Judgement received today for nearly £30.000, dont recall any claim form

[maddiemay]

As above a judgement was received today by my husband for a business loan, I know there is no point now in asking for a CCA,my concern is as the judgement is for so much and a business debt, it has to be paid forthwith.

I have not seen any claim form for this, so did not have the chance to do what I have been doing with all his other creditors and offering a small amount on the claim form, most of which have been accepted except for one who refused £50pm so the judge set it at £2pm, hopefully that'll teach them. I try to learn as much as I can from CAG so I dont need to bother everyone, but believe me every day brings a new threat of some sort. Would I be correct in thinking we/I can pay to have the order varied,as long as it is done within 14 days ? we may qualify for reduced fee's as I have been signed off by DWP, and I will look into that shortly. Husband kind of leaves it to me to sort out, which is causing a massive strain on me and huge resentment as I played no part in the running of his business but am left with the permenant risk of losing my home due to the many charging orders already on it, placed by his creditors. I suffer from depression, anxiety already and all this is not doing me any good at all, seriously thinking of just leaving him to it and taking our son.

Thanks for any advice

[fdpm]

Can' t help as not experience enough but sending lots of supportive thoughts...

[baileyboy]

Just a thought, was the business a limited company?

[maddiemay]

No, sole trader, Lloyds business manager falling over himself to give overdrafts and loans when business was doing well, usual story ...

Husband has several fairly recent judgements, some to be paid forthwith, some monthly payments set too high, to request the judgements to be varied would result in a lot of court fee's, any suggestions of how to get around this, we will pay them, particularly as some have been charged to our home,but if they could all be set at a small monthly amount, we may just be able to get ourselves out of this mess eventually. At the moment husband is not paying any of them, as far as I know:rolleyes: burying his head springs to mind

I have looked into help with the court fee's but its me that is ill and receives DLA etc, but the debts are his. We do get tax credits, but Im sure we didn't qualify for help with the fee's, when I had a look.

Any help would be great.

Thanks

[Docman]

With £30,000 on this CCJ and others, all from buisness, have you taken any legal advice about other options available such as an IVA or personal bankruptcy?

[I've got no money]

Initially at least you treat it as any other debt - although as a business debt it may be outside the CCA anyway

 

You need to contact the court and get a copy of the claim form - presumably you now know the creditor is - does your OH think that he owes them the money.

 

You may need to think about applying to set the judgment aside. At this stage tho' the first stage is does your OH owe it?

 

Have you got any assets - is, as Docman suggests, an IVA or Bankruptcy an option

[diddydicky]

Initially at least you treat it as any other debt - although as a business debt it may be outside the CCA anyway

 

You need to contact the court and get a copy of the claim form - presumably you now know the creditor is - does your OH think that he owes them the money.

 

You may need to think about applying to set the judgment aside. At this stage tho' the first stage is does your OH owe it?

 

Have you got any assets - is, as Docman suggests, an IVA or Bankruptcy an option

 

is it also outside cca by value??

[I've got no money]

is it also outside cca by value??

 

The 25k limit was not lifted for business debts - that's why I say it may be outside the CCA. We'd need to see the claim form.

 

See S16B CCA

[Docman]

Thanks IGNM, that's why I was asking whether the OP had considered bankruptcy. It's not a course I would normally suggest but it might be an option.

 

Whilst bankruptcy does involve the sale of all assets, usually the only one of concern if the business has ended is the family home. If only one spouse is declared bankrupt, but the house is in joint names, the Trustee in Bankruptcy may be inclined to 'sell' the bankrupt's share to the other spouse. The result is that the family remain in their home, the trustee gets his fees (there's a surprise!) and the banks usually loose out. It's not straight forward and depends on a number of factors. Ufortunaely, it's difficult to suggest a way forward on the present information.

[diddydicky]

well as a tactic how what effect would filing for divorce and claiming the family home have on the ability of the bank to get its mits on the house if their are children involved?

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Maddiemay!

 

As above a judgement was received today by my husband for a business loan, I know there is no point now in asking for a CCA,my concern is as the judgement is for so much and a business debt, it has to be paid forthwith.

Can you please advise a little more about the circumstances of the £30k Business Loan?

 

For example, was it something effectively forced onto your husband, such as the bank wanting to turn an Overdraft into a Loan?

 

The figure of £30k is also suspicious, because that's a figure that crops up again and again, especially with Sole Traders and Small Partnerships!

 

Many banks pushed for that sum, because they knew full well it was above the original £25k threshold for Regulation by The Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Another little reason is because banks can Securitise Loans very easily, so they started pushing Loans so they could convert Overdrafts into a nice big pile of number-money via their SPV and the Bond Holders their SPV sold off the Loan to in smaller chunks. They prefer such Loans not to be Regulated when playing the Securitisation game to fuel the banks own Money Market gambling habits (the thing that landed us all in this mess, and why they needed £500+ billion to bail them out once they got their chubby fingers burnt).

 

Was the Loan taken out in around 2003-2005? Only a guess, but that was around the time when the banks were busy shafting smaller businesses at an alarming rate. Some banks saw increases in this activity of between 400-450% per annum.

 

The point about The Consumer Credit Act 1974, and £30k Loans and your Husband, is all down to the awkward fact (for the banks) that Sole Traders and Small Partnerships are classed as Consumers by the Act, so if the Loan was £25k or below, it would have to have been Regulated! Whereas above £30k, they could escape Regulation (that has now changed).

 

OK, this may get interesting, depending on how the £30k was received by your Husband. If, for example, the Loan was forced on him to convert an Overdraft into a Loan, then check how the numbers worked out.

 

For example, if he had a £25k Overdraft on the limit, and was desperate for an extra £5k they refused to give him by way of an Overdraft extension, but instead offered him a £30k Loan on condition that his Overdraft was cut at the same time from £25k to Zero...then it may be possible to argue that the £30k Loan was a Multiple Agreement, as outlined in s18 of the Act.

 

Say, £25k OD on the limit, they inject £30k on condition the OD is wiped at the same time, then that means £25k Restricted Use Credit, used to wipe the Overdraft, and £5k your Husband got left to play with as a +£5k Balance in the Account...that being £5k Unrestricted Use Credit.

 

If so, then what he actually got was a Multiple Agreement, two Loans, not one, and at least one should've been Regulated. Both in this example, a £5k Loan and a £25k Loan, both below the Threshold for Regulation...

 

...except the bank has no Regulated Agreement to show for it!

 

OK, this may not help, but do check the background, because any Loans over £25k sold to Sole Traders and Small Partnerships were probably over £25k for a very good reason.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[Docman]

BRW

 

Are you suggesting the poor old banks actually tried to arrange matters so that they could get around the problem of the law contained in the Consumr Credit Act and thereby increase their profits and enlarge their bonuses at the expense of long suffering customers, drving said customers into bankruptcy? Surely British banks wouldn't do that, would they?Tut,tut!!

[rob20042513]

Hello brw,

 

What happened to your nastybank defence there was no update???

 

sorry to intrude on this thread just really curious

 

thanks

[B3rty]

Do you know or trust anyone that you could use to put a charging order on your house to protect the equity?

[diddydicky]

too late- it would be seen for what it is

[Guest wino]

Do you know or trust anyone that you could use to put a charging order on your house to protect the equity?

 

Maddiemay states in her first post that there are already 'many' charging orders on the house.

[maddiemay]

Ok, Thanks everyone, here goes

There is little or no equity in the house and interest only mort.

Charges on the property are for the following amounts..£4,500,£1,000,£3,000.. soon to be £45,000 (VAT/TAX)

It is in joint names.

Debts are in hubby's name only as was the business acc.

Business loan, paid off 2 previous loans, one for £3,000 and one for £5,000 and an overdraft of £10,000 which was £2,000 over so £12,00 in fact, the rest I suppose must have been interest, I think there was about £1,000 left in the account from the loan.

1 child aged 14 and me signed off with anxiety, depression and an unrelated phobia, currently receiving DLA and undergoing CBT.

I filed for divorce about 6 weeks ago for unreasonable behavoiur (debts etc), its probably too late now as the judgement has already been entered and most likely shortly to be followed by an application for a C/O, surely the more C/O's the least likely an order for sale would be made as no-one would get anything or is that wishful thinking ? Anything we had has been sold over the last year to survive, so no assets to speak of. I really do appreciate your advice and am constantly learning.

Thanks again.

PS I'm moving to the other post now re: my slipped through the net CL Finance defence and what to do next.

[pedross]

Hi maddiemay

 

If the charges are all for your husbands debts then you need to take advice on bankruptcy. However, to determine if there is equty or not you have to consider the forced sale value of the property in the current market and deduct the value of your mortgage only and any secured loans excluding the charges.

 

If there is definately no equity in the property then the OR would not be interested in trying to sell it because there is no benefit to the creditors.

 

I am not aware of the CL problem but if it is your husbamds then it would also be resolved.

 

I have posted on other threads about bankruptcy and I always say that I consider it is a last resort. However, the information you have provided suggests otherwise in your ciircumstances and you will find a lot of advice on the subject. But think carefully if you have any other options first because as soon as you comunicate with people who have done it they will tell you how great it is and without doubt it is easy in the current climate because there are so many going down that route it is all fast tracked.

 

I do not think that divorce will change anything based on what I have read, it really is not your debt and they cannot touch your assets.

 

I hope this helps you, I am sure that you can resolve this if you keep up your current attitude.

 

Pedross

[Docman]

MM,

 

As Pedross says, you should seriously take advice about your husband considering bankruptcy. I disagree about the sale of the house though.

 

The Official Receiver or trustee in Bankruptcy has a legal obligation to sell the bankrupt's property. In times like now, the trustee just hangs onto the property until the market picks up, perhaps several years from now. This means that in 5 or 6 years, just when you think you are OK, the trustee pops up again and sells the house from under you.

 

A far better option if your OH ends up in bankruptcy is for you to buy your OH's share of the net equity from the trustee now, not in several years time. You will need to convince the mortgage company to continue the mortgage but frankly the last thing they want at the moment is a forced sale.

 

Have a good talk with your OH and seek professional advice about the option of bankruptcy.

[diddydicky]

MM,

 

As Pedross says, you should seriously take advice about your husband considering bankruptcy. I disagree about the sale of the house though.

 

The Official Receiver or trustee in Bankruptcy has a legal obligation to sell the bankrupt's property. In times like now, the trustee just hangs onto the property until the market picks up, perhaps several years from now. This means that in 5 or 6 years, just when you think you are OK, the trustee pops up again and sells the house from under you.

 

A far better option if your OH ends up in bankruptcy is for you to buy your OH's share of the net equity from the trustee now, not in several years time. You will need to convince the mortgage company to continue the mortgage but frankly the last thing they want at the moment is a forced sale.

 

Have a good talk with your OH and seek professional advice about the option of bankruptcy.

 

good advice, i have read extensively on some subjects and am sure i have read that in cases where there is negative equity and children or old people in the home that the judge has ruled that the family can stay in the home whilst it remains in negative equity - in which case would buy you time

[photoman]

Ok, Thanks everyone, here goes

There is little or no equity in the house and interest only mort.

Charges on the property are for the following amounts..£4,500,£1,000,£3,000.. soon to be £45,000 (VAT/TAX)

It is in joint names.

Debts are in hubby's name only as was the business acc.

Business loan, paid off 2 previous loans, one for £3,000 and one for £5,000 and an overdraft of £10,000 which was £2,000 over so £12,00 in fact, the rest I suppose must have been interest, I think there was about £1,000 left in the account from the loan.

1 child aged 14 and me signed off with anxiety, depression and an unrelated phobia, currently receiving DLA and undergoing CBT.

I filed for divorce about 6 weeks ago for unreasonable behavoiur (debts etc), its probably too late now as the judgement has already been entered and most likely shortly to be followed by an application for a C/O, surely the more C/O's the least likely an order for sale would be made as no-one would get anything or is that wishful thinking ? Anything we had has been sold over the last year to survive, so no assets to speak of. I really do appreciate your advice and am constantly learning.

Thanks again.

PS I'm moving to the other post now re: my slipped through the net CL Finance defence and what to do next.

 

 

See Banker_rhymes _with earlier post on this.

 

If as you say, after the loan had paid off various loans and overdrafts, there was about £1000 left in the account, (which was available to use however hubby wished), then this would have made the loan a "multiple" agreement.

 

As such, this means that the agreement may very well have been improperly laid out on the paperwork, so that it would not have complied with the CCA74, and so much so that it would have been entirely unenforceable.

 

Basically, if it is the case; Then they could not have enforced the agreement, they should not have applied to have it enforced, and also a judge should not have agreed to it.

 

I don't however know what the situation would now be, as a judgment has been issued.

I guess that perhaps you may be able to get the judgement reversed, and if so, this would then mean that the loan is unenforceable.... in it's entirety, ....and no further payments due !!

 

Have a look here:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/171037-multiple-agreements-falling-within.html

 

 

regards

 

PM

[photoman]

have read of this too:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/180864-finding-faulty-cca-agreements.html

[pedross]

MM,

 

The Official Receiver or trustee in Bankruptcy has a legal obligation to sell the bankrupt's property. In times like now, the trustee just hangs onto the property until the market picks up, perhaps several years from now. This means that in 5 or 6 years, just when you think you are OK, the trustee pops up again and sells the house from under you.

 

Have a good talk with your OH and seek professional advice about the option of bankruptcy.

 

A good point and needs loking into but I do believe that the OR actually has a legal obligation to realise the bankrupts assets. You need to determine if the OR considers a property with no equity a reasonable asset of your husband. I suspect not.

[Docman]

Actually, the time for a spouse to buy is when the home is in negative equity. The trustee has to secure the best price. So if the value of the asset is a negative one, any positive offer is better for the bankrupt's estate. If the trustee rejects a positive offer, he has to put up a case for not selling immediately but hanging on for several more years until the market picks up.

[Josie8]

Obtain 3 valuations 8 if they show that there is £1000 or less equity left in the house as your share then you should transfer your interest before you go bankrupt for payment of £1. The OR would only be concerned with transaction if it was at undervalue - the valuations would address their concern in this.