Triton Nat west issue

[chipaway1]

Hi there,

I've got an issue with Triton. They've recently apparently taken over my debt with Natwest for an unpaid loan.

I've recieved 3 letters from there all typically threatening.

I've since now sent them the CCA letter from this forum(thanks) and also made a point of not signing it as instructed also from this forum.However they've now sent it the letter back to me with the postal order and even the envelope saying as I've not signed the letter it doesn't match their records so therefore they will not process the letter. They've asked for me to resign it and send it back to be proccesed.

Interestingly enough though the return letter asking for a signature was sent from Natwest and not Triton.

Can i have some advice on the next courses of action please. I'm unable to pay very much a month at all.I've been in contact with CAB and they say I can't afford anything now other then like a tenner due to my circumstances changing so much recently.

[silverfox1961]

Hi,

There is some legislation about signatures but shamefully, I never remember to bookmark it so I can't point you towards it however, what I do is use this little beauty:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9902&d=1245343818

 

OR you could sign the letter with your signature but make it a bit different, photocopy the letter showing the different signature and should an agreement come back with the "new" signature, you will have them by the receptacles.

 

 

fox

[maroondevo52]

Thread moved.

[cerberusalert]

Send your CCA request back reminding them that the clock is still ticking, enclose the following & if they continue to mess around make a complaint to the OFT and the ICO;

 

Dear Sir,

 

You have stipulated that you require proof of my identity/signature before you comply with my CCA request, may I bring the following to your attention;

Data Protection Act Good Practice Notes:

 

2. Do you have enough information to be sure of the requester’s identity?

Often you will have no reason to doubt a person’s identity. For example, if a person with whom you have regular contact sends a letter from their known address it may be safe to assume that they are who they say they are.

 

Suffice to say that if the Information Commissioners Office are satisfied that if you have previously corresponded with me at this address then it is reasonable that I am the person I say I am, therefore there is no leglislation nor guidelines that you can hide behind in an attempt to avoid fullfilling my legal request.

 

If you still fail to comply to my legal request, I will have no other option than to complain to the Information Commissioners Office & if my complaint is upheld you could be liable to a £5000 fine.

 

Yours,

Print name do not sign.

http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/library/data_protection/practical_application/checklist_for_handling_requests_for_personal_information.pdf

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8861&d=1242456802

 

https://www.ico.gov.uk/Global/contact_us.aspx

[chipaway1]

Hi,

thanks for the info.

i will be sending this new letter but can you please advise as to where i am to send it?

does it go back to Triton as they were the ones who sent the orginal letter or do i reply to the sender of the last letter- Nat west, who returned it all back to me.

thanks for your help

[cerberusalert]

Send it to whoever replied to your CCA request,

[chipaway1]

will do.thanks.i'll keep you updated as to what happens.

[chipaway1]

Hi,

i got this response today...

from Nat west(again) Not Triton to whom it was sent.

 

'we are unable to action your request on the above act as we are unable to match the signature on your letter to the one we hold on file.therefore we require that you provide the bank with ID.ie a copy of your driving license passport etc.'

at this point they tell me to Take them to local Natwest branch for them to photocopy them!!!!!

it goes on...

'we would like to advise you that the bank is obliged follow guidelines(good use of grammar!) set out by the Data protection act 1988.One of the principles of the act is that any data held is secure,by disclosing any information to you without being confident that you are the account holder,the bank would be in breach of the act.

further to the above can you please provide the sort code and account number for which you require the information for.

we look forward blah blah'

 

couple of other issues here. I don't have an account number etc with them anymore cos THEY closed it.

they have once again returned the postal order.

talk about a game of cat and mouse.

Any ideas on how to proceed please.

 

[cerberusalert]

Make a complaint to the ICO https://www.ico.gov.uk/Global/contact_us.aspx and the OFT [email protected] and send Triton/Natwest;

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/571-failiure-to-provide-a-copy-of-the-agreement-within-the-prescribed-timescale

[2Grumpy]

The CCA doesn't require a signature to be supplied

 

This sounds like stalling

 

If they are not confident that yu are the account holder then they should not have been asking for payment from you!

 

Ask them to confirm that they will not be asking for any more money for the account if they are unsure of your identity. Alternatively sign with a cross! If they are happy to send demands for money to you at that address they should be happy to send a copy of the CCA to the same address.

 

If you really want to **** them off, do your own copy of your driving licence, blank out everything personal (signature, points, licence number etc), save as a low resolution jpg file, print, take it to the bank with the original for them to compare (don't do it at a counter where you have to pass it through glass or where they can do a runner and copy it) Tell them before you let them see anything that you will not allow them to copy your original documents, just compare with your copy.

 

When they ask why - relate my experience - NatWest took a few copies of my driving licence when I was trying to help my son sort out his account (getting me added to talk about his account to them). They sent the copies away to their service centre and later admitted that they lost the copies - they said misfiled, I presumed out with the rubbish again (see the ico website about natwest / rbos disposal procedures).

 

If the banks can't find copies of CCAs then they should not be trusted with copies of documents that could be used for id theft if they were just as careful careful with those.

[chipaway1]

I got a yellow card the other day from AIC (allied international credit) who say that they are collecting the debt on natwest's behalf and pay now.

i rang them and they were extremely unhelpful.i asked if they had bought the debt but they refused to tell me.

Bearing in mind that my original debt was with nat west , then triton now this.

I know they're all out to confuse me but i'm at the stage now where I've sent the CCA to Natwest which is now out of date (due to the signature thingy), do i simply CCA this company now as well?

Any ideas?

It looks like NATWEST have now not been able to produce the CCA and have sold the debt.But I'm not sure.

[cerberusalert]

Send AIC this; http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/574-letter-when-account-has-been-passed-on-whilst-agreement-request-is-in-dispute

[chipaway1]

Send AIC this; http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/574-letter-when-account-has-been-passed-on-whilst-agreement-request-is-in-dispute

 

did that thanks.

[chipaway1]

I got a reply to my last letter telling them the account was in dispute.

As with previous times i sent it to triton.

the letter I received said they didn't recognise my reference number!!

also could i sign i future,the best of all was i added that i wanted to know who i meant to be dealing as there are now 3 creditors involved all asking for the money and guess what.....

the reply came from RBS who I've NEVER dealt directly with EVER.

that's why they don't recognise my ref number so Triton are now passing my information everywhere!!

they returned my letter also.

 

so now there's 4 companies 'apparently' involved all of whom have sent me correspondence to me within the last month.

Nat west

Triton

AIC

RBS

 

And no-one has yet provided a CCA.

[cerberusalert]

Nat west

Triton

AIC

RBS

 

They are all the same group of companies.

[cerberusalert]

Time to complain;

 

 

Make a complaint to your local trading standards & the OFT, they are in clear breach of OFT guidelines & CPUT ;

 

Consumer Direct - Contact us

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/consumer_credit/DebtCollectionComplaintForm.DOC

 

The Office of Fair Trading: Contact us

 

[email protected]

 

 

tel: 020 7211 5823

 

The Office of Fair Trading: Debt collection practices

 

http://oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/consumer_credit/oft664.pdf

[chipaway1]

Time to complain;

 

 

Make a complaint to your local trading standards & the OFT, they are in clear breach of OFT guidelines & CPUT ;

 

Consumer Direct - Contact us

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/consumer_credit/DebtCollectionComplaintForm.DOC

 

The Office of Fair Trading: Contact us

 

[email protected]

 

 

tel: 020 7211 5823

 

The Office of Fair Trading: Debt collection practices

 

http://oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/consumer_credit/oft664.pdf

will complaining actually do any good though?

secondly if they can't work out between them who I'm meant to be paying how can anyone else including me?

i'll go to court quite happily on this mess they've created.

Is there a letter for me to send to RBS.

thanks

[cerberusalert]

Complaining always does some good although it might not seem to in the short term. Natwests tactics fly in the face of OFT guidelines.

 

Send RBS this;

 

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

 

Account no

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

 

Thank you for your letter dated ........, the contents of which are noted

 

Your attention is drawn to the fact that this account is subject to a serious dispute. On ......... I requested that ........... supply me a copy of the credit agreement covering this account pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 78. To date ........... have failed to comply with my request. Without production of the said agreement I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt to .............., nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’ as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

For the avoidance of any doubt I have included section 78(1) and 78(6) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which states…

 

78 Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of [£1], shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a) the state of the account, and

(b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and

© the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

 

 

Clearly as no agreement was supplied on request, this in no way complies with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and I now draw your attention to section 78 subsection 6 which states If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

 

Clearly this is a situation as described in S.78(6) Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the debt is unenforceable at this time. In addition, I draw your attention to section 127 (3) Consumer Credit Act 1974 which states

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the consumer credit act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

 

To clarify S.61(1) states

 

(1)A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

 

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

© The document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible

 

In addition the prescribed terms referred to in section 60 CCA1974 are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following—

 

1.Number of repayments;

2.Amount of repayments;

3.Frequency and timing of repayments;

4.Dates of repayments;

5.The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable

 

Therefore based upon the Consumer Credit Act 1974 this debt as it stands is unenforceable and should this proceed to litigation, a court is precluded from making an enforcement order under section 127(3) unless a true copy of the signed agreement is produced..

 

At the point where this account entered into the default situation as described in s78 (6) CCA 1974 no other charges are allowed to be added until such time as ............... become compliant with my request. As ................ are still not in compliance with my request I insist that the following takes place with immediate effect

 

All entries which refer to missed payments be removed from my credit file

All collection activities cease with immediate effect until ............. comply with my request from .date........... or such time as a court makes an enforcement order

In addition, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on Debt Collection

 

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

 

What I Require.

 

I require that you send me a true copy of the executed agreement as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. If you are unable to supply the requested documentation because no such agreement is in existence I require written clarification as such.

 

I require that you comply with my request within 7 days of the date of this letter. I will not correspond any further with you until I either receive a copy of the requested documents as laid down in section 78(1) CCA 74 or clarification that such agreement doesn’t exist. I am advised that should you persist in pursuing this debt ignoring the above information you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40 as well

 

No other correspondence will be accepted

 

Should you attempt litigation it will be vigorously defended and the failure to supply documentation under the CCA 1974 is a complete defence to any legal action and your actions will be vexatious and unlawful

 

 

I trust this out lines the situation

 

Yours,

Print name do not sign

[chipaway1]

Thank you.Your advice and expertise is refreshing and appreciated.