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Lloyds credit card cca unreadable


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Hello there

 

I'm new to this! would anyone like to comment on this...

 

Back in November of last year I sent the standard CCA request to Lloyds Credit Card (BLS Collections by then) and they stalled me with saying that I had given a debt reference number instead of an account number. I then repeated my request using an 'account' number and I eventually got a response in April of this year. They sent me a very poorly scanned document which was illegible - I know that this contravenes something in the 1983 regs so I quoted this and asked BLS to send me a copy that I could read. The bits I could read contained no prescribed terms - just about how much money I earned and general info like this.

 

BLS responded to this by passing it on to Sechiari Clark and Mitchell who have now informed me that they will be taking me to court. I have now written to SC&M informing them of the situation (that I dont have a readable cca as requested and quoting the 1983 regs) and asking them to send me something that I can read. I also phoned them and they told me that they don't keep original documents and that it was scanned.

 

I have reciepts of all post I have sent.

 

I am on a DMP with CCCS and am struggling financially.

 

I am wondering what my defense will be exactly as I have a feeling they are going to take me to court now and I am getting worried about it.

 

Cheers, Framboise

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Hello and Welcome,

 

I'll move this thread to the appropriate Forum.

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

 
 

Any advice I give is honest and in good faith.:)

If in doubt, you should seek the opinion of a Qualified Professional.

If you can, please donate to this site.

Help keep it up and active, helping people like you.

If you no longer require help, please do what you can to help others

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Hi, welcome to CAG. Never speak to [problem], they cannot be trusted!

The usual advice is to scan any documents, minus personal details, so that the experienced members can help. When was the alleged CC taken out?

So far you seem to have done everything right.........however.......

I have received an illegible CCA and have sent [problem] all the letters but they have issued court procedings :(

In the legal section there is loads of help if this does happen. Try not too worry, but I know that is a lot easier said than done.

PS keep and date all envelopes as well as everything else.

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Hi Thanks for this I will get them scanned tomorrow. Good advice with the envelopes. Will update when I get the next letter from them (or the court). Pretty sure they'll do the same as with you. Had a look at some of the legal section and I feel much more prepared for it! - this site is great!

It was taken out in 2000 by the way.

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Please Try Not To Worried. We Are Here.

 

If They Have Only What You Say They Will Struggle. Get The Thing Posted Up.

 

Lilly

Id quot circumiret, circumveniat.

 

please do not take my word for anything please do your own research All that i make comments on are done in good faith and to the best of my knowledge

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ASLO PLEASE READ THIS IN THE LEGAL FORUM

 

 

Basic Introduction to Consumer Credit litigation

 

HAVE YOU SEND A SAR TO LLOYDS. INFO IS EVERYTHING

Id quot circumiret, circumveniat.

 

please do not take my word for anything please do your own research All that i make comments on are done in good faith and to the best of my knowledge

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have a good read and sleep well

 

YOU MAY WELL BE INTERESTED IN THIS COURT CASE JUST IN CASE YOU MISS

IT

 

KIND REGARDS

 

 

APPROVED JUDGMENT

__________

APPEARANCES:

For the Claimant: MISS GARDNER

For the Defendant: MR BERKLEY QC

__________

Transcribed from tape by

J L Harpham Limited

Official Court Reporters and Tape Transcribers

55 Queen Street

Sheffield S1 2DX

BANK OF SCOTLAND -v- ROBERT MITCHELL

1st June 2009

APPROVED JUDGMENT

JUDGE LANGAN:

 

1. I have to deal with an issue as to costs which has arisen on the informal discontinuance of an action.

 

2. The action was commenced on 21st May 2008. The claimant bank had, in December 2003, issued a credit card to the defendant, and the claim was for £15,417.23, being the amount said to be due on the defendant's account. Judgment in default, for a total sum of £15,727.23, was obtained on 4th July 2008. The defendant subsequently applied to have the judgment set

aside. That application came before District Judge Jordan on 29th January this year and was successful. The recitals to the District Judge's order say this:

"And upon the defendant's proceedings on the basis of a breach of

Section 61(1)(a) of the Consumer Credit Act, namely that the claimant

failed to comply with the requirements to give copies of all the

documents relevant to the agreement at the time of signing, and upon

the defendant contending that notwithstanding Section 65 of the

Consumer Credit Act 1974, Section 127(3) of the Act preventing the

enforcement".

 

After those recitals it is ordered the court sets judgment aside, and it is ordered that there be, "A determination of the issue set out above". Various procedural directions then follow.

 

3. What has been listed for trial today is, "The determination of issue", referred to in the order which I have just recited.

 

4. The agreement made in relation to the defendant's credit card was a regulated agreement within the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Section 61(1)(a) of that Act provides:

 

"A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless a document in

the prescribed form, itself containing all the prescribed terms and

conforming to regulations under Section 60(1), is signed in the

prescribed manner, both by the debtor or hirer, and by or on behalf of

the creditor or owner".

 

Having regard to the date of the agreement made in this case, which was prior to amendments made to the Act which took effect from 5th April 2007, the result of non compliance with Section 61(1)(a) would be that the credit card agreement would be unenforceable against the defendant, see Consumer Credit Act 1974 Section 127(3).

 

5. This morning I was informed by Miss Gardner, counsel for the bank, that the bank was withdrawing its claim against the defendant. This announcement has been accepted by Mr Berkley QC, who appears for the defendant, as equivalent to the service of a notice of discontinuance under the Civil Procedure Rules Part 38.3. By the Civil Procedure Rules Part 38.6.1:

 

"Unless the court orders otherwise, a claimant who discontinues is

liable for the costs which a defendant against whom the claimant

discontinues incurred, on or before the date on which notice of

discontinuance was served on the defendant".

 

Miss Gardner contends that the court should, "Order otherwise", and make no order for costs as between the parties. Mr Berkley contends that the presumption in CPR 38.1.6 should operate, and further that the order for costs to be made in favour of his client should be an order for assessment on the indemnity basis.

 

6. The thrust of Miss Gardner's submission is that the issue directed by the District Judge, and on which the evidence has been focussed, is whether the bank supplied the defendant at the time of signing the application form for credit with documents which contained all the terms of the agreement between them. I shall elaborate a little further on this. It has been the defendant's case that he was supplied with nothing more than the application form which he signed. It has been the bank's case that in accordance with the usual practice of the bank the defendant would have been, and must have been, supplied with other documents, including a pack which will have contained all the terms and conditions of the agreement made between the parties. Miss Gardner goes on to say that the defendant has at the last moment taken a new and radically different point, namely that the document signed by the defendant did not contain all the prescribed terms of the agreement. I must again elaborate on this. It is common ground that the only document signed by the defendant was the application form. It is also common ground that the application form did not, on its face, set out the prescribed terms of the agreement between the parties. The point which is treated by Miss Gardner as a

new point is dealt with in paragraphs 22 and 23 of Mr Berkley's written argument, and it will, I think, be more economical if I simply quote those two paragraphs in full rather than attempt,in my own words, to expand on them:

 

"The key words in Section 61(1)(a) are the reference to a document

itself containing all the prescribed terms, and conforming to the

regulations under Section 61. This language is clear and specific, and

ensures that mere reference to terms contained in another document

will not suffice. The document must contain the prescribed terms, just

as the signed document referred to in Section 127(3), which might save

the day, must however contain the prescribed terms. The construction

contended for by the defendant is entirely consistent with the language

of Section 61(1), and is also supported by Professor Good in his

encyclopaedic work - see Good & Consumer Credit Law and Practice

volume 2, 2B 5.121, and see also the comments at 2B 5.247. There the

learned author draws a distinction between the language of paragraph

(a) contain and paragraph (b) embody. It is respectfully submitted that

the court should adopt the same reasoning in determining this issue in

favour of the defendant, irrespective of whether or not it finds that the

defendant was supplied with documents other than the credit

agreement itself".

 

7. In my judgment, the point with which I have just been dealing is not properly to be characterised as a new point on which the bank can present itself as being taken by surprise. I refer to four documents. First, on 3rd November 2008, when the defendant was acting as a litigant in person, in the request to have the default judgment set aside he said this:

 

"As the court is aware, in the absence of all the prescribed terms being

embodied, it will render a document unenforceable in court. These

terms must be contained within the agreement, and not in a separate

document headed 'Terms and Conditions', or words to that effect".

Secondly, on 18th February 2009, solicitors, who were by then acting for the defendant, sent to the solicitors acting for the bank a copy of what they called an expert report setting out the reasons why the agreement was in breach of Section 61(1)(a), and they went on:

 

"As you are aware it is our client's position that at the time he entered

into the agreement he was not provided with a copy of the terms and

conditions governing the agreement".

 

If one goes to the so called expert's report, one finds that it is in effect an opinion prepared by another firm of solicitors, and the opinion contains the following:

 

"Based on the information provided, it appears that the prescribed

terms and conditions were not included in the document signed by the

borrower. The agreement would appear to be in breach of the

regulations in that it does not contain within the signed agreement itself

all of the prescribed terms".

 

Thirdly, that point having been taken on behalf of the defendant, it was robustly rejected by the solicitors acting for the bank in their reply of 19th March 2009:

 

"Our client has sought counsel's opinion on this matter and her view is

that the agreement is compliant. We note that your client is arguing

that at the time of signing the agreement, the application for a credit

card, he was not provided with the actual terms and conditions which

were contained in a separate document to the application. Whilst our

client accepts that the application itself does not comply with the

requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, and only becomes

compliant by reference to terms and conditions, there are references in

the agreement to the conditions in which it states that they are provided

in the Halifax credit card application pack".

 

Fourthly, going back in time a little, on 4th March 2009, in the defendant's witness statement made for the purpose of the trial of the issue, at the very beginning of the statement, in paragraph 3, he said this:

 

"It is my position that the agreement is not enforceable by the claimant

as it has failed to comply with its obligations under Section 61 of the

Consumer Credit Act 1974 by failing to include within the document

that I signed all the prescribed terms".

 

8. The absence of further reference to the point in the evidence is hardly surprising, since the point is one of law, on which there was no controversy as to the facts.

 

9. Miss Gardner has given no reason for the withdrawal of the action. She is in no way to be criticised for the omission. She is bound to act in accordance with her instructions, and those instructions were presumably to say no more than she has in fact said. But this does not prevent me from drawing what is in my judgment the only inference which can possibly be drawn from what has happened, which is that the bank realises that if the issue were to be

contested it would either lose on the issue or be at serious risk of losing. There may be hundreds of similar cases and the bank would plainly not wish other defaulting customers to get wind of an adverse decision on the fundamental point which is embodied in the quotation from Mr Berkley's written argument, which I have already set out.

 

10. Accordingly, I conclude, without hesitation, that there is no reason for displacing the presumption as to incidence of costs which is ordinarily applicable in a case of discontinuance. The bank will pay the defendant's costs of the claim, subject only to any existing order for costs in favour of the bank not being disturbed.

 

11. Finally, I have to consider whether the costs of the defendant should be assessed on the standard or on the indemnity basis. In my judgment the assessment should be on the indemnity basis. The only realistic view of what has happened is that the bank has surrendered on a straightforward point of law, to which it has on several occasions been alerted by the defendant or his solicitors. A large commercial enterprise which proceeds with litigation in the face of warning signs of the kind which were erected here, adopts a high risk strategy. The point in question was a simple one. There was no relevant controversy as to the evidence. To choose to abandon the claim on the very day of the hearing is doing a serious disservice to the efficient administration of justice, and comes very close to constituting an abuse of process. At the very least, the bank's conduct of the litigation falls comfortably within the range of cases in which, on the modern authorities, an assessment of costs on the indemnity basis is appropriate.

__________

 

Yesterday, 10:36 #44 (permalink

 

PLEASE ENJOY ITS A GOOD READ

Id quot circumiret, circumveniat.

 

please do not take my word for anything please do your own research All that i make comments on are done in good faith and to the best of my knowledge

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Subscribing...

"To love unconditionally is the greatest gift, laughter is a close second" .To give your time to help others after being helped here is the best way to show your appreciation to your fellow CAG members.

 

Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Seek the advice of an insured qualified professional if you have any doubts. All my knowledge has been gained here, for which I'm very grateful. I'm a Journalist, not a law professional.

 

If you do PM, make sure to include a link to your thread as I don't give out advice in private ;)

BB 13 - DCAs/banks and solicitors 0.

 

I get a fresh start to get on with learning to live with severe disabilities when they could have had something if they'd been understanding...

 

<--- If you feel I've helped, please twinkle my star :)

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OK here it is at last. I have used an eraser tool to obscure my details. The rest is this poor in quality.

agreement.jpg

 

agreement2.jpg

 

I am struggling with getting this to attach - I don't think it is big enough to see. I will try another way!

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The bit on the bottom of the first page that is missing is a box with my signature and a sentence which says 'agreement regulated by the cc act 1974' and a box with a lloyds signature in it. I have also erased a hand written account number on the top of the agreement.

 

The second page is about as unreadable as it has come out on here.

 

No reference that the first page is related to the second either, I dont think

 

Framboise

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had nothing from SC&M. Maybe they will find a clearer copy. I was told they don't have the original by a young man in 'Consumer Debt Recovery' some time ago.

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SAR to get the transcript and notes of that phonecall, I presume it was over the phone?

"To love unconditionally is the greatest gift, laughter is a close second" .To give your time to help others after being helped here is the best way to show your appreciation to your fellow CAG members.

 

Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Seek the advice of an insured qualified professional if you have any doubts. All my knowledge has been gained here, for which I'm very grateful. I'm a Journalist, not a law professional.

 

If you do PM, make sure to include a link to your thread as I don't give out advice in private ;)

BB 13 - DCAs/banks and solicitors 0.

 

I get a fresh start to get on with learning to live with severe disabilities when they could have had something if they'd been understanding...

 

<--- If you feel I've helped, please twinkle my star :)

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HAVE YOU BLANK OUT THE SIG

 

Well Not Good For Them, Well We Will Wait For Sar

 

As It Stands Not Good For Them

Id quot circumiret, circumveniat.

 

please do not take my word for anything please do your own research All that i make comments on are done in good faith and to the best of my knowledge

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may i asked is there anything that links the two docs

Id quot circumiret, circumveniat.

 

please do not take my word for anything please do your own research All that i make comments on are done in good faith and to the best of my knowledge

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There is no bar code or page numbers or any reference to 'reverse' or 'page 2' or anything else referred to

 

Interestingly I did actually speak to SC&M on the phone to tell them that my copy of this document was illegible - they asked me to send it back to them. I fear they will create a conjectured reconstruction for court. I'm keeping it!!

 

Framboise

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Very wise. You never know what a desperate DCA/solicitors might be tempted to do, allegedly :|

"To love unconditionally is the greatest gift, laughter is a close second" .To give your time to help others after being helped here is the best way to show your appreciation to your fellow CAG members.

 

Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Seek the advice of an insured qualified professional if you have any doubts. All my knowledge has been gained here, for which I'm very grateful. I'm a Journalist, not a law professional.

 

If you do PM, make sure to include a link to your thread as I don't give out advice in private ;)

BB 13 - DCAs/banks and solicitors 0.

 

I get a fresh start to get on with learning to live with severe disabilities when they could have had something if they'd been understanding...

 

<--- If you feel I've helped, please twinkle my star :)

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Good luck, framboise, you're doing all the right things.

The possibilty of court papers is scary, I know, but they may just be bluffing and even if they do arrive, it's amazing how much you learn as you go along and there's tons of help and support.:D

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