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beavis123

Application form or credit agreement?

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I did post this in the Lloyds forum but not much response. Could someone please have a look at this and point out any irregularities? I'm not sure if it even constitutes a proper credit agreement.. Thanks

 

img006.jpg

 

img007.jpg

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if you look right hand copy of the tc you will see bank copy not yours but the bank copy oops.


Id quot circumiret, circumveniat.

 

please do not take my word for anything please do your own research All that i make comments on are done in good faith and to the best of my knowledge

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oopps again left hand of the tc


Id quot circumiret, circumveniat.

 

please do not take my word for anything please do your own research All that i make comments on are done in good faith and to the best of my knowledge

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It's a microfiche so there are parts of it that are illegible - it must be legible. Secondly, why are the interest rates cut off at the bottom? If you cannot see them, there is no agreement.

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Lily,

 

what is the importance of "bank copy". I have asked this before on a thread. Is it good for us if that is what is on the back.

 

I have one for LLTSB who have issued a court claim.

 

HH

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I would suggest that the issue of "bank copy" is not important at all. Actually, it will be the bank copy of the agreement that they keep as they would have given you the "customer copy"

 

But, as pinky99 says, if it doens't have the apr then they're stuffed and it's not enforceable

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Sorry I have realised I have interferred in somebody else's thread-my apologies.

 

My OH's credit agreements or his application forms which they purport to be his credit agreements do have the APRs and yet have been told they are uneforceable as they do not have the prescribed terms.

 

I will start a thread but will sub on this one as this is similar to mine.

 

HH

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interesting in regards to bank or customer copy

 

MAY I ASK WHAT DOES IT SAY AT THE TOP LEFT HAND CORNER OF THE APPLICATION FORM UNDER ASSET APPLICATION FORM

 

REGARDS LILLY


Id quot circumiret, circumveniat.

 

please do not take my word for anything please do your own research All that i make comments on are done in good faith and to the best of my knowledge

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Lily,

 

I don't know if you mean me or the original poster but I do know it says

 

If your application is accepted by our signature below and we send you a card, then this will form the agreement made between you the Principal Cardholder and us Lloyds TSB Bank Plc on the conditions overleaf.

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You seem to have left CAPS LOCK on.

 

Sorry, I don't understand your comment

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My apologise in regards to the cap lock new computer still trying to get hang of it.

 

thanks HH and then it goes on to say full conditions in our brochure etc.

 

Well they cant be set out some where else they must be part of the agreement.

 

Also credit limit can be found in section 5 where is that of course these are my views open to debate


Id quot circumiret, circumveniat.

 

please do not take my word for anything please do your own research All that i make comments on are done in good faith and to the best of my knowledge

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so in a resent court case

 

 

6. The thrust of Miss Gardner's submission is that the issue directed by the District Judge, and on which the evidence has been focussed, is whether the bank supplied the defendant at the time of signing the application form for credit with documents which contained all the terms of the agreement between them. I shall elaborate a little further on this. It has been the defendant's case that he was supplied with nothing more than the application form which he signed. It has been the bank's case that in accordance with the usual practice of the bank the defendant would have been, and must have been, supplied with other documents, including a pack which will have contained all the terms and conditions of the agreement made between the parties. Miss Gardner goes on to say that the defendant has at the last moment taken a new and radically different point, namely that the document signed by the defendant did not contain all the prescribed terms of the agreement. I must again elaborate on this. It is common ground that the only document signed by the defendant was the application form. It is also common ground that the application form did not, on its face, set out the prescribed terms of the agreement between the parties. The point which is treated by Miss Gardner as a

new point is dealt with in paragraphs 22 and 23 of Mr Berkley's written argument, and it will, I think, be more economical if I simply quote those two paragraphs in full rather than attempt,in my own words, to expand on them:

 

"The key words in Section 61(1)(a) are the reference to a document

itself containing all the prescribed terms, and conforming to the

regulations under Section 61. This language is clear and specific, and

ensures that mere reference to terms contained in another document

will not suffice. The document must contain the prescribed terms, just

as the signed document referred to in Section 127(3), which might save

the day, must however contain the prescribed terms. The construction

contended for by the defendant is entirely consistent with the language

of Section 61(1), and is also supported by Professor Good in his

encyclopaedic work - see Good & Consumer Credit Law and Practice

volume 2, 2B 5.121, and see also the comments at 2B 5.247. There the

learned author draws a distinction between the language of paragraph

(a) contain and paragraph (b) embody. It is respectfully submitted that

the court should adopt the same reasoning in determining this issue in

favour of the defendant, irrespective of whether or not it finds that the

defendant was supplied with documents other than the credit

agreement itself".

 

i do not believe the where debating the banks copy

 

regards to you all


Id quot circumiret, circumveniat.

 

please do not take my word for anything please do your own research All that i make comments on are done in good faith and to the best of my knowledge

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This is my LLTSB "application form" which is clearer.

 

LloydsTSBAssetGoldCardAppForm.jpg

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The terms and conditions were not on the back in my CCA request but miraculously appeared in my CPR request.

 

TermsandConditions-Lloyds.jpg

Note - halfway down above instructions to your bank on the first page it states 16 June 2000. How could I have signed and dated a form in April 2000 with a date not even arrived at!

 

I will go back to the original poster's form and see if anything can be picked at.

 

HH

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Again they are not your copy it is the bank date prove it

 

So where are the terms they are not there.

 

59.—(1) An agreement is void if, and to the extent that, it purports to bind a person to

enter as debtor or hirer into a prospective regulated agreement.

 

 

regards to all


Id quot circumiret, circumveniat.

 

please do not take my word for anything please do your own research All that i make comments on are done in good faith and to the best of my knowledge

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Thanks Lily.

 

Would we have got exactly the same from the bank showing the front and then at the back "customer" copy. If so I think we have opened a can of worms here because we would not have signed the application form twice would we?

 

Beavis where the interest rates cut off at the bottom!

 

I would have loved to see how much the interest rates were a year later!

 

HH

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The terms and conditions were not on the back in my CCA request but miraculously appeared in my CPR request.

 

 

Note - halfway down above instructions to your bank on the first page it states 16 June 2000. How could I have signed and dated a form in April 2000 with a date not even arrived at!

 

HH,

 

Are you saying that that is not your signature on the form?

 

The form has a date on the right hand side that says April 2000 and, higher up, a stamp of when it was received that says either 16 or 18 April 2000.

 

If you read the text next to the bit that says June 2000 that might shed some light on this.

 

The T&Cs that they claim were on the back do contain all of the prescribed terms.

 

You would need to demonstrate to a judge that there is no evidence that the T&Cs were actually on the back of the agreement that you signed.

 

Would we have got exactly the same from the bank showing the front and then at the back "customer" copy.

 

Yes, they would have sent you a copy to sign and keep (the "customer copy") and one for you to sign and return to them (the "bank copy")

 

I think we have opened a can of worms here because we would not have signed the application form twice would we?

 

I'm sorry, but I don't understand this comment. If you didn't sign the copy that you kept (as most people don't) that doesn't mean that you didn't sign the copy that you returned to the bank and I would suggest that, unless you deny that is your signature, you did sign the agreement and return it.

 

However, the claimant must be able to prove that the T&Cs were actually on the back of the agreement and, if it comes to court, you would have to try and persuade the judge that they were not.

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Hi, thanks for the replies.

 

hammyhound - Yes, that is an exact copy of what they sent me. I have just found this interesting bit of legislation that i will put in my letter....

 

Regulation 2(1) of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557), requires that the lettering in every notice in a form prescribed by these regulations and in every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the act shall, apart from any signature, be easily legible and of a colour which is readily distinguishable from the background medium upon which the information is displayed.

 

I guess that the fact that bottom of the page is cut off makes it pretty well not easily legible... :p

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The fact that the bottom half is cut off means it is unenforceable - it has cut off one of the key prescribed terms - the interest rate. They have made a real mess of putting this on microfilm.

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Thats what i thought. Thanks for the replies :)

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so in a resent court case

 

 

6. The thrust of Miss Gardner's submission is that the issue directed by the District Judge, and on which the evidence has been focussed, is whether the bank supplied the defendant at the time of signing the application form for credit with documents which contained all the terms of the agreement between them. I shall elaborate a little further on this. It has been the defendant's case that he was supplied with nothing more than the application form which he signed. It has been the bank's case that in accordance with the usual practice of the bank the defendant would have been, and must have been, supplied with other documents, including a pack which will have contained all the terms and conditions of the agreement made between the parties. Miss Gardner goes on to say that the defendant has at the last moment taken a new and radically different point, namely that the document signed by the defendant did not contain all the prescribed terms of the agreement. I must again elaborate on this. It is common ground that the only document signed by the defendant was the application form. It is also common ground that the application form did not, on its face, set out the prescribed terms of the agreement between the parties. The point which is treated by Miss Gardner as a

new point is dealt with in paragraphs 22 and 23 of Mr Berkley's written argument, and it will, I think, be more economical if I simply quote those two paragraphs in full rather than attempt,in my own words, to expand on them:

 

"The key words in Section 61(1)(a) are the reference to a document

itself containing all the prescribed terms, and conforming to the

regulations under Section 61. This language is clear and specific, and

ensures that mere reference to terms contained in another document

will not suffice. The document must contain the prescribed terms, just

as the signed document referred to in Section 127(3), which might save

the day, must however contain the prescribed terms. The construction

contended for by the defendant is entirely consistent with the language

of Section 61(1), and is also supported by Professor Good in his

encyclopaedic work - see Good & Consumer Credit Law and Practice

volume 2, 2B 5.121, and see also the comments at 2B 5.247. There the

learned author draws a distinction between the language of paragraph

(a) contain and paragraph (b) embody. It is respectfully submitted that

the court should adopt the same reasoning in determining this issue in

favour of the defendant, irrespective of whether or not it finds that the

defendant was supplied with documents other than the credit

agreement itself".

 

i do not believe the where debating the banks copy

 

regards to you all

 

 

Please can you let me know where this came from?

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the bottom of the first form has a printers date of April 2001

 

was is the printers date on the second sheet ( T & C's)

 

is there any reference on sheet 1 to sheet 2(reverse)

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Theres no date on the T&C's, but the bottom of the sheet is cut off... :lol:

 

img007.jpg

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