Angry With American Express

[rev.ian]

If you take Amex to court I am 100% positive they will defend, they will enlist a very expensive barrister. Should they win the costs to you will be huge.

Please check the resent ruling in Manchester High Court before you go ahead.

[ManSizedRooster]

can anyone help write a quick letter with all the correct wording and references to consumer credit act etc.

 

Quite honestly if you're asking this question you're probably not ready to start legal proceedings against AMEX. You need to have a visceral understanding of your argument and be able to communicate it clearly. As ever good luck in your pursuit, but please don't give AMEX an opportunity to own you

[AngryWithAmex]

Hi

 

About to send this letter to amex, any comments welcome before sending.

 

------------------------------------------------

 

Dear Sir/Madam

Thank you for your letter dated [Date], after doing a detailed investigation, I’m writing to inform you that this account is now in serious dispute for the following reasons.

1) I do not believe that the conditions you supplied where actually attached to the application form at the time it was completed by your sales rep in 2001.

2) The signature that is on the application form is not my signature from that time period.

I am now passing all the evidence I have to the Financial Ombudsman Service for them to investigate the above.

------------------------------------------------

Seems the signature is mine, but that is not how i signed my name from 1999 to 2003, more like from 2007 onwards.

I only discovered this because i was on a training course yesterday and at the end had to sign a form and put it back in the folder, i then looked at my signature going back over the years and realised how different it looks now compared to back then.

Not sure how amex have got my most recent signature, but 2-3 years ago i was off work on the sick and claimed on my insurance, plus i have wrote to them in the past and signed the letter.

AWA

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi there,

 

1. I think you should say that you do not believe the conditions "were actually part of the application form..." The House of Lords' Authority on this is clear that they must be "within the four corners" of the agreement. This means that "attached" by a pin or paper clip or staple wouldn't meet this criteria, and nor do T&Cs in a separate leaflet. They must form part of the one document.

 

DD

[AngryWithAmex]

Hi DD

 

Thanks, will do that.

 

AWA

[AngryWithAmex]

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Edited April 19, 2010 by AngryWithAmex
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[AngryWithAmex]

Hi

Had a reply back from fos, and they claim that as i have been using the card for 9 years and never mentioned anything about the t&c's then the agreement is NOT unenforceable.

 

So can anyone help with the letter below as i disagree with their finding and need to submit a reply quickly.

 

--------------------------------------------

Dear [Name]

Thank you for your letter dated [date], as per my previous email, please find my reply to your letter.

American Express claim that the applications form that was completed in [year] is a true copy and contain the prescribed terms and conditions, i contest this on the grounds that as stated, i sent you their copies of the application form and terms and condition in my original complaint and i pointed out that American Express had copied the terms over the top of the received stamp, proving that the terms were not on the back of the application form. You stated that “In the event you had not completed the application or failed to receive the terms and conditions, it seems reasonable to suggest you would have raised this at the time”

As i completed the application form at a motorway service station, at the time i was not aware that an application for credit was a valid credit agreement, and should contain terms and conditions.

Also as pointed out earlier the terms were not on the application form and The House of Lords' Authority has made it clear that they must be "within the four corners" of the agreement. This means that "attached" by a pin or paper clip or staple wouldn't meet this criteria, and nor do terms and conditions in a separate leaflet. They must form part of the one document.

American Express also claim that the card was sent in a card carrier containing the terms and condition, American Express also claim that the terms and condition sent where the original terms and conditions at the time, if that was correct, why does the photocopied terms on the application form contain a different APR rate than the ones they claim where sent in the post. Also the terms and conditions sent in the post do not have my name or address and have not been signed by myself or American Express.

As pointed out in OFT Guidance on sections 77/78/79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

2.21 “The creditor or owner must ensure that it gives the terms and conditions applicable at the time the contract was executed. It was held in Carey v HSBC Bank plc 9 that, subject to spelling mistakes and similar discrepancies (described as 'low level omissions'), only those matters listed in regulation 3(2) could be omitted. The name and address at the time of execution must therefore be included, although, as Carey explains, that can be taken from any source available to the creditor or owner.10”

My name and address is not on the terms and condition American Express claim where sent to me with the card.

Regarding my signature, as stated earlier i completed the application form at a motorway service station, if i forgot to sign the form at the time, then American Express should have either posted a new form out, or torn the application form up. Back in 2001, sales reps trying get customer to sign up would more than likely have been paid a commission for every form that was completed; therefore there was nothing to stop them from easily signing the form when the mistake was realised, or at a later date getting my signature from another letter or PPI form and copying the signature across, as you are aware, both of these methods have been used by other companies in the past. Has American Express shown you the original application form or had the signature tested to ensure it is my signature.

 

Therefore at the very least, this agreement must be ruled as unenforceable.

-----------------------------------------

 

Thanks

AWA

[the_shadow]

err why are you arguing with the FOS, they CANNOT rule on enforceability and really should only be used in complaints about charges or attempting to obtain sight of the original agreement.

 

ONLY A COURT can rule on enforceability... indeed the FOS will ALWAYS take the side of a bank/financial institute over a layman as they'll rule on morality rather than breaches of the CCA1974.

 

S.

[Desperate Daniella]

Have they not said anything in the letter about the fact that you are saying this cannot be the original document?

 

DD

[AngryWithAmex]

Hi

Sorry for delay, due to nature of job, not been able to reply till now.

 

Hi the shadow

I complained to FOS as Amex sent me a leaflet about who to complain too.

 

Hi DD

Believe it or not, FOS say that because i used the card, then i entered into an agreement with Amex, even through i showed then evidence that the document is not the original

 

AWA

[gezwee]

 

Hi DD

Believe it or not, FOS say that because i used the card, then i entered into an agreement with Amex, even through i showed then evidence that the document is not the original

 

AWA

 

The Fos will not be interested, the judisdiction for decisions on enforcability remain with the county courts, anything outside of this is hearsay and interpretation.

 

Have a read of s62's thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/191784-shakespeare62-nastybank-49.html as hes's currently testing the validity of an agreement. Not sure how it will pan out but rest assured it will have an impact on Amex 'if' they are found to have manufactured the document

[AngryWithAmex]

Hi

 

Had another reply back from FOS, its seems they beleive that amex do not have to supply the terms and conditions to a credit agreement at the time of signing, but rather just post the t&c's with the card at a later date.

 

They claim that they take into consideration 'the law, regulations, regulator rules etc, how can they do that if the CCA states that t&c's must be part of the original document? then tell me that sending the t&c's in the post is OK, and they do not need to be part of the original document(I've already proved that the t&c's where never part of the original document.

 

Even through i have taken into account what the shadow and other have said, i do not agree with that and will appeal, any help with writing a good appeal would be helpful.

 

I have added their reply below.

 

 

And these are the t&c's they say they sent in the post, notice my name and address is missing, the t&c's are not signed by me or amex

 

 

Thanks

AWA

[Cristal]

I'm so sorry to intrude on your thread (go for it! Amex is the pits) - am desperately trying to find the name of the MD of American Express Europe Ltd. Have spent all morning on the phone to Amex, who refuse to give out his name 'as a matter of policy'. Gee, I wonder why!! So, if anyone can help, i'd be so grateful.....again, sorry to interrupt your excellent thread!

[Desperate Daniella]

Raymond Joabar is the UK CEO. I can't find an overall one for Europe. Maybe it's him? They are very bashful about giving out details of the Amex CEOs in Europe for some reason!!!!! India, Australia, etc., are listed as personnel on some lists but no European ones.

[Cristal]

DD, you are a total star!! Yes, wonder why Amex Uk is so reluctant to reveal their personnel......I have a few theories!!!

[Desperate Daniella]

Me too! Do you want his email address? I'm not certain if I can post that here, but I can pm you.

[Cristal]

that would be super helpful! thanks!

 

(sorry again for breaking into this thread!)

[rev.ian]

I found these

 

Country Manager

Werner Heinrich Decker

 

Direct Postal Address

American Express Europe Ltd

Belgrave House

76 Buckingham Palace Road

London

SW1W 9AX

 

 

 

Director

Alexander Filshie

 

Direct Postal Address

American Express Europe Ltd

Belgrave House

76 Buckingham Palace Road

London

SW1W 9AX

 

 

 

Director

Massimo Adriano Quarra

 

Direct Postal Address

American Express Europe Ltd

Belgrave House

76 Buckingham Palace Road

London

SW1W 9AX

 

 

 

Director

Brendan Gerard Walsh

 

Direct Postal Address

American Express Europe Ltd

Belgrave House

76 Buckingham Palace Road

London

SW1W 9AX

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi rev.ian,

 

How are you?

 

DD

[rev.ian]

Well thank you DD. very quiet these days but I think I have HFO about to start trouble.

Amex not nice to deal with.

BR.

Ian

[Desperate Daniella]

Good luck with HFO.

 

Amex are not nice to deal with. I trust you are praying for Brandon to win this Summer.

 

DD

[Cristal]

Fantastic! Thanks!

 

As to Amex not being nice to deal with .....what an understatement!!

[Desperate Daniella]

If I made an accurate statement about them the site might get sued. They always have watchers here.