Arc - Egg

[Papa Lazarouis]

Hi All,

Another sleepless night .

I ran up numerous debts 5 years ago after moving house. My biggest outstanding debt is with Egg and is around the £12000 mark owed to them via an Egg credit card.

Having been to the CCCS in 2004 I have paid Egg via Moorcroft for numerous years in monthly payments -which currently stand at £35/month.

A couple of months ago Moorcroft wrote to me stating that they were no longer held the account and I then began sending my monthly payment to Egg. Egg subsequently sent a monthly email confirming that they had received the payment. This month I sent my payment as normal, however I have not received an email. Yesterday my son rang me (who lives with my ex wife) saying that ARC had called and left a contact number and reference number, I rang ARC who demanded the usual contact numbers etc but would not identify who they were acting for, hence I told them I would not communicate with them over the phone. A quick search on here links ARC to EGG, and doesn't make pleasant reading.

Although I successfully managed to clear a debt to Westcott I am unsure of the whole process and from where to start.

My ex wife will invariably pass on all my contact details to ARC when they ring their house again.

Although this site is fantastic I get overwhelmed by the sheer volume of posts and different links, so apologies for my ignorance but how exactly do I start with these money chasers?

Do I fob them off saying I'll only deal directly with Egg? Do I ask Egg for a copy of my credit agreement? If they give me it do I just keep sending the monthly payment?

Sorry for the long windedness, but I'm knackered from a lack of sleep and the thought of the whole Westcott business starting again.

Regards + thanks in advance

PL

[PGH7447]

Send a cca request to egg, before ARC get involved, see what they send back, if arc get in touch state that you are in communication with egg re the agreement request and that until this is satisfied they can take a running jump, also I would stop the payments if you are not getting confirmation that they are being deducted from the balance

[Papa Lazarouis]

Thanks.

Is there a direct link to the most upto date template for CCA requests?

The one I found is dated 2006, is this the one people are still using?

Regards

PL

[Papa Lazarouis]

Thanks I've sent a CCA request letter off to Egg and a secondary letter to ARC who have written requesting that I make a substantial payment within 10days..

I'll update when I receive a reply.

Regards

PL

[Papa Lazarouis]

Hi All

EGG have today sent a letter saying that " I am unable to carry out your request because the address in the request doesn't match with what we hold on our systems.

Could you please confirm your address with valid documents by replying to this letter, once we have received the response we will be pleased to proceed with your request."

 

 

Do I need to send documents to them? Are they just stalling for time?

Does this request allow them to miss the time scales set out within the CCA request?

 

Regards

PL

[PGH7447]

have they sent statements etc to you current address if yes tell them that they have previously responded to your current address

[Papa Lazarouis]

Egg themselves haven't but Moorcroft who were acting on their behalf have, and their correspondence clearly states "ref: EGG Banking PLC" and their client refence number is the old EGG card number.

On a seperate note I think I should ask EGG if the last 3 months cheques I have sent directly to them have been taken off the outsatnding balance (they have been cashed) and now that ARC appear to be acting on their behalf should I send next months payment to EGG, ARC or wait until I get an answer regarding my Credit Agreement request?

 

Regards

PL

[Papa Lazarouis]

Hi folks how does this sound?

 

Dear Sirs

I am writing to you in response to your letter dated 23rd July 2009.

Please find attached a copy of a letter sent to me from Moorcroft Debt Recovery Ltd.

This letter clearly shows my address and that Moorcroft were acting on behalf of EGG Banking Plc. My EGG account number is clearly displayed and they state that they have been dealing with the account.

I now expect my Credit Agreement request to be processed with immediate effect.

 

On two separate matters:

I have been sending my monthly payment to EGG following the attached letter that I received from Moorcroft, and EGG have been cashing these cheques. Could you please confirm that such monies have been accredited against the outstanding account balance.

I have also received demands for payment from a company called ARC who claim to be acting on your behalf. Could you also confirm if EGG have appointed ARC to collect monies for this account on your behalf, or if EGG have sold the account on to ARC.

I am unsure as to where my monthly payments should be sent and I wish to ensure that said payments are actually being credited to the reduction in outstanding balance.

Until I receive this information from EGG I will delay sending said payment

Yours sincerely

Edited August 1, 2009 by Papa Lazarouis
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[Papa Lazarouis]

Update:

Just received a letter forwarded to me today from Trevor Munn Solicitors on the instructions of their client ARC who are acting on the behalf of EGG.Paperwork will be prepared for the issue of a claim against me for recovery of the Egg debt.

Says they will procedd with the claim unless they receive a firm commitment to clear the debt or a substantial payment.

I may also be liable for court costs of £290.

It says if the debt remains unpaid EGG will seek to obtain a judgement against me, registering it with credit refereence agencies, and it will remain registered for 6 yearrs even if the judgement ammount is paid in full.

To avoid this action send a payment today (in bold and underlined) to ARC.

 

Now I've already wrote to ARC and told them I'm sending them nothing until EGG respond to the CCA request and I've asked EGG who they want my monthly payment sent to.

 

Should I just ignore this letter (their 10day deadline passed 7 days ago - I have given ARC a new address they obviously can't read) and are these Sols just a part of ARC?

 

Any advice on what to write back would help me immensely.

Thanks in anticipation

PL

[egg-sterminator]

very hard for anyone to help you without seeing a copy of your cca . The age of your cca seems to fit with others on here that seem to be unenforcable . BE AWARE THEY DONT PLAY FAIR initial any letters you send DONT SIGN check out PTs thread "egg cards and what i think is wrong with them " ther is a few of us on there . When you discover with the help of others just what your rights are you will see it is them who need fear, not you .

[Papa Lazarouis]

Hi,

 

Apologies for not replying sooner as I've been away from a pc.

 

I have received a letter dated 13th Aug from ARC who have attached a copy of my CCA from EGG. Egg have not responded to my original letter however ARC have put in their covering letter that 'the copy of my signed CCA from their client (EGG) shows you agreed to the Terms & Conditions of the agreement (which can be viewed at www.egg.com). As we have now supplied you with this documentation we require full payment within the next 10days. Your payment should be sent directly to this office , please ensure payment is made payable to ARC (Europe) Ltd."

Usual about payment via card cheque etc and they rounsd their letter off with "If we do not receive payment within the next 10days this account will be passed to our solicitors for further action".

 

I have scanned and attached a copy of the CCA.

I have had to reduce and sharpen the scan the only part missing is the date (May 2003) and the opening paragraph which reads:

Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974

This is a credit agreement between us, EGG Banking Plc , EGG Card, New Application, Basildon SS14 9AA and you. the main financial terms of the agreement are set out below, a copy of the agreement is enclosed for you to keep.

 

I haven't scanned the 2nd page which includes rights, loss or misuse of EGG card and the signature of myself dated May 2003 withina box that says "This is a credit agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Sign only if you want to be legally bound by its terms.

 

Box signed underneath on behalf of Egg Banking Plc.

 

Now I'm unsure as to what happens next, if the CCA is unenforceable is there a standard letter that I should send in response. EGG haven't confirmed that ARC are acting on their behalf, do I write to EGG / ARC or both?

I have not sent August's monthly payment I usually send £35 the debt is £11k+.

 

Not wanting to appear to dim but please can somebody have a look for me and advise me what to do next.

 

If the CCA is unenforceable what happens next?

 

Kind Regards

PL

[Papa Lazarouis]

I'll try again adding the scan in readable size

EGG CCA Dated May 2003.pdf

Edited August 20, 2009 by Papa Lazarouis

[basa48]

Yup, that's the typical Egg agreement fully discussed and dissected in PT's thread "Egg cards and what I think is wrong with them".

 

Long thread but WELL worth the time to read.

 

Sorry see I was redirected from right there

[Papa Lazarouis]

Hi Basa,

 

I am becoming more confused by the minute as I read the thread. If the agreement is unenforceable what exactly does that mean?

I can see that ARC are going to become a real pain if I don't have a response to them but I'm conscious of getting my response right.

EGG have ignored my letter - I presume they have passed / sold the debt to ARC who have set a tiomelimit of the 23rd for full payment (over £11k).

 

I don't want to appear dim but I'm generaly puzzled by what happens next and where do I stand / go from here.

 

Regards

PL

 

p.s. my brain hurts

[vint1954]

Hi Basa,

 

I am becoming more confused by the minute as I read the thread. If the agreement is unenforceable what exactly does that mean?

I can see that ARC are going to become a real pain if I don't have a response to them but I'm conscious of getting my response right.

EGG have ignored my letter - I presume they have passed / sold the debt to ARC who have set a tiomelimit of the 23rd for full payment (over £11k).

 

I don't want to appear dim but I'm generaly puzzled by what happens next and where do I stand / go from here.

 

Regards

PL

 

p.s. my brain hurts

Hi Papa,

 

Is the so called agreement above, all that they have sent to you? Nothing with your neme and address on it?

 

Have you ever received a Default notice from Egg, or a notice of assignment in the past.

 

Don't wory unduely, there is plenty of help on here.

 

Can you also confirm, if you sent the CCA request to Egg or ARC.

 

It sounds like ARc are just collecting for Egg.

[vint1954]

Send this letter to Egg, with a copy to ARC. Send first class recorded signed for post and keep the receipt. Also keep all envelopes attached to letters that arrive.

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

Account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

Further to my request under the above act, your attention is drawn to the fact that this account is subject to a serious dispute. On xxxxxxxxx, by recorded delivery, I requested that you supply me a copy of the executed credit agreement covering this account pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 78, a copy of this request is enclosed. To date you have failed to comply with my request, merely sending inappropriate terms and conditions, not linked to my alleged account. Without production of the said agreement I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt to you, nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’ as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

For the avoidance of any doubt I have included section 78(1) and 78(6) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which states…

 

78 Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing ( 12 working days + 2 ) to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of £1, shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a) the state of the account, and

(b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and

© the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

 

Clearly as no agreement has been supplied on request, you have not complied with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and I now draw your attention to section 78 subsection 6 which states If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

 

Clearly this is a situation as described in S.78(6) Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the debt is unenforceable at this time. In addition, I draw your attention to section 127 (3) Consumer Credit Act 1974 which states

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the consumer credit act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

To clarify S.61(1) states

 

(1)A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

 

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

© The document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible

 

In addition the prescribed terms referred to in section 60 CCA1974 are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following—

 

1.Number of repayments;

2.Amount of repayments;

3.Frequency and timing of repayments;

4.Dates of repayments;

5.The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable

 

Therefore based upon the Consumer Credit Act 1974 this debt as it stands is unenforceable and should this proceed to litigation, a court is precluded from making an enforcement order under section 127(3) unless a true copy of the signed agreement is produced..

 

At the point where this account entered into the default situation as described in s78 (6) CCA 1974 no other charges are allowed to be added until such time as you become compliant with my request. As you are still not in compliance with my request I insist that the following takes place with immediate effect.

 

All entries which refer to missed payments be removed from my credit file

All collection activities cease with immediate effect until you comply with my request from 27/03/09 or such time as a court makes an enforcement order.

In addition, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on Debt Collection

 

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

 

What I Require.

 

I require that you send me a true signed copy of the executed agreement as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. If you are unable to supply the requested documentation because no such agreement is in existence I require written clarification as such.

 

I require that you comply with my request within 7 days of the date of this letter. I will not correspond any further with you until I either receive a copy of the requested documents as laid down in section 78(1) CCA 74 or clarification that such agreement doesn’t exist. I am advised that should you persist in pursuing this debt ignoring the above information you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40 as well

 

No other correspondence will be accepted

 

Should you attempt litigation it will be vigorously defended and the failure to supply documentation under the CCA 1974 is a complete defence to any legal action and your actions will be vexatious and unlawful

 

I trust this out lines the situation

Yours faithfully

[vint1954]

If you get anything further form ARC after sending the above letter, send them this:

 

Ref Account xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Dear xxxxxxxxx,

 

I was somewhat bemused to receive your letter of xxxxxxxxx 2009, the content of which is noted. No debt to your company or client is acknowledged.

 

On xxxxxxxxxx 2009 I made a formal request to your client pursuant to s.78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. EGG have failed to comply within the statutory time limit, or at all. In addition, this alleged account was placed in dispute on the xxxxxxxxx 2009. It should not be necessary to have to remind you that the provisions of s.78(6) now apply. These letters are enclosed.

 

In the circumstances, your threat of legal action would appear to be a breach of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 and the Office of Fair Trading Guidance on Debt Collection and your attention is drawn to this guidance document.

Your attention is also drawn the ICO on Data protection, as passing details on to a third party while an account is in dispute is contrary to the Data Protection Act. I have previously issued letters to EGG under s10 of this act. You may wish to refresh yourselves of the implications of ignoring the Data Protection Act.

Should you attempt litigation it will be vigorously defended and the failure to supply documentation under the CCA 1974 is a complete defence to any legal action and your actions will be considered vexatious and unlawful. The Court's attention will drawn to the above statutory breaches . Furthermore, I reserve the right to bring the conduct of your client to the Court when the issue of costs is being considered.

I would remind you that while this alleged account remains in dispute, that EGG:

• May not ask for payment against this account.
  
• I am not obliged to offer any payment against this account.
  
• Cannot register any data with a third party.
  
• Cannot take any enforcement action, including registering Defaults.
  
• Cannot pass the account on to a third party for collection.
  
• Cannot sell the account.
  

I trust this out lines the situation and that you will take note of my comments, to avoid any further breaches of the Law, being committed by you.

 

[Papa Lazarouis]

Thanks for the prompt reply Vint.

 

EGG probably sent me a default letter a few years ago, unfortunately all my correspondence is in my ex marital home and ex isn't too keen on giving me anything (other than a good earbashing when she feels like it)

 

I sent the CCA request to EGG who asked for clarification of my address as they had no record of it, despite me sending monthly payments via Moorcroft from that address for years. Moorcroft had been collecting on the account but in Dec last year stated that they were handing the account back to EGG, as I received the letter in Jan and had already sent that payment from Feb I began sending my monthly payment direct to EGG.

2 months ago ARC began asking for full payment or legal action would be taken, I've had a solicitors letter from ARC demanding immediate payment in full, however with the proof of new address I returned to EGG (I ironically sent them the Moorcroft letter saying they were handing the account back to EGG which showed the address) I asked EGG if ARC were collecting on their behalf and if they had sold the account to ARC. I said that I wouldn't send payment until EGG confirmed who currently managed the account. As of yet I haven't sent ARC any money and until this month since Moorcrofts' departure I was sending directly to EGG. I diod ask if these monies had been accreditted against the debt, but EGG have not responded. The next thing ARC sent the CCA.

I haven't missed a payment in the 5 years. I've been sending them (£35/month) and don't want to be letting them have an excuse by missing this months', although very confused by the CCA - I'm unsure what the unenforcable claim means- With this information should I send the letters you have so kindly attached below?

 

Thanks for you help and reassurrances everyone, it really is much appreciated.

 

Regards

PL

[vint1954]

Thanks for the prompt reply Vint.

 

EGG probably sent me a default letter a few years ago, unfortunately all my correspondence is in my ex marital home and ex isn't too keen on giving me anything (other than a good earbashing when she feels like it)

 

I sent the CCA request to EGG who asked for clarification of my address as they had no record of it, despite me sending monthly payments via Moorcroft from that address for years. Moorcroft had been collecting on the account but in Dec last year stated that they were handing the account back to EGG, as I received the letter in Jan and had already sent that payment from Feb I began sending my monthly payment direct to EGG.

2 months ago ARC began asking for full payment or legal action would be taken, I've had a solicitors letter from ARC demanding immediate payment in full, however with the proof of new address I returned to EGG (I ironically sent them the Moorcroft letter saying they were handing the account back to EGG which showed the address) I asked EGG if ARC were collecting on their behalf and if they had sold the account to ARC. I said that I wouldn't send payment until EGG confirmed who currently managed the account. As of yet I haven't sent ARC any money and until this month since Moorcrofts' departure I was sending directly to EGG. I diod ask if these monies had been accreditted against the debt, but EGG have not responded. The next thing ARC sent the CCA.

I haven't missed a payment in the 5 years. I've been sending them (£35/month) and don't want to be letting them have an excuse by missing this months', although very confused by the CCA - I'm unsure what the unenforcable claim means- With this information should I send the letters you have so kindly attached below?

 

Thanks for you help and reassurrances everyone, it really is much appreciated.

 

Regards

PL

Yes,

 

Send the first letter putting the account into dispute. It is your choice to continue paying or not. Perhaps carry on for the time being, to see what the response is.

[vint1954]

I would also press Egg to find out who you should be paying.

Edited August 25, 2009 by vint1954

[Papa Lazarouis]

Morning Vint,

Letter sent recorded delivery to EGG this morning. I'll update when I get a response.

Many thanks for your help.

Regards

PL

[Papa Lazarouis]

Update*

 

Just received a letter from ARCs ' solicitor' T Munn saying that a County Court 'Claim' has been prepared against me. It includes the full cost of the debt and an additional £190 court fees + £100 solicitors fees.

 

I'll send them the letter you kindly drafted the other day for me.

 

Regards

PL

[vint1954]

Hi Papa,

 

Have you sent the letter in post #17 to ARC. If not, do so now.

 

Also another problem found with Egg agreements if it goes that far. have a look here.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/217001-cancellation-rights-plus-discussion.html#post2392771

[jcbkabs]

hi can someone help me please i put my egg account into dispute on the 12/06/2009 no reponse to letter resent it on the 15/07/2009 still no reply to the letters came home tonight and had an email to log into my egg account to read a secure message message was to tell me that they are going to issue a default on me in the next few days is there a way i can stop this happening or a letter i can send to the credit refance agencies

[Papa Lazarouis]

Hi Papa,

 

Have you sent the letter in post #17 to ARC. If not, do so now.

 

Also another problem found with Egg agreements if it goes that far. have a look here.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/217001-cancellation-rights-plus-discussion.html#post2392771

 

 

Morning Vint, letter from *17 sent recorded delivery this morning.

I'll have a check out on this link now.

Many Thanks

Regards

PL