2 Speeding tickets, same day same location

[amichaud55]

I have received two NIPs for speeding on the same day in the same location (48 and 51 in a 40MPH zone). One in the morning, and one in the evening.

 

I have to respond to this letter, but would like to request further information from them to see what they actually have, and that it is correct. I will tell them that I need this to refresh my memory of who was driving.

 

As I already have 3 points on my license it is key that i dont get another 6. I'm not sure how to plea with them that I should only be given one of these tickets though. Luck will need to be on my side, clearly.

 

Any thoughts on this would be great. Thanks

 

Laura

[sparkeyrjp]

Whilst this may not be the reply you want , and not help you get off conviction

It appears that you habitually speed , and have been caught .

There is nothing to be gained by discussing the merit of the speed limit in the location , the limit is there and should be observed .

If this curbs your desire to speed , then JOB DONE

[wheelergeezer]

You will be proscuted for BOTH offences as they are indeed two totally seperate events. If prosecuted, you are likely to get 3 points and £60 fine for EACH. It is possible they will refer this to the magistrates court rether than offering a fixed penalty as habitual speeding is frowned upon - quite rightly.

 

I think that will depend on what your original 3 points are for and how long ago. If they are also for speeding I would think it likely it will go to magistrates who may consider a ban if they feel 51 is too exessive in a 40. 27.5% over the speed limit is not taken lightly.

[david1605red]

... As I already have 3 points on my license it is key that i dont get another 6. I'm not sure how to plea with them that I should only be given one of these tickets though. Luck will need to be on my side, clearly.

Ignoring the moral finger wagging, which has no place on a consumer advice site, and looking at the practicalities, the fact that these two NIPs were several hours apart will not help you.

 

Being flashed twice on the same stretch of road as part of the same journey can sometimes be counted as a single offence, but this is unlikely in your case due to the time separation, and the fact that they were in opposite directions.

 

By all means write and ask for photographs "to help identify the driver", don't mention evidence or proof at this stage, and if they send you photos you could post them up on pepipoo so that experts there can see if there was anything untoward with either of the "pings".

 

Bear in mind that the 28-day timeframe to respond to the NIPs continues regardless of whether or not they reply to your letter.

[wheelergeezer]

.....and the fact that they were in opposite directions.

 

The OP didn't say they were in different directions. Just one was in the morning and one in the evening.

[patdavies]

The OP didn't say they were in different directions. Just one was in the morning and one in the evening.

 

Even so, they would have needed to be in excess of the limit for the whole time between the 'pings' for it to be considered as a single offence.

 

This exposes a flaw in the system of automated enforcement in that you can be pinged several times on a single day and then have issue re. totting up, but had you been stopped on the first occasion, it is likely that you would have modified your behaviour.

 

Proof, if proof were needed, that safety cameras do not stop speeding; they only detect it. Physical Police presence tends to stop speeding.

 

AIUI, if the OP takes both of these to Court and asks for them to be heard together, he will still get points, but maybe less than 6.

[amichaud55]

yeah, enough of the moral finger wagging thank you very much... 48 in a 40 is hardly a crazy speeder... if i was going 4mph slower, it woudlnt have even flashed

 

the other 3 points are for talking on the mobile

 

the camera is the same one, facing the same way on the same stretch of road.

 

The point that i was going to try to take to court, is that... in a perfect world, I would have been given this ticket at the time of the offence, and would have never sped on that road again. By waiting 10 days to send it to me, and me not seeing it, I am a little concerned that I will get a ton of these NIPs over the coming week.

[crem]

 

The point that i was going to try to take to court, is that... in a perfect world, I would have been given this ticket at the time of the offence, and would have never sped on that road again. By waiting 10 days to send it to me, and me not seeing it, I am a little concerned that I will get a ton of these NIPs over the coming week.

 

I agree this system is fundamentally flawed in that respect. Whilst common sense and logic would suggest only one penalty should apply at least until you have been informed of your error, legally I suspect none of this willl come into play.

 

I recall reading on a thread here about a scooter rider who had been led to believe by his trainers that he could rider in bus lanes. Some you can and some you can't. He spent the next couple of weeks riding daily in a bus lane before he got his first PCN. He stopped riding in it immediately, but potentially had a fortunesworth of PCNs still to look forward to.

 

Would have been nice to know how this came out, i.e. did he appeal these and get a nice magistrate to see common sense or did he have to pay them all.

 

This exposes a flaw in the system of automated enforcement in that you can be pinged several times on a single day and then have issue re. totting up, but had you been stopped on the first occasion, it is likely that you would have modified your behaviour.

 

Proof, if proof were needed, that safety cameras do not stop speeding; they only detect it. Physical Police presence tends to stop speeding.

 

AIUI, if the OP takes both of these to Court and asks for them to be heard together, he will still get points, but maybe less than 6.

 

I agree with patdavies statement that cameras do not prevent speeding or moving violations, they just make it financially beneficial not to want to prevent it, just simply to record it.

Edited July 7, 2009 by crem

[wheelergeezer]

... 48 in a 40 is hardly a crazy speeder...

 

You seem very unconcerned about the speed. 48 is the speed the camera clocked you at. Your speedo would have been showing around 52-54mph at that speed. You don't think that is a crazy speeder? I do and I am sure others do.

 

It will take you considerably longer to stop in an emergency. Everyone thinks that they are different and will be able to react. That is why all my pupils are taken to the local salvage yard before they take their test. Everyone of the drivers of the dozens of smashed up cars in there thought that they weren't crazy, or could stop if they had to. They didn't.

 

You asked if there was a way of basically geting these two offences merged into one. There isn't.

 

Yes people do drive faster than you. But many, many obey the sped limits and don't get speeding fines.

[amichaud55]

the moral finger wagger is back... ufffft... nope, i dont think that going 48 in a 40 is a crazy speeder... i wasn't driving 52 or 54, i was driving 48mph... i couldn't care less if my speedo was showing 100mph, if it is inaccurate then so be it. I would have felt relatively confident if a police officer was driving behind me at that speed.

Many people I have spoken to have managed to "merge" their offences into one. Mostly by finding a lenient magistrate, not sure what I will do, but it could be worth a try... also there are courses that the magistrates can decide to send you on if he feels that it would serve a purpose.

As you are so concerned, for your information I consistently drive at a speed which i consider to be safe considering the type of road, traffic, and conditions.

I have never had an accident, and while yes, in 14 years of driving i have received 2 speeding fines (2 of which from a hidden camera in the same location on the same day) on a wide, safe, road with lots of visibility, and no pavement or pedestrians (it is a dual carriageway underpass with a 40 limit!), i consider myself to be a safe and reasonable driver... but thanks for your point of view, it really is a huge help...

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

It may be that the 40mph limit has been set because of restricted vision (and hence braking space) because of the underpass and perhaps there is a history of hold-ups. It may also be to reduce noise levels.

 

Personally, I don't think you have a prayer of having these two combined.

 

I can't help but feel that it would be the right thing for you to get sent on a speed awareness course. If you get to see some of the scenarios that kill and maim on a daily basis it is a real eye-opener.

 

Best of luck!

[wheelergeezer]

Is everyone who doesn't agree with you a moral finger waiver? Don't make comments like '48 in a 40 isn't crazy' and complain when some of us who have a better understanding of road sense, respond.

 

You say you were not going 52 or 54, no but you were also caught doing 51 or did you forget that one?

 

It is no good making statements like 'i couldn't care less if my speedo was showing 100mph' and expecting support. Clerarly you are irresponsible and the 6 penalty points (minimum) will help you to think more about how you regard speed limits.

[sparkeyrjp]

So YOU drive at the speed that YOU think is safe , YOU talk on the phone whilst driving, and in 14 years other people have managed to avoid you whilst YOU have not been paying attention,

And you have the neck to try to occupy the moral high ground , by accusing others of moral finger wagging ,

6 points is too good for you

[Startkey&Clutch]

I dont understand why you think that with 3 points already, two speeding convictions pending and potentially 'tons' more on the way in the coming week, that you think any magistrate would do anything other than come down on you very hard.

 

I wouldnt go near a court if I were you.

[katedog]

So YOU drive at the speed that YOU think is safe , YOU talk on the phone whilst driving, and in 14 years other people have managed to avoid you whilst YOU have not been paying attention,

And you have the neck to try to occupy the moral high ground , by accusing others of moral finger wagging ,

6 points is too good for you

 

 

I agree.

 

Just for info there are only certain arears that conduct speed awareness courses, the option is offered by the police or camera partnership for the area, not magistartes.

If your area run the course you havent been offered it becasue you are over the threshold limit(set by your areas enfrocement team) ie they only offer it to people who are "just" speeding, not those who are proper speeding and should know it.

 

As for being a good driver I would question your forward observations if you cant see the camera, the distance stripes on the road surface, the advance warning sign for the camera or the brake lights of everybody infront of you who will touch the brakes even if they are already bellow the speed limit.

 

PS there is no way a magistrate would combine these into one offence.

[patdavies]

PS there is no way a magistrate would combine these into one offence.

 

Nobody has suggested that they could.

 

However, if the cases are heard concurrently (or even on the same day), AFAIK, only one set of 3 points counts towards totting up.

[katedog]

Nobody has suggested that they could.

 

However, if the cases are heard concurrently (or even on the same day), AFAIK, only one set of 3 points counts towards totting up.

 

 

The OP has suggested it or a leat asked if it is an option.

 

However the cases are heard (one offence/two trials or two offences/one trial) the bench have the option to award points for each offence if they do then each set of points WILL count toward tooting up.

Edited July 8, 2009 by katedog

[patdavies]

However the cases are heard (one offence/two trials or two offences/one trial) the bench have the option to award points for each offence if they do then each set of points WILL count toward tooting up.

 

But not totting up

 

Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 s.28

 

28 Penalty points to be attributed to an offence

 

(1) Where a person is convicted of an offence involving obligatory or discretionary disqualification, the number of penalty points to be attributed to the offence, subject to subsection (2) below, is—

(a) in the case of an offence under a provision of the Traffic Acts specified in column 1 of Part I of Schedule 2 to this Act or an offence specified in column 1 of Part II of that Schedule, the number shown against the provision or offence in the last column or, where a range of numbers is so shown, a number falling within the range, and

(b) in the case of an offence committed by aiding, abetting, counselling or procuring, or inciting to the commission of, an offence involving obligatory disqualification, ten penalty points.

(2) Where a person is convicted of two or more such offences, the number of penalty points to be attributed to those of them that were committed on the same occasion is the number or highest number that would be attributed on a conviction of one of them.

 

 

An example, If you have 4 bald tyres, you will be convicted and fined for each of them, but only get one set of 3 points. You don't get 3 points for each and thus tot up to disqualification

[jed52]

We have been having this very same discussion on another thread.

It sounds like the only thing that will stop you speeding, is to have your licence revoked under the totting up procedure.

It seems to me that you will speed no matter what, and the only reason you will slow down is if you see a camera or a traffic cop.

YOU drive at a speed that YOU think is safe. Arrogance at it's highest!

You want the offences merged into one. Why? You got caught on a camera twice in the same place. Doh!

Maybe you didn't see the camera because you were concentrating on a phone call at the time.

Learn the lesson and eat humble pie, it doesn't taste that bad sometimes.

jed

[katedog]

(2) Where a person is convicted of two or more such offences, the number of penalty points to be attributed to those of them that were committed on the same occasion is the number or highest number that would be attributed on a conviction of one of them.

 

What that means is, for instance your were caught driving without insurance (six penalty points) and the nice officer found two baldy tyres (three points a tyre) then the magistrates would endorse your licence (that just menas writing the offence in the relevant box on your licence) with all three offences but are obliged to only put six points on your licence for the more serious insurance offence.

 

Dont get confused between endorsements and points. They are two seperate things. Drink drive shows as an endorsemnet on your licence but you dont get points you get a ban (yes i konw you can get points for certain drink drive offences)

 

besdides this is not one occasion this is two.

[TD27]

the moral finger wagger is back... ufffft... nope, i dont think that going 48 in a 40 is a crazy speeder... i wasn't driving 52 or 54, i was driving 48mph... i couldn't care less if my speedo was showing 100mph, if it is inaccurate then so be it. I would have felt relatively confident if a police officer was driving behind me at that speed.

 

Many people I have spoken to have managed to "merge" their offences into one. Mostly by finding a lenient magistrate, not sure what I will do, but it could be worth a try... also there are courses that the magistrates can decide to send you on if he feels that it would serve a purpose.

 

As you are so concerned, for your information I consistently drive at a speed which i consider to be safe considering the type of road, traffic, and conditions.

 

I have never had an accident, and while yes, in 14 years of driving i have received 2 speeding fines (2 of which from a hidden camera in the same location on the same day) on a wide, safe, road with lots of visibility, and no pavement or pedestrians (it is a dual carriageway underpass with a 40 limit!), i consider myself to be a safe and reasonable driver... but thanks for your point of view, it really is a huge help...

 

Laura, whilst I sympathise to an extent with the concerns you have over further incoming NIP's the situation seems to be self induced. Take responsibility for your actions, not pleasant and not ideal. For whatever reason you exceeded the speed limit and were caught twice on the same day.

 

Accidents (as they used to be called) or crash's as they're now referred to happen by definition unexpectedly. The fact you've never had an accident is not an indicator that you won't. The limit posted where you were caught will be there for a reason and I'm sure your local police / traffic officers will have attended RTC's at or near the location in their time.

 

People get so concerned about their licences when caught speeding, they seem to forget that holding a licence is not a right. If only they considered that at the time. Of course it's easier to tackle the system, see what evidence they have rather than take it on the chin and admit the mistake / error of judgement.

 

Of course if you were on nine points you might well find your driving style alters for the better. Which is more important safety or convenience?

[wheelergeezer]

By heck, I think you must be my twin! I echo every word of that again.

[TD27]

Tarquin?

[wheelergeezer]

Cedrick?

[jed52]

You 2 should meet up, you've got a lot of catching up to do!

But it's not a good idea to use your real names, I'd change them if I were you.

jed