Growing HSBC Managed Loan Advice

[djwigster]

Hi all, first post so please be gentle

 

Unbeknown to me, my darling wife has had some fairly serious debts which date back to before we were married. I am currently waiting on a SAR to get the full story, but as far as I can tell, back in 2003 she had a personal loan, credit card and overdraft with HSBC, which was consolidated into a managed loan of around £5000 in July 2003.

This is bad enough, but it would seem that this was re-jigged/topped up 3 times so that by Nov 2004 it was for £19000!!

I have calculated that she has paid over £15000 on it, and the current balance is approx £14000, with the £220/month payments actually only lowering the balance by £100/month approx.

 

I was, as you can imagine, fuming about this when I found out but now need to deal with it. So, a few questions:

 

1. What are my chances of getting the managed loan written off as unenforcable? Obviously I can post the CCAs when I have them, but as a general guide am I wasting my time, or are there ways and means to get rid of these things? (The last re-jig was done in July 2005 if this helps).

 

2. Is is legal/good practise for a managed loan to be increased in value by nearly 4 times the original amount within 16 months?

I was under the impression that these types of loans were for bad credit risks, who are obviously no good with money. It seems a bit bizarre of the bank to want to lend more out to these people...unless of course they only had their interests at heart.

 

3. If things get nasty and bailiffs are involved would they be able to take anything of "mine" in the house (house is in my name only, and I can prove I have paid for 99% of the valuable things in the house).

 

Thanks in advance!

[johnnymitch]

Hi DJW, welcome to the forum

 

Well , you have a number of issues to address there - but the first I think should be obtaining copies of the agreements and as you suggest, posting them on here for advice .

 

Until you have that you have to really just hold on , but do a bit of reading round the threads on this site , so you can get an idea of how to proceed ..........

 

You are right of course , the Bank should not have been lending further on Managed Loans - these are supposed to be a short-term measure to help someone through a temporary difficulty and are supposed to be reviwed periodically to see if they can be re-structured to the customers benefit - not the banks coffers........ but as far as I know it's not illegal - IMHO it's unethical and unprofessional , but that's the banks all over these days .

 

It could be that a complaint to the Financial Ombudsman may bear fruit , if they consider the increase of the Loan to be irresponsible and unethical , here is the link if you want to try from that angle as well :

 

Financial Ombudsman Service

 

 

As regards the Bailiffs - this forum may help you with that :

 

Bailiffs and Sheriff Officers - The Consumer Forums

 

it's got a lot of useful info on what Bailiffs can and cant do ........

 

By all means come back and ask if you need further assistance - someone will answer - and we're user-friendly on here .....

[djwigster]

Thanks for the warm welcome and advice

 

Thanks also for those links - most useful, and some very interesting threads on the bailiffs forum!

 

Will post again when I get the info from HSBC.

[djwigster]

Just a quick update. Received a letter from HSBC saying that they are in the process of actioning my request and will be providing me with "either copy statements or a report detailing any charges" so I can claim these back.

 

I have this morning sent them a letter basically saying that this is unacceptable, asking which part of "subject access request" they are struggling to understand, further reinteration of the data I require (ALL!), confirmation that they've had my £10, and a reminder that the clock is still ticking from my first letter of the 8th July!

 

Will let you know how the cretins respond

[johnnymitch]

Well done djw , keep 'em on the back foot - they're trying to get away with this garbage too often these days......

[djwigster]

OK, another update for you.

 

We received a letter from HSBC on the 6th August saying that they have accepted our request for a SAR to be carried out and that "the data will be dispatched on or before 12th August 2009 to your nominated branch at xxxxxx"

 

Despite numerous visits to the branch and phonecalls chasing people up it would seem that nothing has yet turned up at the branch. We are now way over the 40 days from the original request (8th July) so what's the next stage please...a letter something like this?:

 

----------

 

LETTER BEFORE ACTION

Section 7 – Data Protection Act 1998

 

Dear xxxx

 

Reference your letter dated 6th August 2009 (copy enclosed for your information).

 

In your letter you state that data you hold on me will be dispatched to my nominated branch on or before 12th August 2009. To date no such data has been received at the branch for me to collect.

 

You have therefore failed to comply with my Data Protection Act Subject Access Request dated 8th July 2009 (copy letter enclosed).

 

If you do not comply within the next 7 days I shall seek a Court order obliging you to do so together with damages at the discretion of the Court and without any further notice. I will also be notifying the Information Commissioners Office of your non compliance.

 

Yours faithfully

 

----------

 

Thanks

Edited August 25, 2009 by djwigster

[Castlebest]

Hiya djwigster, thats spot on .

 

pete

[djwigster]

Another quick update...

 

Had a response to the above "letter before action" I sent and....youre never going to believe this....HSBC reckon they made a mistake in their last letter and it should have said that the SAR will be delivered to our local branch on the 12th September, not 12th August.

 

Im obviously going to believe that as Im so gullible !!

 

Im also going to believe them when they go on to say that although they received my first SAR request letter on the 11th July, as they only "accepted it for processing" on the 4th August, they will still be within the 40 days limit stipulated by the data protection act !!

 

....and Im definitely going to report them to the information commissioner :D

[johnnymitch]

Hi djw,

 

It doesn't matter when they 'accept it for processing ' (cheeky beggars!) ...... If you have the date they signed for it , or allow 2 days for first class post to arrive ... then the 40 day clock starts ticking from there ....

 

So, stick to your timetable not theirs .....

[djwigster]

As per revised title, we have now received a huge box full of documents comprising:

 

1 x CD of phone calls

1 x DVD which seems to be password protected

In excess of 3000 sheets of computer print outs

200 sheets of other information including some CCAs etc.

 

I will give more feedback when Ive been through it all, but just one quick point...there's nothing about any PPIs on the loans (apart from the payment data on the CCAs), and not a lot else about all of the loans (no demands and needs sheets, statements of means sheets or anything like that)...is this usual for managed loans upwards of £20K?

 

Thanks

[djwigster]

I've finally managed to have a little look through some of the info after being on holiday for a bit, and by the looks of the CCA's only the latest loan is a managed one (even though the others appear as managed loans on the bank statements).

 

So, this may change things a bit

 

Anyway, here's the CCA for that latest loan...any comments?

 

 

 

 

 

All help gratefully received, thanks

[johnnymitch]

It seems to be all there djw ......

 

But there would appear to be a discrepance in the calculation of repayments ...

 

144 x £219 = £31536

 

The amount they said it was costing you was :

 

16820.00

+ 14643.25

= 31463.25

 

I suspect the final payment should have been something other than £219.00,to make the sum right it should have been £147.25 ...but it's their mistake I reckon ..

 

This would make an overcalculation of £62.75 ...... I believe ANY discrepancy should render this account unenforceable ..... which doesn't mean it goes away , but they can't chase you for it.... you can pay it at your leisure .....

 

perhaps someone else would like to check my calcs on this and confirm my reasoning on the unenforceability aspect ..... I know it's somewhere on the forum , just can't find it at the moment .......

Edited September 29, 2009 by johnnymitch
Afterthought .......

[johnnymitch]

Ah ! have a look at atwozee's thread on thjis djw .... this may help you see what I was getting at ... :

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/182515-hsbc-managed-loan-cca.html#post1968721

[djwigster]

Thanks Jonnymitch...hadnt spotted that!

 

It looks good as there is definitely a discrepancy on my calculator too and it isnt even in our favour unlike those in the thread you mention above (I like the fact that the agreement can be made unenforcable even if the mistake IS in your favour...shame for the banks eh )

 

However, a question before I run off and get too excited: my wife rang HSBC earlier this year to reduce payments by half for 3 months as she was struggling with the payments (this was before I knew about the loan

). They agreed to this verbally and she has never received any paperwork about it.....would this have any adverse bearing on the above? (I think the answer should be "no", but need reassurance!!)

 

Thanks again

[johnnymitch]

I wouldn't think so , after all they don't know you've spotted the apparent discrepancy yet .........

[djwigster]

Ok, I will follow the course of action detailed in Atwotzee's thread. Hopefully I will receive the letter back where they admit the mistake, but even if not I will still go for unenforcability.

 

Thanks again!!

[djwigster]

Here is their response. Comments please.

 

[djwigster]

Bump

[johnnymitch]

I think they're waffling a bit on this to be honest , djw , but I'm not absolutely sure ..... have another look at atwozee's post on here ..... it may clarify it in your mind ... maybe you need to ask them to give you a detailed breakdown ......

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/182515-hsbc-managed-loan-cca.html#post1968797

 

I still think if the figures don't tally ...... it's unenforceable .....

 

Ah , here we are .... atwozeeagain .....

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/190821-hsbc-does-incorrect-unenforceable.html#post2062528

[djwigster]

Thanks for the reply Johnny.

 

Looking at the thread youve quoted, it would seem that my letter is the same as that received by presumeddead (post #41). Unfortunately thats as far as he has got by the looks of it.

 

Personally, I agree it still seems a bit fishy. They make a big play on the CCA to the fact that the figures quoted assume no change to the interest rate and will therefore change if/when the interest rate changes (as they state on the letter above). But to me, when writing the CCA they use the interest rate in force when the agreement is written so theres still no excuse for getting the figures incorrect even if they are liable to change at a later date due to fluctuations in the IR.

 

Anybody agree?! Do you think a judge would agree with my reasoning?!

[bones01]

Hi i have an issue going on at the moment with the HSBC regarding my managed loan and the figures not adding up , mine is currently with the FOS am waiting to see what their take is on it. Ill keep an eye on yours and see where they both go !

good luck

 

Bones x

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/176059-hsbc-charges-managed-loans.html

[djwigster]

Bones - very interesting thread! It would seem that you are in a slightly better position as they have actually admitted some wrong doing with your accounts figures.

 

Ref mine, I was going to send them something along the lines of this:

 

-----

 

Thank you for your letter dated 9th October in response to my query over how my managed loan figures were calculated.

Unfortunately your letter does not adequately answer my question.

You state that the interest applied to the Managed Loan is variable and that therefore there is always a discrepancy if you simply add the interest stated on the forms to the total amount of the loan, compared with the monthly payments.

However, the agreement actually quotes an APR “at the date of this agreement”. This should allow you to calculate and quote figures on the agreement that are 100% accurate at the date the agreement is drawn up. This is not the case, as there is a discrepancy in the figures of £72.75.

I look forward to your response etc etc

-----

I am a just a bit concerned that HSBC will say that they dont have to have a 100% accurate CCA as they clearly state that the interest varies.

 

My argument would be that yes, OK it does vary...but at the time the agreement was written they are quoting actual figures (albeit putting the word "variable" after some of them), so they should use these "at the time the agreement was written" figures to do the calculation, and this should still be 100% accurate on the CCA.

 

Hope you follow...!! Comments/advice please!!

[bones01]

Hi there , i had to keep pushing them with letters to actually state how there was an error , i played dumb and siad when they were explaining over the phone that it was incorrect i said "could you please send that in wriing so i have got proof that you wont claim the extra that i will owe at the end as your calculations wrong " and they did and again the final response that i have recieved again they have admitted a mathmatical error , but are not giving in still .

I am just double checking which is ny right way to proceed now cause i dont think the FOS will do very much .

I rang them and asked them to explain how the error in the intrest affected my figures and how if i calculated them they did not add up , then they proceed in telling you that their is an error and they wont reclaim the rest as actually i was saving £15 odd and should be gratefull lol..... i then just asked her to put in writing what she had told me so in years to come i had proof of what they were saying .

and hey presto they did .......

Might be easier to get them to admit it if they think you are not going to use it against them ...

Hope it goes well

sorry for the rant

x

[djwigster]

My problem is that it is my wifes loan and she is not very good on the phone, so I doubt whether shed be able to coax an admission out of them.

 

My thoughts at the minute are to go for the jugular and send them a letter similar to the above adding a reference to Wilson v Hurstanger Ltd [2007] and saying that I consider the loan to be unenforcable etc etc.

 

Would this be advisable or am I jumping the gun a bit?

[johnnymitch]

I can't see that it would do any harm djw ...... they're playing the silly card and waffling ..... the facts as I see them is that , if the loan is before April 07 , and it is incorrect by even a small amount ... then it is unenforceable ...... I can't see them going to court with it ... because IMHO the court's hands are tied by the law at the time ......