Angry With American Express

[Monty2007]

Hi

Just quick question, i thought a defaullt notice was supposed to give you 14 clear days to pay, i received a default notice dated 06/11/2008 and asking for payment to be received by 20/11/2008 even though that is 14 days, surely taking into account 2 days postage(1st class) that only gives me 12 days. (I know this was last year, but some interesting developments have occured )

Am i correct in thinking that the default notice is invalid??

 

Regards

 

You are correct. Amex continue to error on DN's, all goes in your favour.

[AngryWithAmex]

Hi Monty2007

 

What would be my next step regarding the default notice, i have emailed company who sent me a letter this morning telling them they are in 'breach of section 10 of the data protection act' as account is in dispute and to remove all my details from their records

 

Regards

[Monty2007]

Hi Monty2007

 

What would be my next step regarding the default notice, i have emailed company who sent me a letter this morning telling them they are in 'breach of section 10 of the data protection act' as account is in dispute and to remove all my details from their records

 

Regards

 

It depends if you are wanting to remedy the defective DN? Amex have a very standard process, they will throw you to around 3/4 DCA's and then you will probably get Brachers (unless you are a chosen one and get special treatment up in London), they will offer you 50% off and then litigate. There is an occasional variation on this theme, and more tasty if you are up in Scotland (I assume you are not?!).

 

The CRA files are different, they won't remove these usually until there is a settlement pre- or post-litigation. They will claim that they have the right to process your data and update the CRA's. If you have lots of charges and fees then it may be possible to get the markers removed/changed but not easy IMO.

 

Depends what you want to achieve. Do tell more...............

[42man]

Have they terminated the agreement ?

[AngryWithAmex]

Hi

After sending amex a sar and cca, they have still failed to supply me with a valid credit agreement, anyone know what form i can get from the court to force them to supply it.

 

I know i can put the account into dispute, but reading some threads i do not want amex to default me, so strike 1st and get the court to order amex to supply it.

 

Thanks

[BankFodder]

Although it may seem very unfair, if they fail to let you have a valid credit agreement and you decide to treat the agreement as unenforceable and you decide to stop paying, then they will default you and there is nothing that you can do about it.

 

The recent judgement in MCGuffic (I'm not sure of the spelling) has dealt with exactly this point. Although the agreement becomes unenforceable, the unenforceable as he does not extinguish all the rights of the lender

[the_shadow]

Hi

After sending amex a sar and cca, they have still failed to supply me with a valid credit agreement, anyone know what form i can get from the court to force them to supply it.

 

I know i can put the account into dispute, but reading some threads i do not want amex to default me, so strike 1st and get the court to order amex to supply it.

 

Thanks

 

You could try a CPR31.16 request which is a request under court procedures for information PRIOR to court proceedings...

Take a look at this thread and read the 1st 10 or so postings...

 

BE WARNED tho, they will probably ignore both letters and you will have to file against them in court to force this through.

 

S.

[AngryWithAmex]

Hi BankFodder and the Shadow

 

Thanks for the reply, when i sent the sar and cca, all they sent me was an application form for american express card, please see link below for details of previous thread

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/amex/217844-reply-amex.html#post2456490

 

I have a feeling they do not have a valid credit agreement, but when they replied to cca, they stated that 'statements' verified credit agreement.

 

Thanks

[the_shadow]

Hi BankFodder and the Shadow

 

Thanks for the reply, when i sent the sar and cca, all they sent me was an application form for american express card, please see link below for details of previous thread

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/amex/217844-reply-amex.html#post2456490

 

I have a feeling they do not have a valid credit agreement, but when they replied to cca, they stated that 'statements' verified credit agreement.

 

Thanks

 

Ah ok, so they have produced the application which if it held the prescribed terms and was properly executed and headed correctly could become the "agreement" imo.

 

It would seem Amex didnt put the prescibed terms on that doc and hence it should be unenforceable in court.

 

They have sent you all they can send you, it appears to be unenforceable. As to there statement that statements verify the debt... utter tosh.. whilst this might be in place for agreements post 2007 if the court decides its just to enforce them, they are barred from enforcing agreements pre 2007 if the prescribed terms are not there.

 

You should be aware that Amex will never agree and you can expect a possible legal battle if you do challenge them. You need to read around the Amex forum for specific details of the next stages against them.

 

Amex forum

S.

[AngryWithAmex]

Hi

Can anyone let me know if what amex are saying is true, i do not believe that a application for credit form and then posting t&c's with card in 2001 constitutes a enforceably credit agreement

 

Previous Post:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/226055-issue-court-action-against.html#post2506041

 

Letters received:

 

 

 

Thanks

[maroondevo52]

Hi, AngryWithAmex.

 

I have merged both your threads on this, makes it easier for people to help.

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

[ScarletPimpernel]

You complained that they had failed to comply with a SAR, in that Amex did not include a copy of the agreement with the data they sent. It seems to me that the only defence to this would be for them to say that they do not hold agreements in a 'relevant filing system', or that they cannot readily identify them by name. You also complain that they failed to comply with a CCA request.

 

Their response is confusing; you say they haven't provided you with a copy agreement, and they waffle on about statements (the stuff about this being evidence etc. is specious, incidentally), and then say they have provided a copy of the signed agreement complete with prescribed terms (which would be a first!); but reading the letter carefully, I suspect that they are claiming that this was done not in response to your SAR or CCA request, but in the form of a card carrier way back when. They have not said that this was their final response.

 

This kind of smoke and mirrors response is typical of Amex, who seem to be utterly unable to confess to having duff agreements.

 

In my view, you should reply with a fairly short letter along these lines:

 

Dear Weasels

 

I refer to your letter dated (date) in response to my complaint.

 

I confess to being somewhat puzzled by your response, and would be glad if you would answer the following points:

 

1. You have not addressed my complaint that Amex failed to comply with my SAR. Please confirm that the data you sent me is all the data you hold on me.

 

2. You state that you supplied a copy of the signed credit agreement containing all the prescribed terms. The document you supplied in response to my s.78(1) request does not meet the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 because it does not contain the prescribed terms. Please therefore confirm which signed agreement, containing all the prescribed terms, signatures, and which meets all the requirements of the Act and Regulations, you are referring to.

 

3. You have not stated that your letter of (date) is your Final Response. So that I can escalate the complaint, should your response to this letter be unsatisfactory, please ensure that you mark your final response as such.

 

In the meantime, my position remains the same - that you have failed to supply a valid agreement, and that the matter between us remains in dispute.

 

Yours etc.,

[AngryWithAmex]

Hi ScarletPimpernel

 

Sorry for delay in replying, long 14hrs at work.

 

Can you verify 2 things for me if possible.

 

1) I've read on the forum that an agreement must have the t&c's contained within the agreement, therfore as they state that the t&c's where posted with the card after i signed the agreement(application form), does this mean that it does not comply with section 61 of the consumer credit act 1974 and is therefore unenforceable?

2) An application form is not a valid credit agreement and again is unenforceable?

 

Cheers AWA

[ScarletPimpernel]

1) Yes, the T&C must be contained within the four corners of the agreement, and not be on a separate document supplied later.

 

2) An application form can be an agreement, but only if it contains all the prescribed terms and is properly executed.

[AngryWithAmex]

Hi ScarletPimpernel

 

Does that mean my application form is not properly excuted, also when i get in tonight, i'll post some interesting info they sent me, i do not have time to scan and upload at moment,

 

Cheers

AWA

[the_shadow]

Hi ScarletPimpernel

 

Does that mean my application form is not properly excuted, also when i get in tonight, i'll post some interesting info they sent me, i do not have time to scan and upload at moment,

 

Cheers

AWA

 

Amex applications from circa 2004-prior dont tend to have the prescribed terms on them, they used to send stuff with the card but thats not the same as having the info on the document you sign The card they send you cannot be the executed agreement as its not signed by both parties

 

S.

[AngryWithAmex]

Hi S and ScarletPimpernel

 

After reading over the letter amex sent me, i've had another look at what they sent me, below is the t&c's and application form, the t&c's where photocopied onto the back of the 2nd application form they sent me.

 

If you look at the apr rate it varies from 26% to 21.5%, but if you look at the apr rate on the t&c's they claim came with the card is says apr 19.9%, not sure whether that makes an differance

 

 

 

Also here are the t&c's i assume they claim they sent with the card, note at the bottom no signature from me and them, and at the top no name for cardholder or postal address, why send me t&c's if no signature on them, as the SAR requested copies/or original documents?

 

 

Now if they are the original t&c' s sent due to my SAR, why are they not signed, and what is the best response i can send back?

 

Cheers AWA

[the_shadow]

No doubt they will claim the t&c that they have photocopied onto the back of the application page ARE the terms that were printed on the back, but without the original its just there say so.

 

I notice the date received says 13th nov and yet the date stamp on the application page says 23rd nov?

 

Does the application state see overleaf for t&c or reference these t&c on the back at all? I suspect not.

 

Amex like to flood s78 requesters with terms and conditions I guess this is to make up for the fact their agreements/applications dont have them on originally

 

S.

[AngryWithAmex]

Hi

 

Forgot to mention, when sent SAR, no conditions where supplied, when i wrote back asking for t&c's they sent me conditions dated 13 Nov 2001, then with letter recieved about investigation sent Conditions again but this time no "received 13 Nov 2001" stamp, if original conditions, stamp would be on all 3.

 

Cheers AWA

[AngryWithAmex]

Hi S

 

No, it just says "its important that you read the terms and conditions", but does not say where they are.

 

AWA

[AngryWithAmex]

Hi CAG

 

Seem to be getting no-where with amex, they have sent me a application form and t&c that have not been signed by me or them and are now telling me this is their final response.

 

I'm not in default with amex, so anyone have a good idea on how i should now proceed.

 

If amex only have an application form and t&c not signed by either party what is the best way to take them to court, do i take them to court for not complying with SAR (not supplying me with agreement and signed t&c's which i requested), or something else.

 

Previous posts:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/amex/226055-issue-court-action-against.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/amex/217844-reply-amex.html#post2456490

[gezwee]

Hi CAG

 

Seem to be getting no-where with amex, they have sent me a application form and t&c that have not been signed by me or them and are now telling me this is their final response.

 

I'm not in default with amex, so anyone have a good idea on how i should now proceed.

 

If amex only have an application form and t&c not signed by either party what is the best way to take them to court, do i take them to court for not complying with SAR (not supplying me with agreement and signed t&c's which i requested), or something else.

 

Previous posts:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/amex/226055-issue-court-action-against.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/amex/217844-reply-amex.html#post2456490

 

Entirely up to you really, was this a response to CCA or SAR?

 

Have you checked that the S.77/79 response (if CCA) contains all of the prescribed terms required for enforcement?

 

The best offence is defence - I can almost guarantee you that you would much rather be the defendant in an enforceability case

 

As for the SAR non compliance, there seem to be an increasing number of part 8 responses from the local courts re; Injunction with possibility of a costs order that you may want to investigate further.

 

Sorry, just read your other thread again......... did you request specific data within your SAR that you would reasonably expect to be complied with?

 

Have a search on here first and a good read before progressing further.

 

Gez

Edited January 19, 2010 by gezwee

[AngryWithAmex]

Hi

What i want to do is send amex some sort of court order asking them to produce the original agreement and the signed terms and conditions.

 

If they fail to produce them in court, i want to put the account into dispute and stop making payments until they do produce them.

 

I have read that if you put your account into dispute with amex and stop paying, they will still default you.

 

I have also read that if you do put an account into dispute, amex etc are not supposed to default you, or pass your details onto other companies.

 

So going to court and asking the court to enforce the dispute stopping amex from defaulting me is my main aim, whilst the dispute is ongoing.

 

Regards

AWE

[gezwee]

Hi AWE

 

I really think you need to take a step back on this one.

 

Any action you take against AMEX will be met with a defensive position (as would be expected).

 

There are several threads on here lately where the DJ has directed to part 8 rather than part 7 on issuing SAR non compliancy claim so you need to be sure that you are acting in your own best interests as you may leave yourself open to a costs order if you don't proceed properly.

 

You can of course send them the dispute letter and cease payment to the account if you believe they have not complied fully with your S.78 request under the CCA.

 

All I can advise is that they will rely on Mcguffick case to continue badgering you for payment and they will eventually default and terminate the account.

 

With regard to CCA compliance, they will use the recent Carey verdict to convince a judge that they have complied and it would be a hard won (if not impossible) battle for the claimant to prove otherwise.

 

IMHO I'd prefer to defend an action rather than issue proceedings.

 

If your intent is to cease payments then send the dispute letter and sit back and wait, building on your knowledge so that you are able to adequately defend should they bring proceedings against you.

 

Gez

[uptoeyeballs]

Hi AWE,

 

Do Amex say in their letter that what you have IS the agreement?

 

If it does I think it might help you later.

 

uteb