Jump to content

You can now change your notification sounds by going to this link https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/index.php?/&app=soundboard&module=soundboard&controller=managesounds

 

You can find a library of free notification sounds in several places on the Internet. Here's one which has a very large selection https://notificationsounds.com/notification-sounds

 

 

BankFodder BankFodder

 

BankFodder BankFodder


gezwee

Catalogues - exempt from Companies act S.222(5)(b) **CASE WON**

style="text-align:center;"> Please note that this topic has not had any new posts for the last 3902 days.

If you are trying to post a different story then you should start your own new thread. Posting on this thread is likely to mean that you won't get the help and advice that you need.

If you are trying to post information which is relevant to the story in this thread then please flag it up to the site team and they will allow you to post.

Thank you

Recommended Posts

Is there anybody out there who can shed some light on a recent call I had from the 'legal' dept of a home shopping catalogue?

 

Apparently only keep records for 2 years in line with principle 5 of data protection act.

 

Stated they were exempt from 6 year record keeping within companies act S.222(5)(b) due to Section 221(3)©

 

............except in the case of goods sold by way of ordinary retail trade, statements of all goods sold and purchased, showing the goods and the buyers and sellers in sufficient detail to enable all these to be identified.

 

Any pointers or guidance appreciated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Gezwee...are you trying to reclaim charges ? Or are they collecting on a debt ?


PLEASE NOTE - I am not a legal expert, what is stated is my own opinion and from what I have learnt from this forum and my own experiences.

 

DEBT COLLECTION LETTER/SAR/AGREEMENT TEMPLATES ARE HERE - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?65-legislation

 

IF WE HAVE BEEN HELPFUL -PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE GIVE A DONATION TO HELP US TO CONTINUE HELPING YOU

 

I AM HAPPY TO RECEIVE PM's AND I WILL RESPOND IF I FEEL I CAN ASSIST BUT WHEN YOU DO CAN YOU PLEASE PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD ON WHICH YOU WOULD LIKE ME TO COMMENT - THANK YOU

 

IMPORTANT - If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.

Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Private message facilities are offered for users to communicate issues that are/or could be seen to be inappropriate for posting on the main forum.Site rules explain this in more detail.

If you are approached by private message with a view to asking you to visit another website,please inform the site team via the report icon.

 

Forum rules - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/forum-rules-please-read/9-forum-rules-please-read.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi 42man,

 

Neither really......... have an outstanding issue going back 3 years trying to get a refund on interest bearing terms incorrectly applied, think one of the muppets in the ordering dept hit the wrong function key and slapped £200.00 of frontloaded interest on a purchase. Since had a mishap moving house and lost all docs.

Now they are hiding behind principle 5 and state they do not hold any account details or records more than 24 months.

 

Going to file N1 anyway to test the water, no details,no records,no agreement so they can whistle for the £600.00 balance thats sat there for the last 2 years. What I am really looking for is a method of applying for directions at N1 stage to force the issue - either they come to an amicable resolve with me or have to comply with dsar to the fullest extent that legislation allows. I'd prefer to see an admission to DJ that they destroy all account holders records after 2 years but thats never going to happen......... floodgates opening comes to mind.

 

Odd that if they think they are in such a strong position they have never defaulted, attempted collection or other whilst this has been in dispute.

 

Bit annoyed with myself really for not applying dsar sooner.

 

Thanks for looking in

 

Gezwee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Gezwee - looking in as asked.

 

If you had/have an interest-bearing a/c with them, surely they are duty-bound to hold data for 6 years. If you have another conversation with their "Legal Team", ask them to confirm their opinion in writing so you can check out the relevant legislation. ;)

 

I think the Reg'ns they quoted to you have nothing to do with this.

 

But before you steam into court with a Form N1, you should see that you have done what you can to resolve any issues before litigating.

 

I would tackle this in one of two ways:-

 

1. SAR them to get a/c info so you can identify the dodgy a/c entry and get them to correct it. If they cannot provide this.......

 

2. ....... send a CCA request for the a/c credit agreement and see if they can provide it.

 

If they fail to sort it out to your satisfaction, leave them to take court action. I doubt they will but they may try and issue a Default.

 

Are there any penalty charges on the a/c for late payments, etc. If so you can reclaim these in full. The SAR response should provide this data.


We could do with some help from you

                                                                PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

                                            Have we helped you ...?  Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Please give something if you can. We all give our time free of charge but the site has bills to pay.

 

Thanks !:-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Slick

 

Thanks for dropping by.

 

SAR in January this year, have been strung along for an age trying to get them to comply. Finally sent LBA in May and the response I got was 2 years of records with a cover letter advising no other information held as Principle 5 of the DPA meant they had to destroy older records??

 

Have plenty of penalty/default charges on there but no mention of recovery action etc.

 

My thoughts are that they have either destroyed my records intentionally or somebody somewhere has dumped a load of data.

 

Would love to find out the truth of the matter.

 

Gez

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In which case, why not complain to the ICO.

 

I find the catalogue's response hard to believe.

 

Maybe someone else can share opinion on this........:)


We could do with some help from you

                                                                PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

                                            Have we helped you ...?  Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Please give something if you can. We all give our time free of charge but the site has bills to pay.

 

Thanks !:-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Slick

 

Tried the ICO....... apparently my concern has been lodged but I'm a long way down their list at the mo.

 

Tried to get written confirmation of the act they deem to take precedence in this matter, Company, limitations, Data protection, money laundering...... no response!

 

Found this on another thread and was wondering if its applicable to a mail order catalogue account. Is a running credit agreement, interest bearing or not, covered by same?

 

 

 

According to sections 221 and 222 of the Companies Act 1985, a public company is required to maintain records for a period of six years (section 222(5)(b)). As a loan agreement is active until the agreement is terminated, I would suggest that all the payment records (and other documents making up the file - including the agreement/application etc) would be "live" until the account is paid, or terminated - thus, the full file should be retained for at least six years after the termination.

 

This interpretation is repeated by Inland Revenue legislation that requires prime documents to be retained for a period of six years - AFTER THE END OF THE RELEVANT ACCOUNTING PERIOD. That would mean some files need to be retained for up to seven years. The relevant legislation is found in Schedule 18 of the Finance Act 1998 (paragraph 21) - of particular significance is sub-paragraph (6).

Finally, key documents/application forms etc must be kept until 5 years after that business relationship has ended. This is a requirement of The Money Laundering Regulations 1993, 2003 and 2007.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you confirm which Catalogue you're d/w here.

 

Is any int't charged on the a/c, or is it a weekly/monthly payment type but with no int't added.

 

If their "Legal" bods contact you again, tell them you've made a Formal Complaint to the ICO and their ref. no. for this complaint is xxxxx. Ask them to refer to the ICO for further info.

 

Remind them that, because the a/c is clearly In Dispute, they must stop collection activity until either the ICO has investigated OR they provide you with the data you require for AT LEAST the last 6 years.

 

Until then, any collection activity, threats about legal proceedings, Default Notices, etc will be a clear breach of the OFT Debt Collection Guidelines and will be reported immediately to the FOS for Formal Investigation.


We could do with some help from you

                                                                PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

                                            Have we helped you ...?  Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Please give something if you can. We all give our time free of charge but the site has bills to pay.

 

Thanks !:-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its Grattan, part of the Freemans group.

 

Normally weekly/monthly interest free terms except in the instance of 100/150 week terms where interested is applied frontloaded.

 

This is where my concern lies, is a line of credit whether interest bearing or not treated the same as a c/c or loan agreement and therefore covered by all the other acts mentioned in previous posts?

 

My thoughts are there can be no exclusion to the companys act for them as it seems the section they are relying on is intended for single payment store/shop purchases where no agreements are entered into with the consumer beyond the point of sale.

 

I'm certain that they are ducking out of sending all statements to prevent me claiming against them for incorrect interest application. As this has dragged on for so long now I really just want to put the issue to bed and get it cleared off my credit file.

 

Having said that I would like to get an admission out of them whether in writing to me or in front of a DJ that they are either hiding behind the wrong act or have indeed purged all data records in excess of 2 years of age.

 

My thoughts are that as long as I can get the ICO to confirm the act precedent in this matter I can press them again for a response, if that then fails proceed to N1 application and force either an out of court or an admission in defence.

 

Bit long winded for a few hundred quid but guess thats what they are hoping for and I'll get bored of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Gezwee,

 

This is a bit out of my comfort zone. However, I think they're talking rubbish when quoting the Companies Act as they have done above.

 

Have you sent them a CCA request on this a/c.

 

If they've failed to properly d/w your LBA for DPA non-compliance, proceed with court action for the missing data.

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/48-bank-templates/130-data-protection-act-non-compliance-particulars-of-claim-

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/48-bank-templates/131-draft-order-for-directions-including-directions-for-disclosure-


We could do with some help from you

                                                                PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

                                            Have we helped you ...?  Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Please give something if you can. We all give our time free of charge but the site has bills to pay.

 

Thanks !:-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am a self employed company , and i have to keep my books for 6 years,so i would imagine that the mail order company's would have to as well !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Slick

 

I'll probably give the ICO a few more weeks to respond in full, perhaps they can send in one of their attack dogs and do the job for me......lol

 

Its a case of being stuck between a rock and a hard place, if i press for admission via N1 would I also be making admittance of account held? If I c**k it up does it leave me open to a counter later on?

 

CCA request also in January remains unresponded to, tbh if they had one (which i know they don't - not sure they even knew what one was back in the day I opened the account) they should have sent copy within SAR response....... all data held would I'd have thought included CCA. Always assumed CCA were issued separately as it requires a far quicker response and puts them on the back foot whilst SAR clock is ticking.

 

I'll let you know how it goes, as soon as I'm certain of my position re legislation I'll throw as much mud at them as possible and see what sticks.

 

Thanks

 

Gez

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The links which I put above re court claim for non-compliance are just a means of forcing them to comply with your SAR. They would be forced to supply the a/c data you require, going back as far as they have it. This will enable you to reclaim penalty charges on the a/c.

 

This wouldn't compromise your position about the (un)enforceability of the a/c - either they have a credit agreement for you, or they don't. :)


We could do with some help from you

                                                                PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

                                            Have we helped you ...?  Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Please give something if you can. We all give our time free of charge but the site has bills to pay.

 

Thanks !:-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right, me thinks I may have a go...... nothing ventured as they say.

 

Payday next Wednesday so guess that'll be start of process. Have a week to have another good read on here and make sure I get it right first time and prepare for any dodgy looking defence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Me again...... used the particulars on this thread 'Havinastella V Lloyds TSB' last month. Jiggled it about to suit and came up with costs of £210.00

 

No defence as yet, looks like I'll be going for a default judgement soon (hopefully)

 

My next question is - whats a 'reasonable' period before I SAR again? If they have no intention of defending I would like to get all my money back plus something for my troubles. Can a LIP be seen to be acting unreasonably by repeatedly making DSAR's and then looking to the courts when a full response is not receipted?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you just confirm, is the current court case regarding SAR non-compliance.


We could do with some help from you

                                                                PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

                                            Have we helped you ...?  Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Please give something if you can. We all give our time free of charge but the site has bills to pay.

 

Thanks !:-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Slick

 

It is indeed...... any ideas?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Grattan fail to respond to your court claim, you'll ask the court to order that they provide the SAR response to which you're entitled.

 

So I don't see that you'd need to send another SAR.


We could do with some help from you

                                                                PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

                                            Have we helped you ...?  Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Please give something if you can. We all give our time free of charge but the site has bills to pay.

 

Thanks !:-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Slick

 

Was toying with the idea of going straight in and requesting default judgement for costs. I know its not usual for this track but in reality the costs to me are minimal to date and I could use it to recover some of the excess interest and charges on the account if the DJ on the day agrees.

 

If they had issued some sort of defence I think I'd carry on playing the game but without any response I have a feeling that they are happy waiting for the courts decision. This would be no different than a consumer being stung by a default judgement by a creditor relying on ignorance.

 

In particulars I had requested response to several questions regarding their compliancy statement, included sections on Money laundering, companies, limitations acts etc. Can see why they havent responded but I would have expected something if only falling back on the earlier principle 5 statement and relying on a not so clued up DJ.

 

Just struck me that you can make multiple requests for DSAR after a reasonable period of time (have to look that up think its after 30 days?), if so then every time they fail to comply surely it would be lawful to issue proceedings treating each request as a separate failure.

Edited by gezwee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Gezwee,

 

I know its not usual for this track but in reality the costs to me are minimal to date and I could use it to recover some of the excess interest and charges on the account if the DJ on the day agrees.

The hearing that deals with SAR non-compliance will deal ONLY with that matter.

 

Reclaiming charges and interest will be d/w at a separate hearing entirely. In any event, the Cat Co may refund these with the need for a further hearing, inless you are going for Contractual Int't.


We could do with some help from you

                                                                PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

                                            Have we helped you ...?  Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Please give something if you can. We all give our time free of charge but the site has bills to pay.

 

Thanks !:-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry Slick, may have confused things with the way I worded it.

 

What I meant was I want to use a costs order to recover some of the costs I've been encumbered with whilst trying to sort this out, post, telephone, litigation, even my time. By including my time in calculations (which in reality does not have a rateable value) I would be making some headway into recovering the value of the earlier frontloaded interest that was lumped onto my account.

 

If it means seeking a costs order for non compliance as a way of recovering at least a portion of this then it is a means to an end. As far as I can see its lawful if not an entirely accurate presentation.

 

Not sure if my view is skewed but if I can get a judgement from the presiding DJ to include costs outlined in my particulars it'll be in the region of £210.00.

 

If on the other hand the catalogue finally comply and it is evidenced that they have applied interest without agreement then I'll go down the reclaim route along with the usual default/admin charges reclaim.

 

Hope all that made sense, basically going for the soft option first of non compliance and hoping for a costs order in my favour. Followed up later with a reclaim of charges and interest. My only other question was could I use the former to make repeated claims (and hopefully costs) as a means of lawful recovery?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi and thanks for clarifying.

 

Any claim for costs, which includes your time as a LiP @ £9.25 per hour, should be based upon your log of time spent in researching and preparing your case. Ideally, this would be backed up by a schedule or spreadsheet showing date and time spent on the case. This gives the judge a basis on which to consider your claim for costs.

 

As regards making repeated SAR's followed by court proceedings, this would surely be sussed quickly and would be frowned upon by the courts. You could even be landed with costs against you which would be costed at far more than £9.25 per hour !! :eek:


We could do with some help from you

                                                                PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

                                            Have we helped you ...?  Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Please give something if you can. We all give our time free of charge but the site has bills to pay.

 

Thanks !:-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh bugger....... thats the bit I didnt want to hear, spose even a DJ knows when someones taking the P%$$ :D

 

Think maybe I'll cut my losses at the £210.00 for the short term and see if they press to litigation as a claimant at a later date.

 

That may present another problem for them later on I guess, if they have not and will not comply with DSAR now I assume it shouldnt be too hard to have any future claims from them struck out?

 

Lot of work for a few quid but they've messed me around for so long now I'm in no mood to drop the issue with them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure who's confusing who now :confused:

 

So, are you going ahead with this in court re their SAR non compliance.

 

You can still claim your costs, even if you haven't kept a log so far. A judge can always downsize your claim if (s)he thinks you've gone a bit overboard.

 

:)


We could do with some help from you

                                                                PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

                                            Have we helped you ...?  Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Please give something if you can. We all give our time free of charge but the site has bills to pay.

 

Thanks !:-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sure I knew what I meant when I was posting that last one :D

 

Yep, going ahead with claim for costs for SAR non compliance.

 

'If' judgement is made in my favour to full value of costs to date it equates to £210.00. My assumption is that if a costs order is made I won't actually see the money, this would be used by Grattan to reduce the outstanding balance of the account (unless I have this bit wrong).

 

This in itself would leave an account balance of circa £400.00, made up of £200.00 incorrectly applied interest and roughly £96.00 in default fees.

 

The default fees I can recover pretty easily judging by their lack of defence to litigation. Its the interest portion that I don't see how I reclaim without a headache. Do I reclaim the charges leaving £300.00 balance and press them to write off the balance.......?

 

Or........ do I make a separate claim now for the interest safe in the knowledge that they have no supporting documentation?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...