenforceable?

 

Cheers AWA

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1) Yes, the T&C must be contained within the four corners of the agreement, and not be on a separate document supplied later.

 

2) An application form can be an agreement, but only if it contains all the prescribed terms and is properly executed.

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Hi ScarletPimpernel

 

Does that mean my application form is not properly excuted, also when i get in tonight, i'll post some interesting info they sent me, i do not have time to scan and upload at moment,

 

Cheers

AWA

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Hi ScarletPimpernel

 

Does that mean my application form is not properly excuted, also when i get in tonight, i'll post some interesting info they sent me, i do not have time to scan and upload at moment,

 

Cheers

AWA

 

Amex applications from circa 2004-prior dont tend to have the prescribed terms on them, they used to send stuff with the card but thats not the same as having the info on the document you sign :-D The card they send you cannot be the executed agreement as its not signed by both parties :-D

 

S.


Are You as Anonymous on CAG as You Think You Are? *Link*

 

The CAG is a free help site,should you be offered help that requires payment,please report it to site team.

 

Deal with your debts:

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***** SERIOUSLY IN DEBT, DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO, TRY NationalDebtLine's MoneySteps *****

 

 

IMPORTANT: Please take my advice in the spirit it is given and on the basis that I am expressing my opinion, These opinions are not endorsed by CAG in anyway and are offered informally without prejudice or warranty of any kind. These opinions are solely based upon the knowledge I've gained from this fantastic site and life in general. I have NO legal training.

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Hi S and ScarletPimpernel

 

After reading over the letter amex sent me, i've had another look at what they sent me, below is the t&c's and application form, the t&c's where photocopied onto the back of the 2nd application form they sent me.

 

If you look at the apr rate it varies from 26% to 21.5%, but if you look at the apr rate on the t&c's they claim came with the card is says apr 19.9%, not sure whether that makes an differance

 

Amex20Aug2009Page10001.jpg

 

Agreement.jpg

 

Also here are the t&c's i assume they claim they sent with the card, note at the bottom no signature from me and them, and at the top no name for cardholder or postal address, why send me t&c's if no signature on them, as the SAR requested copies/or original documents?

 

PossibleTermsPostedNoSigniture.jpg

 

Now if they are the original t&c' s sent due to my SAR, why are they not signed, and what is the best response i can send back?

 

Cheers AWA

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No doubt they will claim the t&c that they have photocopied onto the back of the application page ARE the terms that were printed on the back, but without the original its just there say so.

 

I notice the date received says 13th nov and yet the date stamp on the application page says 23rd nov?

 

Does the application state see overleaf for t&c or reference these t&c on the back at all? I suspect not.

 

Amex like to flood s78 requesters with terms and conditions I guess this is to make up for the fact their agreements/applications dont have them on originally :-D

 

S.


Are You as Anonymous on CAG as You Think You Are? *Link*

 

The CAG is a free help site,should you be offered help that requires payment,please report it to site team.

 

Deal with your debts:

STEP ONE - Dont Panic! | STEP TWO - Priority & Non Priority Debts | STEP THREE - Personal Budget Sheet | STEP FOUR - A SAFE bank Account | STEP FIVE - Dealing with Priority Debts | STEP SIX - Non-priority Debts | STEP SEVEN - Non-Priority Debt-Repayment Opt1 | STEP EIGHT - Non-Priority Debt-Repayment Opt2 | STEP NINE - Perils of Consolidation | STEP TEN - RE-Evaluate Frequently

 

***** SERIOUSLY IN DEBT, DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO, TRY NationalDebtLine's MoneySteps *****

 

 

IMPORTANT: Please take my advice in the spirit it is given and on the basis that I am expressing my opinion, These opinions are not endorsed by CAG in anyway and are offered informally without prejudice or warranty of any kind. These opinions are solely based upon the knowledge I've gained from this fantastic site and life in general. I have NO legal training.

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Hi

 

Forgot to mention, when sent SAR, no conditions where supplied, when i wrote back asking for t&c's they sent me conditions dated 13 Nov 2001, then with letter recieved about investigation sent Conditions again but this time no "received 13 Nov 2001" stamp, if original conditions, stamp would be on all 3.

 

Cheers AWA

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Hi S

 

No, it just says "its important that you read the terms and conditions", but does not say where they are.

 

AWA

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Hi CAG

 

Seem to be getting no-where with amex, they have sent me a application form and t&c that have not been signed by me or them and are now telling me this is their final response.

 

I'm not in default with amex, so anyone have a good idea on how i should now proceed.

 

If amex only have an application form and t&c not signed by either party what is the best way to take them to court, do i take them to court for not complying with SAR (not supplying me with agreement and signed t&c's which i requested), or something else.

 

Previous posts:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/amex/226055-issue-court-action-against.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/amex/217844-reply-amex.html#post2456490

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Hi CAG

 

Seem to be getting no-where with amex, they have sent me a application form and t&c that have not been signed by me or them and are now telling me this is their final response.

 

I'm not in default with amex, so anyone have a good idea on how i should now proceed.

 

If amex only have an application form and t&c not signed by either party what is the best way to take them to court, do i take them to court for not complying with SAR (not supplying me with agreement and signed t&c's which i requested), or something else.

 

Previous posts:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/amex/226055-issue-court-action-against.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/amex/217844-reply-amex.html#post2456490

 

Entirely up to you really, was this a response to CCA or SAR?

 

Have you checked that the S.77/79 response (if CCA) contains all of the prescribed terms required for enforcement?

 

The best offence is defence - I can almost guarantee you that you would much rather be the defendant in an enforceability case

 

As for the SAR non compliance, there seem to be an increasing number of part 8 responses from the local courts re; Injunction with possibility of a costs order that you may want to investigate further.

 

Sorry, just read your other thread again......... did you request specific data within your SAR that you would reasonably expect to be complied with?

 

Have a search on here first and a good read before progressing further.

 

Gez

Edited by gezwee

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Hi

What i want to do is send amex some sort of court order asking them to produce the original agreement and the signed terms and conditions.

 

If they fail to produce them in court, i want to put the account into dispute and stop making payments until they do produce them.

 

I have read that if you put your account into dispute with amex and stop paying, they will still default you.

 

I have also read that if you do put an account into dispute, amex etc are not supposed to default you, or pass your details onto other companies.

 

So going to court and asking the court to enforce the dispute stopping amex from defaulting me is my main aim, whilst the dispute is ongoing.

 

Regards

AWE

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Hi AWE

 

I really think you need to take a step back on this one.

 

Any action you take against AMEX will be met with a defensive position (as would be expected).

 

There are several threads on here lately where the DJ has directed to part 8 rather than part 7 on issuing SAR non compliancy claim so you need to be sure that you are acting in your own best interests as you may leave yourself open to a costs order if you don't proceed properly.

 

You can of course send them the dispute letter and cease payment to the account if you believe they have not complied fully with your S.78 request under the CCA.

 

All I can advise is that they will rely on Mcguffick case to continue badgering you for payment and they will eventually default and terminate the account.

 

With regard to CCA compliance, they will use the recent Carey verdict to convince a judge that they have complied and it would be a hard won (if not impossible) battle for the claimant to prove otherwise.

 

IMHO I'd prefer to defend an action rather than issue proceedings.

 

If your intent is to cease payments then send the dispute letter and sit back and wait, building on your knowledge so that you are able to adequately defend should they bring proceedings against you.

 

Gez

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Hi AWE,

 

Do Amex say in their letter that what you have IS the agreement?

 

If it does I think it might help you later.

 

uteb


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