Angry With American Express

[AngryWithAmex]

Hi

1st time user on this site, so hopefully someone can give me some advice

 

6 weeks ago i phoned american express and informed them that i'm going to ibiza on holiday just so they knew i would be using my card abroad as i have done for the past 9 years, they said ok and that they would put a note on my file.

 

1 week before i was due to fly, i got a letter informing me that they were cancelling my cash withdrawal and reducing my credit limit, i phoned and asked them why and was told i was a high credit risk.

 

I then asked when in the last 9 years had i missed a payment or made a late payment, i also said if i was a high risk why 3 month ago did i get a letter of them telling me i was a excellent customer and they were reducing my intersted rate, they had no answer.

 

I then checked my experian score and file and that was ok, no problems, i'm now about to send away for a subject access request to try and find why i'm now a high risk.

 

So this is my question.

 

If they fail to supply all information required, or cannot provide a legal credit agreement, can i put the account into dispute and refuse to pay anything until they have provided me with all the information i have asked for, basically a vaid credit agreement, as when i applied for the card, it was in a motorway service station on the M6, you will have seen the sales reps trying to sell you goods.

 

As i said earlier i'm fuming with american express, if this is how they treat their customer after 9 years.

 

John

[clemma]

Hi

 

If they fail to supply all information required, or cannot provide a legal credit agreement, can i put the account into dispute and refuse to pay anything until they have provided me with all the information i have asked for, basically a vaid credit agreement

John

 

Yes. Also, you should get the information as to why they have reduced your credit limit etc.

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello AngryWithAmex!

 

...i'm fuming with american express, if this is how they treat their customer after 9 years.

 

You are not alone!

 

Check this Thread out...

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/amex/177451-amex-trouble.html

 

Cheers,

BRW

[AngryWithAmex]

Hi

Amex has replied to my subject access request. Can anyone check this agreement, i'm sure its not valid in fact its not even an agreement but a application with no t&c's.

 

I'm about to reply with following letter but need help filling the gaps.

 

Dear [name here]

Thank you for the information I received today (02/09/2009), after looking through the information I noticed that a valid credit agreement was not supplied.

A valid credit agreement must include the following:

Although the letter you sent states “Credit agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974”, it is not a valid credit agreement under UK law as the information above is missing.

Thanks

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi Angrywith Amex,

Unfortunately the pic is too small to read. Might be better to upload it to TINYPIC.COM (free and no registration needed) and follow the instructions on there.

Regards,

Elsa

[AngryWithAmex]

Hi Undercover-Elsa

Image posted below:

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi,

Certainly non of the prescribed terms on that. Any mention of T&C's on the rear of the document?

[AngryWithAmex]

Hi Undercover-Elsa

 

They have sent me no t&c's what so ever, so i'll draft a letter and request t&c's and credit agreement

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi

Bumping this for others on the morning shift to have a look.

Have a read of this page/thread: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/181538-advice-2-ccas-please-2.html

which gives some good background info/sample letter/legalese about a similar agreement.

Also, the "questionable agreement" letter template in the library could be incorporated to suit your circumstances, maybe tastefully blended with sections from the Account in Dispute template..read them through and use the parts that you need.

Have fun!

Elsa x

[AngryWithAmex]

Hi Elsa

 

Thanks, what i'll probably do is write to them again asking for a true credit agreement (what info should it contain) and the t&c's if they fail to supply the info, i'll go to the court and get a court order or what ever is required and send that. That way if they still fail to provide the info i will have the courts behind me already.

Cheers

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi..

It should contain "the prescribed terms"..a full explanation of which is here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/105315-my-agreement-enforceable-useful.html

They should also send you the T&C's at the time of taking out the card,plus any amendments to date, plus a full statement of account.

Elsa x

[AngryWithAmex]

Hi Elsa

 

Below is a quick draft of the letter i'm about to send, let me know what you or others think.

 

Dear Sir/Madam

Thank you for the information I received today (02/09/2009), after looking through the information I noticed that a valid credit agreement was not supplied.

A valid credit agreement must include the following:

Repayments

A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following-

(a) Number of repayments;

(b) Amount of repayments;

© Frequency and timing of repayments;

(d) Dates of repayments;

(e) The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.

Rate of interest

A term stating the rate of interest to be applied to the credit issued under the agreement.

Credit limit

This may be a term or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit.

You have sent me an application for an American Express Credit Card, which is not a credit agreement as it does not contain any off the above and stating that it’s a “Credit agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974” is not sufficient.

Also you have not sent me the original terms and conditions for this agreement which must be on the same form as the original agreement, as you sent me a photo copy of the application for a American Express Credit Card, then you must have the original copy with the terms and conditions on the back.

Finally you have not sent any letters that have been sent to me over the years which I also requested.

 

Cheers

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi..

If I may suggested the odd amendment....just my opinion

 

Dear Sir/Madam

Re: Account Number:

Thank you for the documentation received on 02/09/2009 in response to my formal request for a copy of the original credit agreement relating to the above account.

Unfortunately this account remains in dispute as the document supplied fails to satisfy the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, in that it does not contain the prescribed terms within the four corners of the agreement as follows:

 

Repayments

A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following-

(a) Number of repayments;

(b) Amount of repayments;

© Frequency and timing of repayments;

(d) Dates of repayments;

(e) The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.

 

Rate of interest

A term stating the rate of interest to be applied to the credit issued under the agreement.

 

Credit limit

This may be a term or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit.

 

What you have sent me an application for an American Express Credit Card, which is not a valid credit agreement as it does not contain any off the above and stating that it’s a “Credit agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974” is not sufficient.

 

In addition to not supplying a properly executed document containing the prescribed terms, you have also not supplied the original full terms and conditions for this agreement.

I would therefore be grateful if you could supply photocopies of these and clarify whether these were on the reverse of the agreement or on seperate pages.

I also require a statement of account to complete the formal request and look forward to receiving your response.

Yours faithfully

 

Re the letters..I don't think they are obliged to send them under a CCA Request..you could ask for them under a SAR though.

 

Anyone else have thoughts on the letter?

Elsa x

[AngryWithAmex]

HI Elsa

 

Thanks for the draft, it was a subject access request i sent with the £10, all they sent back was a photocopy of the application form and all statements they have sent, no letters or anything else.

 

Cheers

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi,

 

Elsa's amendment is good. The prescribed terms must be contained within the four corners of the agreement and there is a High Court Authority on this.

 

Have a look at other Amex threads and find one with the same application form as yours (not mine!!!!) and see how they are progressing. I have seen this one before.

 

Also, Amex Default Notices are Invalid. Make sure you keep yours and the envelope if you still have it. They quote "14 calendar days from the date of this letter." This is totally wrong. Service is deemed as being two days from the date of the letter (if sent by first class post) so they are not giving anyone the correct time to remedy the default. Amex are not changing their Default Notices because if they do they are admitting they are invalid. Lucky we know about this on CAG!!

 

DD

[AngryWithAmex]

Hi DD

 

Thanks, when i post the letter do i give them 14 days + 2 to reply or longer, will be posting the letter tomorrow.

 

Cheers

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi again

Sorry..I didn't notice it was from a SAR...which template did you use? The debt library one is a much more comprehensive request.

You need to amend the letter again to add that you require ALL data held on you including letters, computer records, default notices and termination letters if applicable.

Also, (and anyone-please correct me if I'm wrong on this!) I'm a little concerned that failure to comply with a SAR request, while giving cause for complaint to the ICO, may not provide you with the same "protection" as failure to comply with a formal CCA request "pursuant to Section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974". In this case failure to respond with the 12 + 2 day timescale renders them unable to (legally) enforce the debt and you (legally) able to withhold payment until they do.

Therefore, if you haven't ever sent a CCA request for this account I would do it now to "cover your ass"

Elsa xx

[AngryWithAmex]

One other note, i have never received a default letter, this all come about when a few days before i was due to go on holiday, they cancelled my cash withdrawals and reduced my credit limit, i was fuming so i really wanted to find the reason why.

Cheers

[AngryWithAmex]

Hi

Just posted amemded letter and cca letter today, see whats comes back this time.

One point, if they still do not send me a valid credit agreement and i stop paying can and will amex default me and put a record on my credit file, or will they then be breaking the law.

Cheers

[rev.ian]

One other note, i have never received a default letter, this all come about when a few days before i was due to go on holiday, they cancelled my cash withdrawals and reduced my credit limit, i was fuming so i really wanted to find the reason why.

They did the same to me.

Amex wrote to me “ We do not have the terms and conditions from when you opened the account”.

I will keep that letter nice and safe for when they go to Court.

[Kollontai21]

Wha...?!

 

They wrote saying that they 'dont have the T&Cs from when you opened the account'?

 

A site administrator needs to take note of this and collate the dates that accounts where Amex say they 'dont have the T&Cs from that time' were opened. Another Amex thread starter has had what appears to be a similar form, with copies of T&C pages from elsewhere supplied.

 

My reasoning is that if Amex dont have T&Cs from that time, they just dont have T&Cs from that time - for all customers who opened accounts then.

 

Too complicated to organise...?

[rev.ian]

That account was opened 01/04

[AngryWithAmex]

Hi

Update as to what is happening, received letter today from amex containing a copy of application and terms and conditions, with covering letter.

 

...........................................

 

Please find enclosed a copy of your original application and terms and conditions for the above account. These documents form the executed agreement between you and american express. Please see the statements we have sent you previously to validate the debt held.

 

Thank you for your £1 cheque in respect of the request for information pursuant to s78 cunsumer credit act 1974. However, on this particular occasion we are happy to waive the fee and thersfore return the cheque to you.

 

...........................................

 

The copy they send me is the same as above and on the back they have stamped 'Received' with the date and then photo copied the terms over the top on the back which do not even fit the page.

 

Still no valid credit agreement just application for card.

 

Will now take it to the next level, has anyone any good link dealing with amex.

 

Thanks

AngryWithAmex

[Louzepher]

It appears that Amex are looking to minimise their debt exposure by halving credit limits as and when they want .

 

Check your agreement and see if they have complied with the notice period .

 

If not they are in breach but then get a lawyer or a good Cit Ad branch because your wandering in to contract law and they have a heap of lawyers on their pay role

[AngryWithAmex]

Hi

Just quick question, i thought a defaullt notice was supposed to give you 14 clear days to pay, i received a default notice dated 06/11/2008 and asking for payment to be received by 20/11/2008 even though that is 14 days, surely taking into account 2 days postage(1st class) that only gives me 12 days. (I know this was last year, but some interesting developments have occured )

Am i correct in thinking that the default notice is invalid??

 

Regards