CL finance/cohen claimform - old abbey [MBNA] Credit card 'debt'

[anney63]

Hello

I spent some time helping my son get on track with his finances.

 

 

I claimed a number of bank and credit card charges back.

 

 

I of these was against MBNA (Abbey)

We agreed to pay a monthly sum to clear the balance of the debt,

 

 

Looking back over the paperwork I note that there are 3 different credit card numbers against the same account.

 

 

My son had only 1 card.

Does this mean he should have had a new agreement when a new card was issued?

He doesn;t even have a card and hasn't since we began all this abount 18 months ago.

 

 

I have cancelled the Direct Debit for the moment.

Should I send £3 for a copy of the CCA on each account or just £1 .

 

 

I am also wondering if we could claim any payments back a bit cheeky I know but this doesn't seem right.

 

 

first things first get the credit agreement .

 

 

Appreciate any help

[creditcardmug]

Hi send a CCA request to whomever is the latest outfit to be claiming money from you, letter n in the templates, they have 14 days to reply, if no reply send account in dispute letter and stop paying, come back here when they start complaining.

 

Btw its only £1

[anney63]

Thanks for quick response

[anney63]

Hello again

well today just as the 30 days after the original 14 day limit request

 

 

I have had a copy of what they call an agreement.

It actually looks like a tear off slip on the bottom of a form and is very small print

 

 

it has credit agreement regulated by consumer credit act 1974 and dated 18/09/02 the with the heading IMPORTANT- DATA PROTECTION ALSO

 

 

attached is a copy of the whole agreement but on looking at it it could be a copy of an up to date agreement as the charges for being over credit limit is £12.00.

 

 

I know they were more than this as I have already claimed bank charges.

so in effect it is not showing me the original agreement.

only the signature strip on the bottom .

 

 

I also am a bit bothered that they have issued 3 different credit card numbers.

 

 

the letter quotes 1 number the statement they have attached quotes another number

 

 

so how do I know that this all ties up. Can I dispute this HELP

[underdog13]

The 30 day limit after the 12 day statutory reply time does not apply anymore; they have 12 full working days to comply with your CCA request (ie, the 12 working days begins the day after they sign for receipt of your letter).

 

Does the so-called agreement contain all the prescribed terms (credit limit, repayments, etc), or refer you to terms and conditions?

 

If they do make reference to terms and conditions, I believe they are supposed to supply the T&Cs in force at the time you took the agreement out.

[anney63]

Thanks for quick response.

 

 

I didn't get any response in 12 days

this has been received today 44 days after my request.

 

 

It has a credit reference number and a credit limit with my sons name and address on the left hand side of the slip.

 

 

You can actually see the perforated edge.

On the back which could be from anything as it has no signature and no perforated edge either ,

the heading says Financial and Related conditions.

 

 

The print is extremely small and very hard to read.

The Terms and Conditions are not the ones which were in place at the time of signing.

As the charges are less. (£12)

 

 

Also the statement card number and the card number on the letter don't match.

Can they just keep issueing new card numbers without new agreements.

My son has only ever had 1 card .

It does say before you sign this please refer to condition 11 of the Terms and conditions.

 

 

So really I need to write back and ask for the Terms and Conditions in place at the time .

 

 

I think this copy slip may have been sent with the card as it has been date stamped 25/09/02 which is when they would have received it back.

 

 

So it is definately a copy of the agreement but not of the terms and conditions.

 

 

Appreciate your help thanks

[underdog13]

You're welcome Anney63; glad to help:)

 

To fully comply with the CCA request the document MUST be legible. If it isn't legible, they have not complied and the account is still in dispute. It's best to write and inform them of this to make it 'official' - always send everything by recorded delivery and NEVER sign your name.

 

It seems they send out the current T&Cs now as standard; strangely this does comply with s78 and fulfils their duties for a CCA request but they would have to produce the original T&Cs in court - bizarre! Thing is, if they have a copy of the relevant T&Cs that applied at the time, you have to ask yourself why they haven't sent them!?! How are you supposed to check your agreement has the prescribed terms if they don't supply the other documents refered to in the act?

 

Not sure what to make of all the different numbers. I know sometimes the number changes with each new card and that your account number can be different from your card number. I think they deliberately make things more complex sometimes to confuse you.

 

If you want to dispute the legibilty of the agreement they sent you, (thereby keeping the account in dispute), one of the site team sent me a brilliant letter:

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Account Number: xxxx

 

Re; your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I note that you have replied to the above by sending your companies current Terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

 

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement.

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.” This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

 

Also the 'agreement' you have sent is NOT satisfactory as it is illegible I will bring to your attention this -

 

Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents)

Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557)

 

 

Quote:

2 Legibility of notices and copy documents and wording of prescribed Forms

 

(1) The lettering in every notice in a Form prescribed by these Regulations and in every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall, apart from any signature, be easily legible and of a colour which is readily

distinguishable from the .

(2) The wording of any Form prescribed by these Regulations shall be reproduced in copies of unexecuted or executed

agreements or in Notices of Cancellation Rights sent [by an appropriate method] under section 64(1)(b) or (2) of the Act

without any alteration or addition, except that--

(a) the creditor or owner may enter the name and address of the debtor or hirer in any Cancellation Form prescribed

by these Regulations; and

(b) every Form shall be completed in accordance with any footnote.

(3) Any such footnote shall not be treated as part of any Form prescribed by these Regulations and may be reproduced

in addition to any such Form.

(4) Where any such footnote requires any words to be omitted, those words shall be omitted or deleted.

 

 

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues

 

Yours faithfully,

print name. don't sign

 

Hope this makes sense and that it has been of some help.

[anney63]

Thanks a lot will send with tomorrow eyes tired from reading

Thanks again

[underdog13]

You're welcome:)

[anney63]

Well got a long drawn out reply.

It in effect states that have sent me what I asked for and that is that .

 

 

They now state that they can assign the debt to who they like for collection and carry on charging interest.

 

 

Still no readable copy of the agreement or copy of terms and conditions in place at the time.

 

 

What now !!!!

[underdog13]

If MBNA say that what they have sent you is all that they have, then they have just admitted that they do not have a legible copy of your agreement; so it won't be enforceable in court:)

 

If they transfer the account to a DCA, send off another CCA request to the new asignee straight away. DCA companies sometimes behave better than original creditors when dealing with CCA issues.

 

One of my friends had an MBNA debt sold to Equidebt and sent Equidebt a CCA request; they replied quite quickly and told my friend not to make any more payments until they receive the agreement from the original creditor. My friend hasn't heard a dicky bird since and hasn't had to make any payments for months:D

 

Wait and see who buys up the debt, then send off that request straight away. In the meantime, don't worry!

[anney63]

Just a bit worried that the debt is increasing with interest so maybe best let it go until DCA have it in hand Thank for help

[underdog13]

They can add interest - but if they don't have an agreement, how can they hope to collect on it?

[anney63]

The agreement looks ok but is unreadable so tiny. This is what I'm arging about

[underdog13]

Illegibilty should be enough to render it unenforceable:)

[anney63]

Just had a really nasty phone call from MBNA re the Abbey Credit Card as my son gave my name to deal with for him.

I am happy to do this as he hasn't a clue.

 

 

this person firstly woke me up which I was not happy about.

Then got quite nasty.

 

 

I stated that the account was in dispute as I was still waiting for a copy of readable copy of the agreement.

I have also sent off an SAR just to make sure I have claimed all charges.

 

 

She actually said that I am not bothered about my Sons Credit Rating as it is not in my name.

Lovely person.

 

 

She also stated that in a couple of months it would be passed to DCA

I then replied maybe they will be easier to deal with.

 

 

I had already asked her not to be so rude.

Never mind makes them feel a little bit powerful for a few minutes,

but I am quite a strong willed pensioner when need be.

So on we go and wait for the next chapter.

[creditcardmug]

If/when it gets to a DCA, post on here again, for the "bemused letter" to send them, that will get rid of them.

 

Dont speak to any of them on the phone...it only gives you indigestion:)

[anney63]

Hello again

thought I would send a new SAR to Abbey Credit Card.

Got paperwork today.

Has transactions on it and dates but no balance

 

 

just every now and again interest re balance and then a balance.

 

 

But no end column with a running total .

 

 

Nor manual Interventions notified and I know there were phone calls etc.

 

 

They have also said no charge but haven't sent my cheque back.

 

 

Should I request data re paragraphs 2 and 3 of the SAR.

and can I request balances there isn't even an up to date balance on there.

 

 

HELP I.ve got a feeling that I may be able to claim PPI as this surely must be misold as my son is and was self employes.

 

 

It seems that it was this which made him go over credit limit

[creditcardmug]

You need to write to them, and reiterate that your lawful request means they MUST supply you with ALL of the data they hold on you,under the Act, failure on their part will mean a report being filed with the Information Commissioners Office, by way of a formal complaint!

 

You must be very firm with them, don't pull punches.

[anney63]

Thanks a lot all ready will send in the morning.

[anney63]

Hello again just had a quick look at the list sent to me absolutely unbelievable

I have no idea what the balance is as not quoted

but do note that from Feb 03 everything on this list is either

PPI , Interest or Charges. apart from payments made.

 

 

I know at one time I did claim Charges back but Unfortunately when I moved house the paperwork went astray.

 

 

As I have sent an SAR do they have to send the letters etc re this.

as I believe my son was missold PPI.

 

 

the copy of the agreement which is so small unreadable does not have a box for PPI .

I have added the CCA request again to mys letter to see what Abbey come up with as it was them who issued the card albeit and MBNA card.

 

 

There is a couple of payments on there which they have described as monetry adjustments.

Which I think are the charge refunds.

 

 

A lot of the overcredit limit charges have been caused by the PPI taking it slightly over.

I did reach an agreement on this card and paid a sum each month out of my bank to help my son out but have now retired.

 

 

They have started added fees and interest again.

The credit limit on this account was originally 3500.

and I know when I claimed the charges it was around 5600.

The extra 2000 was made up of charges interest and PPI and yet when he was out of work he couldn't claim on his ppi

 

 

so I have so much work to do on this.

Just wanted to check what information they have to send

 

Just had another quick look at paperwork which is now piling up and find a credit card statement dated Oct which is a different card no and even states there is an available to spend balance.

but this card has never been in my sons possession

he has only ever had one card.

 

 

So what is going on also the address is Abbey Credit Card not MBNA

so they are who I am going to deal with.

 

 

I'vw got some letters and info from MBNA and some from Abbey.

Slightly different address very confusing but I'll get there.

[anney63]

Hello

I sent an SAR to Abbey Card/ mbna expecting to get a copy of the form showing PPI was requested and the policy.

I just received a small slip which is I believe an enforceable agreement albeit very small

 

 

It shows a Cr Limit and financial & related conditions on the back,

it looks like a tear of slip.

 

 

My main concern is that there is absolutely nothing relating to PPI

and yet I have been charged from the start in Sept 02.

 

 

I have a copy of the transaction list from Feb 03, BUT NO STATEMENTS SHOWING WHAT INTEREST RATE WAS USED OR RUNNING BALANCE.

 

 

So I haven't got the full list to do a spreadsheet for my claim.

I am self Employed and was told a card would not be issued without PPI.

So how do I do the spreadsheet without the full story and what interest do I charge on each payment.

 

Oh dear such a lot of questions Help. Why do I offer to help my kids.

 

Edited February 28, 2009 by anney63

[hellhasnofury]

Hello

I sent an SAR to Abbey Card/ mbna expecting to get a copy of the form showing PPI was requested and the policy. I just received a small slip which is I believe an enforceable agreement albeit very small It shows a Cr Limit and financial & related conditions on the back, it looks like a tear of slip. My main concern is that there is absolutely nothing relating to PPI and yet I have been charged from the start in Sept 02. I have a copy of the transaction list from Feb 03, BUT NO STATEMENTS SHOWING WHAT INTEREST RATE WAS USED OR RUNNING BALANCE. So I haven't got the full list to do a spreadsheet for my claim. I am self Employed and was told a card would not be issued without PPI. So how do I do the spreadsheet without the full story and what interest do I charge on each payment.

Oh dear such a lot of questions Help. Why do I offer to help my kids.

 

 

If they have not provided this information then send them a SAR non compliance letter, giving them a further 7days,and spell out to them the information that is lacking:D

[anney63]

Thanks HHNF

Done andposted recorded. This is now the 3rd request for statements and PPi info. I don't think they are reading the letters properly.

See what this one brings. !!!!

[anney63]

Hello again.

Well I kept following this through and requesting the data the last letter I sent is copied below. Now out of the blue I have a county court summons from CL Finance for the balance they say is owing on the card. I have no letter of assignment. I did get a letter threatening to put the debt on to a third party but not letter when they actually did it. I got a call from a guy who said he was a solicitor but did not discuss the situation with him he was rather rude. What now obviously I have to acknowledge service of this.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I do not acknowledge any debt to your company

Further to your correspondence dated 16/04/2009 I draw your attention to my previous correspondence dated 22nd January 2009, 26/03/09 and 20/04/09

I re-iterate that until my request for information under the consumer credit act 1974 and Subject Access Request has been complied with, this account remains in dispute.

As a result of this dispute, you may not:

* demand any payment on the alleged account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* add further interest or any charges to the alleged account.

* pass the alleged account to a third party.

* register any information in respect of the alleged account with any credit reference agency.

* issue a default notice related to the alleged account.

I also take this recent corresp9ondence to indicate that you are still continuing to process my personal data, which puts you in breach of the data protection act.

If any correspondence id received from yourself without full compliance with my request for information under the consumer credit act

I will report you to the regulatory authorities and issue court proceedings for this breach

Yours faithfully.