Who knows about access onto driveways??

[lexis200]

I'm on the end of a terrace in a Close and our drives are made up a little oddly. As you look at the houses there is an 'L' shape made up of our drive on the right (the short bit of the 'L'), then our garden taking up the corner of the 'L', then the other two drives next to our garden on the long bit. The 'L' has the long bit along the top and the short bit pointing down on the right. Any of this making sense so far?

 

Anyway, our neighbour on the end, who rented the property a few months ago has 4 cars. They frequently park slightly over the end of their drive which causes me a fair bit of hassle when I try and get out of ours, so I have to manoeuvre around rather than getting straight out. This is annoying, but apart from the couple of times they've managed to do it enough to properly block me in (I wasn't going out so it didn't matter then) not exactly a huge issue, so I've not bothered saying anything.

 

We have two cars, one parked on the drive and one some way down the road as the parking is tricky where we are.

 

When we got back from a night away on Saturday, there was nowhere for the car to be parked, so we went next to this guys drive.

 

Another image for you...His drive is just about 2 cars width, and on the corner. It is level with the road the whole way round, but obviously they only park going in and out from the front otherwise they couldn't fit all their cars on. They do however park half on their drive, over the pavement area and onto the road with the other cars next to them. The entire area where our spaces are, including my neighbours on the other side is level to the road, even where the drives end. I suppose this was cheaper to do than bother with raising and lowering the kerb?

 

Back to the (very long) story. We parked to the left of his drive, parallel with all the cars, not blocking his entrance in and out. As we were walking from the car, the neighbour came out and just said 'You're not parking that there are you' (no question mark, this was a statement not a question!). OH said it's not blocking his (currently empty) drive as they only go in and out from the front, but swiftly getting more aggressive neighbour says that he's paid for the drive and we can't park there (remember he's a tenant and we know the kerb was like that before he moved in, so if it was dropped he has not paid for it).

 

It being late and us with the kids we didn't push the point and OH moved to bleedin' miles away.

 

The point of this lengthy question is to ask do they actually have the right to deny parking like that? Is there any way to find out if this is a proper right of access, or if it's just been laid out oddly and the access is as we think only a right from the front of the property?

 

It's very hard to describe without pictures, but hopefully someone can get the idea.

 

One thing I have found out on my searching for the answer is that it's not illegal to park over someone's drive if their is no wheeled vehicle there. It's highly dis-courteous, but you can do it. You can't block someone coming out though. So technically, I could be calling the police on them every time I am stuck having to weave my way through to get out, and they could do bugger all if I parked directly over their drive the other night as it was empty. I never would as I think it's such bad manners to block someone either way (and you'd probably end up being keyed), but apparently I could have!

 

Any thoughts anyone? It's just really wound me up due to 1) their frequent poor parking and 2) the way he asked - I wouldn't have given it a second thought if he'd just asked politely if we could move.

Edited July 6, 2009 by lexis200

[maroondevo52]

Hi, lexis.

 

Do you want this thread moved to the 'parking' Forum, loads of knowledgeable people in there

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

[lexis200]

Hi Scott - that'd be great thanks, I didn't even think about putting it there:oops:

[maroondevo52]

Thread moved

[wheelergeezer]

A picture paints a thousand words. If you post up a picture from google earth it would be much easier to understand.

[lexis200]

Thanks wheelergeezer - I think it's below!

 

Google Maps

 

Ours is the drive with the black car (must be ages old - we've been here two years and that's not our car:)), neighbours with the van and the car own that bit of the drive, the bit that is empty is the one in question. Darker strip round the edge is the pavement, which is all dropped, and you can see goes beyond their house where there is a patch of bushes, and again opposite them where it's in front of a house.

[green_and_mean]

If someone has the kerb lowered to allow access in and out of their property it is a parking 'offence' to park across it regardless if there is a car there or not you could get a PCN even if the householder does not own a car.

[lexis200]

As I said the kerb is dropped all over the place, including areas in front of houses and where there is grass verge and bushes. These are most definitely not access points but the kerb is still road level.

[pin1onu]

It might be worth talking to the tenants and trying to sort things out amicably. Put over your point of view but do so in a calm manner.

 

If this fails you could try going through their landlord. Do you know who the landlord is? It might be worth you while finding out and asking them to have a word to their tenants. The majority of landlords I've dealt with expect their tenants to be courteous in their dealings with their neighbours and would not want any upset to be caused.

 

I've had a similar experience with some idiots in the house next to mine. They had mates who would park over our drive - we asked them to sort it out but it kept happening. Spoke to the landlord and saw an immediate improvement.

[lexis200]

Thanks pin1onu

 

As it goes I'm really not too concerned about them parking as they do. We're hopefully moving in a few months and I really can't be bothered to get into a barny about it with them (he doesn't strike me as the amicable type:)).

 

All that irritated me was his attitude in telling us not to park there, when we were not obstructing his drive in any way. If you have a look at the map page, as you look from above, we were parked on the left hand side of the house, but on the road (about where you can see the blue wheelie bin lid). They enter and exit from the front all the time, otherwise they can't fit all their cars on. I think his issue was that if we parked there he couldn't park over the pavement with his, thus managing to fit all his cars on the drive that's not quite big enough for them!

 

They frequently park right to the end of the drive that you can see, just before the pavement bit starts. This is fine as long as I don't have a car next to me, but if that neighbour is in it gets pretty awkward to get out.

 

green_and_mean, this is what I am finding all over the place when I have searched for this

 

If your drive is legal, dropped kerb, then if someone parks across your drive while your car is on it, then they are guilty of the offence of Unnecessary Obstruction. In GMP land that is Offence Code 320 and is punishable by a Fixed Penalty Notice of £30. Unless they don't want to play ball, in which case

it comes down to the Magistrates. If the Cop (not Local Authority Parking Attendant) or Traffic PCSO, if you have them, can persuade the Duty Inspector, the vehcle can be removed at the owner's expense. Unfortunately,

since the demise of the Police Traffic Warden, the only people who can enforce this offence are the aforementioned PC or TPCSO. Normal PCSOs can't, at least not in our area. The reason the offence only applies if the vehicle is on the drive, is that the obstructing driver is preventing you going about your normal daily life, which could include going to the Hospital or work or the buy food. If you can't get on the drive then you could simply park elsewhere until the other vehicle has gone.

 

This argument is quoted over and over again in various forms - are you saying it is incorrect?

 

(I have to point out here I'm not asking so that I can go and do it - as I mentioned I just don't do that. We used to live near a nursery school where mums would regularly park over our drive when dropping off/picking up, so I'm very aware about blocking people now!)

[green_and_mean]

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2004/ukpga_20040018_en_9

 

 

86 Prohibition of parking at dropped footways etc.

(1) In a special enforcement area a vehicle must not be parked on the carriageway adjacent to a footway, cycle track or verge where—

(a) the footway, cycle track or verge has been lowered to meet the level of the carriageway for the purpose of—

(i) assisting pedestrians crossing the carriageway,

(ii) assisting cyclists entering or leaving the carriageway, or

(iii) assisting vehicles entering or leaving the carriageway across the footway, cycle track or verge; or

(b) the carriageway has, for a purpose within paragraph (a)(i) to (iii), been raised to meet the level of the footway, cycle track or verge.

This is subject to the following exceptions.

(2) The first exception is where the vehicle is parked wholly within a designated parking place or any other part of the carriageway where parking is specifically authorised.

A “designated parking place” means a parking place designated by order under section 6, 9, 32(1)(b) or 45 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (c. 27).

(3) The second exception is where the vehicle is parked outside residential premises by or with the consent (but not consent given for reward) of the occupier of the premises.

This exception does not apply in the case of a shared driveway.

(4) The third exception is where the vehicle is being used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes.

(5) The fourth exception is where—

(a) the vehicle is being used for the purposes of delivering goods to, or collecting goods from, any premises, or is being loaded from or unloaded to any premises,

(b) the delivery, collection, loading or unloading cannot reasonably be carried out in relation to those premises without the vehicle being parked as mentioned in subsection (1), and

© the vehicle is so parked for no longer than is necessary and for no more than 20 minutes.

(6) The fifth exception is where—

(a) the vehicle is being used in connection with any of the following—

(i) undertaking any building operation, demolition or excavation,

(ii) the collection of waste by a local authority,

(iii) removing an obstruction to traffic,

(iv) undertaking works in relation to a road, a traffic sign or road lighting, or

(v) undertaking works in relation to a sewer or water main or in relation to the supply of gas, electricity, water or communications services,

(b) it cannot be so used without being parked as mentioned in subsection (1), and

© it is so parked for no longer than is necessary.

(7) In this section “carriageway”, “cycle track” and “footway” have the meanings given by section 329(1) of the Highways Act 1980 (c. 66).

(8) References in this section to parking include waiting, but do not include stopping where—

(a) the driver is prevented from proceeding by circumstances beyond his control or it is necessary for him to stop to avoid an accident, or

(b) the vehicle is stopped, for no longer than is necessary, for the purpose of allowing people to board or alight from it.

(9) The prohibition in this section is enforceable as if imposed—

(a) in Greater London, by an order under section 6 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (c. 27),

(b) elsewhere in England and Wales, by an order under section 1 of that Act.

[wheelergeezer]

It would seem that bthe problem is not straight forward. There is a dropped kerb all the way from your house to the blue bin? Then you cannot park blocking any of that AFAIK. However, 4 cars????? I would certainly be talking with the house owner and checking with them. If you are reasonable with the landlord it should be straight forward.

 

I cannot see how they are parking and obstructing you. If you reverse onto your driveway will they then park obstructing the pavement in front of your house or theirs? If so that is obstruction. Someone in a wheelchair cannot be expected to use the road so that they can park on the pavement.

 

As they have made it akward for you to park at the weekend, then you need to make it quite clear to them that if the block your driveway you will contact their landlord, who is a good friend of yours.

[lexis200]

It would seem that bthe problem is not straight forward. There is a dropped kerb all the way from your house to the blue bin? Past it actually - it just continues right along the road for the most part - in front of bushes and the front of houses, hence my quandary as to whether the bit to the side of him is really a dropped kerb or if it's just lazy building when the estate was done!Then you cannot park blocking any of that AFAIK. However, 4 cars????? I would certainly be talking with the house owner and checking with them. If you are reasonable with the landlord it should be straight forward.

 

I cannot see how they are parking and obstructing you. If you reverse onto your driveway will they then park obstructing the pavement in front of your house or theirs? Yes, they sometimes park far enough back that if my other neighbour is in I either have to manoeuvre round or on a couple of occasions have just been blocked (not that I've needed to get out then, so it didn't worry me as I know parking is hard where we are). Trouble is our bit of drive intersects with the two neighbours if you look carefully - really it should have been a wider bit of pavement there I think. So we have to park to the end of it to allow the two cars we share the drive with to park, but this means if the ones on the other side park out at all they obstruct us. If they park out more than a little, then they block us if our other neighbours are in. If so that is obstruction. Someone in a wheelchair cannot be expected to use the road so that they can park on the pavement.

 

As they have made it akward for you to park at the weekend, then you need to make it quite clear to them that if the block your driveway you will contact their landlord, who is a good friend of yours.

 

Thanks for the advice:)