Boxclever vs Toffee

[kiptower]

the point is there claim is wrong from the start, they are talking about a SALE of an item you had a "hire only agreement"

 

their claim should have been for rental/hire fee's etc NOT the price of the item, count how many payments you made before it broke down, at worst your agument was you stopped paying as they did not repair/replace the faulty item

 

you also have their faulse claim of supplying a new machine,

 

at worst depending what you put in the defence, you need to go for amended defence on the grounds you did not understand the claim, in that their POC was confusing to you,

[Toffeewoman]

Thanks HAS, I haven't heard of that. If it's without the cost it can only be good! And I can use this despite the fact my AoS says I've admitted part of the claim? Good if so.

 

Been looking around for lifespans and official data on this machine, but it's so old there doesn't appear to be much, if any. Found several people who've mentioned it on review sites who've said it's terrible, permanently breaking down. New machines appear to be expected to last from upwards of 9 years. Some sites are saying 10-14 and even more. But this wasn't brand new. I may write to the Hotpoint site and see what they say.

 

Gawd!

 

ETA Cheers Kiptower. I'll see if that's possible. I'll put everything I can on to my draft defence so that it'll make it easier come the time to just c&p bits as needed. When it gets nearer and the court specialists have a look, we can decide which is the best route to go. It's great to know that I have at least a couple of options - a couple more than I thought I had yesterday!

 

But you're right. I should have hung fire and waited before I did the AoS. I had another week so I wish I hadn't been so hasty now. Heigh ho!

Edited July 3, 2009 by Toffeewoman

[kiptower]

as far as the sale of goods act goes the max expected life , where you can claim back would be about 6 years,

 

first point is they are wrong in the case they have presented in the POC ,

 

you were renting/leasing the item it would never be yours, you were not / did not buy it

 

their claim implies you bought and failed to pay

[clemma]

The Sale of Goods (Implied Terms) Act would apply here as it is HP (or is it - not sure as you are not actually purchasing the goods). Anyway, like kip has said, the normal time is 6 years for large electrical items. You have a reconditioned (not mentioned) machine, which would probably be expected to last at least 3-4 years.

 

The fact it is not mentioned on your agreement that it is, in effect, 2nd hand, the POC's are totally wrong and the amount you have already paid should go to your advantage. Also, you have a broken machine which they refuse to pick up, they are trying to charge you for leaving the agreement (by my reckoning, based on your agreement, you could do so, without penalty, after the minimum term of 18 months) and as Kip has stated, they are implying you have purchased the goods.

 

Throw into the mix the mis-sold insurance, which will far outweigh what they are trying to claim on the POC - then I can't see you having much of a problem with your defence.

 

Try explaining to the court that you submitted your acknowledgment before seeking advice. Tell them you were confused/scared - whatever - but let them know that after having sought advice, you now wish to dispute the whole amount......

[Toffeewoman]

kiptower:

 

Yes they are - unless as I said, they've taken into account the fact they've billed me for the price of the whole machine, on top of those few months? And are now saying I bought it because they've charged it to me? That's why a) I need to find the letter, and b) I need a breakdown of how that charge is made up in the PoC. They had no intention of sending me a replacement - they were charging me a big price for the broke one I have. I think I wasn't clear or you misunderstood my previous post about that.

 

I can see a lot of sorting and rummaging going on in the next few days...! Urrrgh! Has to be done, though.

[kiptower]

just to clear a point it was a "HIRE AGREEMENT ONLY" not a HP agreement where the final payment is the option to buy

[clemma]

They cannot suddenly change the agreement from Hire Agreement to Hire Purchase......you were never, ever going to own the machine no matter how much you apid towards it. These are worse than Brighthouse (and I never thought I would find a company worse than them)!!!

 

EDIT - Yeah, just like kip said

[Toffeewoman]

Clemma - I'll give it a go with the court. I'm wondering if I fill out the hard copy paper and send that in, saying disputing all of it, with a cover letter explaining my IT incompetence/fear etc would they accept it?

 

I'm going to try it. Will send registered on Monday now. So enough time for someone to tell me not to if it's a bad idea!

 

Thanks again everyone - it's really touching to feel the tremendous support here. xx

 

Edit - yes Hire Agreement only, then they put that price on after I missed those few months payment. They're putting the boot in and punishing me for not paying. What better now than a default and CCJ for 6 years. Such schitz.

[clemma]

You can only try TW - the most the court can do is reject it. I would wait for someone more clued up to appear on here though.

 

I am doubtful that they will obtain a CCJ against you based on the POC's and your HIRE AGREEMENT - not purchase

[Toffeewoman]

Cheers, pink ears! (Fab avatar!)

 

Will do that. I think they were being spiteful when they added that on, in view of how much I've already paid. It's not like I broke the 18 month minimum hire period or anything... They seem to act like it's their own personal stuff you're stealing from them or something.

 

Screaming at Murray now so taking a break. Thanks again. Hope you get home soon!

 

Yet another edit: Just thinking that the Sale of Goods Act limitation thing could be why they've put a later start date of 2004?? They could be trying to sneak round it. A thought for later.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Toffeewoman

[clemma]

Am missing the match - have no idea what's happening (I know I could check the web.....but hey, that takes time). Will be leaving for home in next 30 mins

 

Keep us all informed

[Toffeewoman]

It's close. 2-1 sets to Roddick, 5-5 in the 4th, Murray serving 40 - 15 at the mo. Tense one.

 

6-5 Murray in the 4th now. Roddick to serve and they're having a little sit down!

Edited July 3, 2009 by Toffeewoman

[clemma]

Ah well.......he loses again

[Toffeewoman]

Better luck next year, hey.

 

Hope Federer anihilates Roddick in 3 sets and sends him crying back over the Atlantic. Not that I'm bitter or anything...

 

On Topic:

 

Had a look at Court Fees in case it's decided the best route is Counterclaiming. Looks like I'm entitled to full remission due to receiving JSA. So that doesn't seem to be an issue. Sorry I'm being a bit of an edit freak - I need to write stuff down as I come across it or I'll probably forget!

Edited July 3, 2009 by Toffeewoman
Addition to post

[kurvaface]

Where are you in terms of the data held about you with this company?

 

As part of the proceedural rules the enemy will have to disclose to you all the material they intend to use in court to support their claim. Clemma.... is a SAR appropriate to get one step ahead of them?

[clemma]

There is no need to do a SAR because Bryan Carter has started court proceedings - sending the CPR 31.14 request should provide all the information needed. BC hates these requests, so hopefully he will crawl back under his stone.

 

A S.A.R request can take 40 calendar days, which is too long. Time is of the essence, so the CPR must be submitted ASAP - they have to reply in time for the OP to submit a defence

[kurvaface]

Will toffee get the same info through the CPR 31.14 as a SAR?.

[clemma]

Toffee should get the following:

 

1 the agreement. (You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.)

 

2 the assignment*

 

3 the default notice*

 

4 the termination notice*

 

Plus any other documents that BC are relying on in court. A S.A.R will probably only add payment history and perhaps transcripts of phone calls. Unless these are going to be useful to the case, then it's not worth spending the £10. Also, it's highly unlikely the documents from the S.A.R would be received in time......

 

The case so far looks good anyway.

[kurvaface]

I agree:)

 

I'm just thinking about turning all stones:)

[clemma]

I know - and normally I would agree and say SAR them, but for now, best to save the pennies and see how BC responds.....

[Toffeewoman]

Hey again! I need to send off a CPR 31.14? This is the letter you pasted up on the previous page Clemma?

 

I'll have every letter they ever sent me somewhere here, I just need to go through stacks of stuff to find them. Also, most of them weren't read when they were supposed to have been. The only thing I won't have is any taped conversations/transcripts. I haven't spoken or replied to BCarter at all. They may have a few calls from boxclever last year though. But it's just as well because then I have stuff to check against in case they're trying to pull a fast one. It will be interesting to see a copy of my Agreement to compare... I found the notification of litigation proceedings, dated/postmarked the same day as the Claim issue date papers (25th June).

 

I need to get it prepared and go to my friend's to print it off. I can get this done by Monday afternoon and sent. Registered? Or should I post it here first so it can be checked I haven't screwed it up and then print & send? Probably better if I do that actually.

 

Also, I went back on the MCoL site and logged on. It has my AoS filled out for extra time so I can only print or save that, but the other stuff like part claim/dispute claim/counterclaim still have the 'start' buttons, and I can still access them. I'll ring the court on Monday and check this out.

 

Kerr-pOw! Fingers crossed..!

 

Sleep well, peeps and tyvm. I'll look in tomorrow when I've got the letter ready to post up.

[clemma]

Yep - the CPR 31.14 is the letter I posted up. Send it recorded delivery (maybe special delivery if you can afford it) then BC cannot deny receiving your request.

 

Keeping my fingers crossed for you here as well - hope it all goes well, and I will check back when you post again

[kurvaface]

Just a note of caution.... don't use your normal signature when you send in your letter.

 

The paranoid amongst us think they may be tempted to falsify an agreement with your signature on it:eek:

[Toffeewoman]

Thanks people. Yes, K, I read about that! I won't be signing anything!

 

Some good news. I got in touch with the Court, and they said when I send in the defence it will override the AoS where I ticked the part liable bit. I can send in a defence without any of it. So as you have advised, I'm going to defend all of it (mainly because his wording is all wrong on Particulars) and counterclaim for the mis-sold insurance.

 

I haven't sent off the CPR 31.14 yet as my friend wasn't home so I couldn't print it off. I've arranged to go tomorrow though, and will send it recorded/registered then. I'll post up when I've done it.

 

You guys are good - it must have a lot to do with the current financial state the world's in, but I've noticed there are so many new posts and people in difficulty every day, and you manage to get round to everyone. Big ups to you all!

[kurvaface]

The main thing is that you don't feel that you are being pushed around and bullied by these thugs.

 

Its nice to see you in control:)