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Toffeewoman

Boxclever vs Toffee

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Hello all

 

I've been a member for a while now and this is my first post. I've been a bit nervous about posting and try to find my own solutions from other cases, but I have a problem I desperately need help with.

 

I'm being taken to court by the solicitors of Boxclever. Due to various personal issues (including double-bereavement, redundancy & chronic depression), I let my mail build up into a mountain and have just opened the court letter yesterday. I got on line and asked for more time via the Acknowledgement of Service, and have stated I wish to contend the claim. I'm unsure whether to counterclaim as I think I was missold the insurance (implied I had to have it to rent the machine) but have time to decide that. I may have been too hasty out of fear, as I think I should have asked for the hearing to be in London - I'm never going to get to Northampton.

 

I rented a (reconditioned!) washer/drier in October 2001. I paid up around 23 pounds per month since then (including 3.30 insurance), up to June last year. I was made redundant, and had to cancel all my direct debits. The machine hadn't worked for about a year, and in September after a phonecalls from them, I told them to collect it as I couldn't afford it any more. I also told them I was unable to pay the last couple of months. I admit to 3 months rental owed. Before they were due to collect it, they called me to try to sell it to me for 30 (or fifty pounds, I can't remember). I said it didn't work, come and collect it. Anyway, this heap of junk is still sat in my kitchen. They've now put a charge on for a new machine (!!) And are after me for interest as well as costs, for a machine they didn't even want back! After 8 years they have the gall to do this. I'm scared and very angry.

 

Because I have other debts, this one was last on my list (now moved up because of Court). I didn't write to them but most of this took place on the phone before it was cut.

 

I need to know what I should do regarding my defence and if I have a leg to stand on. I was going to admit the 3 months which I technically do owe but counterclaiming for mis-sold insurance (about a grand) and again requesting they come and get the damn machine. I want the cost of a new machine taken off the bill too. Will I be liable for the costs now I've said on the AofS that I admit some of the debt? Can I counterclaim for the insurance? I have the original till receipt, Hire Agreement & Cert of Insurance from 2001 (I was given nothing else). And do I have to go to Court in order to defend this or can I do it in absentia? I'm stuffed if I have to go to Northampton.

 

Apologies for such a long post. I have other debts that need resolving too but am doing them one step at a time, the most urgent first. I know you are all really busy and thanks in advance for any advice you can give.

 

Toffee

 

PS Issue Date for Claim was 25th June 2009, so I think I have 3 weeks to prepare my defence and send it off.

 

ETA They say on the form "to goods sold between 10/03/04 to 9/3/9". This is wrong as it was HP for a start, and it began in 2001. Is this important? Total amount of claim is 372.50 pounds plus (80) costs.

Edited by Toffeewoman

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Hi Toffeewoman.

 

first...don't worry, you'll get good advice on here and bit by bit you'll get it sorted out.

 

second....what's the company? (edit doh...boxclever?)

 

third.....are you able to post up the "Agreement" you have with this company?

 

:)

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Hi kurvaface

 

Thanks so much for your reply. Can't post the copy of the agreement as I have no scanner. It's one they gave me at the shop when I signed up. Contains my personal details, equipment details, monthly hire cost plus domestic total cover. Total monthly payment 23.29. It was printed out on duplicate paper, my customer one being the undercopy. The reverse of this long bit of paper has the Hire Terms and Conditions in very pale & very small grey print.

 

Charges were payable in advance. Which they were until June, so Jul/Aug/Sept (when I asked them to come and get it) is what I think I do owe. It's so weird that they have the date on the Claim as three years after I began renting it. I've paid over two grand out over the years, and they're trying to charge me for a new machine. It wasn't even new when I hired it! It's funny, I remember the assistant saying 'sign your life away here' when she gave me the form to sign. She wasn't kidding!!

 

ETA Oh, and the receipt shows a 20 quid admin fee! For what? The assistant doing her job? Crazy. I must've been mad..

Edited by Toffeewoman
See ETA

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Hi Toffee,

 

So, in real terms, you have been leasing a washer dryer for 9 yrs at 23.29 a month!

 

Total cost of the item would be about £500 and you have paid about £2515 over the nine years?

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sorry just re read the first post!

 

It's a HP agreement and the item did not work!

 

I take it you had no idea of your rights here?

 

JOgs

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Hi havinastella

 

Sorry, maybe I've not been clear. It did work until about 18 months ago. I've just had loads of problems (not an excuse, just facts) so didn't call them to fix it as I didn't want anyone in the flat. I still paid up until I actually couldn't anymore due to redundancy.

 

I'm now getting a life and trying to sort out these outstanding debts.

 

And yes, I've paid through the nose like a twit for the damn thing, and they have the bloody nerve to charge for a new machine on top! When I rang them to collect it, they wouldn't give me an appointment till a month later so they could shove another charge on (they deliver quick when you sign up though). Then they called trying to get me to buy it for fifty quid a few days before they were due to collect it! My dad's funeral intervened and in the end I still have a broken heap of poo in my kitchen.

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I just wanted to add I've read the Court Claim Form again. It says under the Particulars of Claim:

 

The claimant's claim is for the price of goods sold and delivered by the claimant to the defendant.

 

Nothing has been sold to me and the Hire Agreement is from 2001. Is this just legalese that can cover rental, or is it simply wrong? They added the cost of the new machine to the o/s monies before it was sent to their solicitors/court. Could this be what they mean? That it has now turned into my property not paid for? I'm confused.

Edited by Toffeewoman
Didn't mean HP, meant rental & hire agreement. Amended.

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It would be really helpful if you could get the "Agreement" along with any terms and conditions for us to have a good look at. Do you have a digital camera or are you able to type them out?

 

Bottom line.... their case rests on this "Agreement" and if we can show it's bogus....:)

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OK, I have no way of copying it so I'll type it out. It consists of two pages, which are still stuck together at the top like from a very long A4 pad (that kind of glue stuff at the top) and they took their copy from the top.

 

My top customer copy is the Hire Agreement and the second page is the Certificate of Insurance which I was told I had to take out to hire the machine. No insurance, no machine. I also have a till receipt.

 

First page to follow..

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I bet you the insurance is not compulsary - I will have a look when you have copied the particulars on here. Boxclever are on a par with the likes of Brighthouse (whom I have had many dealings with ;)). If it has been mis-sold, you will be able to claim back on it.

 

As for the agreement, I will check that for you too........Boxclever sound like the kind of company I would love to take on :D


:)I am not an expert, but I can give good advice about Brighthouse:)

 

Am learning more and more about DCA's too :)

 

I have no legal experience and all advice given is based on the knowledge I've gained from this site.

 

<------If you think I have been helpful, please feel free to tip my scales - remember to put your CAG name though!

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Go for it clemma:D

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back @ the begining it was a rental / lease agreement, they fall flat in their claim "goods sold to"

 

you leased the item and they never delivered a new one as they claim

 

their claim is flawed from the start,

 

you need to put together a defence and make these points clear,


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My notes are in italics. I've bolded where they have. Font/s & sizes are not true as I can't adjust them here.

_____________________________________________________________

In Blue Margin left, preprinted & running down page:

 

boxclever

the new name for granada and radio rentals

 

This is a Rental Agreement between Home Technology Finance Ltd (Registered in England No 3702428 ) trading as boxclever, of Technology House, Ampthill Road, Bedford MD42 9QQ ("the company") and You ("the hirer") whereby it is agreed that the Company shall supply and the Hirer shall rent the Equipment specified in the Agreement Schedule on the terms shown therein and in accordance with the Rental Agreement terms and conditions overleaf.

 

AGREEMENT SCHEDULE

 

(a) Your hire charges are payable in advance, the first payment shall be made immediately upon your signature of this agreement and subsequent payments on the corresponding day in each month.

 

(b) Payments due on the 29th, 30th or 31st of each month shall be due on the last day of the month where there is no corresponding date.

 

© The total monthly payment may be varied at any time after the Minimum Hire Period on giving prior notice.

 

(d) The total monthly payment may be varied to reflect:

(i) any change effective subsequent to the signature of this Agreement resulting from the imposition or variation of any tax, statutory duty or levy at any time

(ii) any variation in VAT.

 

(e) If you terminate this Agreement within the Minimum Hire Period then you must pay the balance of sums due to the end of that period immediately.

 

______________________________________________________________

For those item(s) of equipment which I do not take out your EPP insurance. I agree to reimburse you with the full value of the equipment in the event of theft or accidental damage.

Signature (blank)

_______________________________________________________________

 

 

Hire Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974

_______________________________________________________________

 

Main body of agreement, printed from a machine in-store on white:

 

Account No: xxxxxxxxxxx Agreement No: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Del. Note xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Your Name & Address Installation Address

 

Toffeewoman

xxxxxxxx Road

xxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Tel No: xxxxxxxx (n/a now)

 

Equipment Details Payments

 

HOTWWD51 1100RPM WASHING DRYER 19.99

 

TOTAL MONTHLY HIRE 19.99

 

Cover:

DOMESTIC TOTAL COVER 3.30

 

TOTAL MONTHLY PAYMENT 23.29

 

 

 

Minimum Hire Period 18 months

Method of payment is Direct Debit Microfilm No(s) BL

 

_______________________________________________________________

 

Then three boxes:

YOUR DECLARATION

You should read this Agreement, the terms and conditions overleaf and this Declaration before signing, since by signing this application in the boxes opposite you:

(i) confirm that all details are true and complete that you are over 18 years of age and that we may verify particulars;

(ii) are aware that before granting credit we may search the files of one or more Credit Reference Agencies which will keep a record of our enquiry. We may also disclose details about the account and your conduct of it to the agency (or agencies). Information thus held is used only to help make credit decisions affecting your or members of your household or occasionally for fraud prevention or tracing debtors. Information about accounts may be shared confidentially within the boxclever Group of Companies. You confirm that you have been notified that we may disclose information to other selected companies and we and they may send you mailings about, or contact you by telephone, fax or email to discuss, products and services that may be of interest to you. Should you prefer not to receive such information you should tick this box (tiny box here not ticked);

iii) understand that the Company may, in its absolute discretion, subsequently offer you additional credit facilities such as a credit card. To enable you to take advantage of these facilities, you request that the Company send you (at any time during this Agreement) a credit card or any other credit token now or hereafter made available to you by the Company and;

iv) acknowledge that you hae considered the terms and conditions of this Agreement in particular the obligations and reponsibilities contained in clauses 2,3,4 and 6 of the Hire Terms and Conditions;**

v) acknowledge that if you are making a payment to the Company by the way of credit or charge card that the Company is authorised to effect both your initial payment and subsequent payments upon notification to you.

 

________________________________________________________________

 

This is a Hire Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Sign it only if you want to be legally bound by its terms.

 

Signature(s) of Hirer(s) Toffeewoman

 

Date(s) of Signature(s) Not dated

 

Under this agreement the goods do not become your property and you must not sell them.

_______________________________________________________________

 

Signed by boxclever Not legible but signed

 

Date of Signature 25/10/01

 

________________________________________________________________

 

Bottom tiny writing states: Home Technology Finance Limited is a member of the boxclever group

 

Number on form bottom right: FBC5002 (05/01) BL

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Finally, there is a dotted line under which is a Direct Debit Guarantee. I must have filled it out on the top copy which they retained.

 

 

**The parts referred to above of the T&Cs are overleaf of this top page in pale grey. It is all very small and the page is crowded with them. The headings of the particular ones quoted above are:

 

2 DELIVERY AND ACCEPTANCE

3 MAINTENANCE AND REPAIR

4 IF YOU HAVE A CLAIM

6 ARRANGEMENTS WITH THIRD PARTIES

 

________________________________________________________________

 

The second page, still 'glued on' to the above from the pad is the Certificate of Insurance underwritten by Cornhill. This is long, one-sided and very small font, covering 3 vertical columns of points. I can copy if needs be.

 

I can also copy out the back of the Agreement if I have to, or the body of the main points of 2,3,4 & 6 noted above.

 

Phew! Knackered now!

 

I can't see anything wrong with this, apart from the fact they made me take out the insurance or no rental. The way it is 'glued' from the pad seems to uphold this too; they go together. But maybe you can find something...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Toffeewoman
Typos

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______________________________________________________________

For those item(s) of equipment which I do not take out your EPP insurance. I agree to reimburse you with the full value of the equipment in the event of theft or accidental damage.

Signature (blank)

_______________________________________________________________

 

 

 

There is your proof that insurance is NOT compulsary ;)

 

You need to start claiming that back. Also, as this is clearly a HP agreement, the POC's on their claim form is incorrect by stating they have "sold" goods to you.

 

Will have another gander and see what else I can spot for you :)


:)I am not an expert, but I can give good advice about Brighthouse:)

 

Am learning more and more about DCA's too :)

 

I have no legal experience and all advice given is based on the knowledge I've gained from this site.

 

<------If you think I have been helpful, please feel free to tip my scales - remember to put your CAG name though!

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Thanks for all the responses guys! I didn't see them as my fingers were flashing over the keyboard!

 

Clemma, you sound particularly like you know that you're familiar with the like. Yes, they are like Brighthouse, except you don't buy off boxclever - unless of course, you try to get them to remove your goods, in which case they want to give it to you for 50 quid! A reconditioned, now useless machine, paid for in good faith for 8 years...

Edited by Toffeewoman

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Thanks so much! I feel better already. Should I make the potentially mis-sold insurance part of my defence? I typed that bit out and it didn't occur to me! I have a few weeks so I'm not panicking (much) about it yet. I need to look up the law on it. I don't know if I can put it as a counterclaim as part of this current case. If so, it will exceed what I think I owe them, but not what they think I owe.

 

I want to include that they need to come and collect the ruddy thing and remove that charge for a new one too.

 

ETA I don't know if it makes a difference (I spotted his name elsewhere on the forum) but the solicitors are Bryan Carter & Co Solicitors.

Edited by Toffeewoman
See ETA

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Yes!! Put it as part of your claim! You need to write to them as well - am busy at work, but you can find the link to the letters by going on

 

www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk

 

It's on one of the drop down menus (can't think which one, but you need to find library).

 

Will pop back later with more info.....


:)I am not an expert, but I can give good advice about Brighthouse:)

 

Am learning more and more about DCA's too :)

 

I have no legal experience and all advice given is based on the knowledge I've gained from this site.

 

<------If you think I have been helpful, please feel free to tip my scales - remember to put your CAG name though!

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Ah, Bryan Carter......fabulous.

 

Make sure you write to him as well (after writing to Boxclever about the mis-sold insurance) to tell him it's in dispute. BC is quick when it comes to gaining CCJ's, but is also easily beaten.

 

You need some advice from people who know better about the court process, but as you are only admitting part of the claim, they will transfer the case to your local county court. No one expects you to travel to Northampton.

 

In your defence you must state about the mis-sold insurance. Point out that you were told you could not have the goods without this. Then point out, that after re-reading your agreement, you spotted the little nugget I have highlighted in my previous post.

 

There is a letter you can send to BC asking for all information as he has starting proceedings, but for the life of me, I can't find it!!!

  • Haha 1

:)I am not an expert, but I can give good advice about Brighthouse:)

 

Am learning more and more about DCA's too :)

 

I have no legal experience and all advice given is based on the knowledge I've gained from this site.

 

<------If you think I have been helpful, please feel free to tip my scales - remember to put your CAG name though!

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Many, many thanks Clemma - you're a gem.

 

Don't let it get in the way of work! It's not urgent yet - I think I have around 3 weeks before my defence goes in.

 

Will check about and look at your link/search forum.

 

Thank you :)

 

Really appreciate everyone who's replied here.

 

ETA I just read your 13.12 post. Yes I think I may have seen the letter somewhere. Have been reading a lot and have lost where it was now! I'll find it but may need a break for a bit. Have been up all night looking for answers. It's not like I have to get the case done yet either - it's a bit nervewracking, eh.

 

Cheers - hope work goes easy on you!

Edited by Toffeewoman

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their claim is for goods sold , they didnt sell you anything it was a hire / lease, which they should have repaired when it broke down, now as its 8 years old, which would be seen as its service life, then the broken down goods leased have no value, I dont think you should be admitting to any part of the claim, because they say they delivered a new machine and didnt , they cant claim for it full stop, they have to prove you got the phantom new machine,

 

you might need better wording for your defence but this is a start for you

 

its clearly defined as "This is a Hire Agreement" not something you bought


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Aha, found it- if Mr Carter has began court proceedings then send him this letter :D - he hates people defending the claim. I would also speak to the court, as I would prefer it if you were to admit to NONE of the claim. I'm not sure if this can be changed or not.....but worth a try.

 

Dear Sir,

 

Re: (Claimant's name) v (Your name) Case No:

CPR 31.14 Request

 

On (date) I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the (Name) County Court.

 

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest all/part* of your claim. [delete whichever is not applicable]

 

[Prior to the issue of proceedings I had delivered a request for the production of the agreement mentioned in the Claim Form and on which you rely. That request was ignored][delete if no such request was delivered]

 

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of [each of the following / the] document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

 

1 the agreement. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.

 

2 the assignment*

 

3 the default notice*

 

4 the termination notice*

 

5 [any other documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim]*

 

* delete if not mentioned in the Particulars of claim.

 

[Although your claim is for a sum which is not more than £5,000.00 and will in all likelihood be allocated to the small claims track for determination upon my delivering a defence, at this moment in time I have not delivered my defence and the case has not been allocated to a track. In consequence the provisions of CPR 27(2) are of no effect and you should not seek to avoid compliance with your CPR 31 duties by claiming otherwise]#

 

# delete if claim for a sum exceeding £5,000.00

 

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

 

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

 

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

 

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.

 

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.

 

Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

 

I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you.

 

yours faithfully

 

Ignore the first one I posted

Edited by clemma
......coz I'm a bit stoopid....

:)I am not an expert, but I can give good advice about Brighthouse:)

 

Am learning more and more about DCA's too :)

 

I have no legal experience and all advice given is based on the knowledge I've gained from this site.

 

<------If you think I have been helpful, please feel free to tip my scales - remember to put your CAG name though!

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Can you also type up the POC's? Would be handy to see what Carter is claiming on the court forms ;)


:)I am not an expert, but I can give good advice about Brighthouse:)

 

Am learning more and more about DCA's too :)

 

I have no legal experience and all advice given is based on the knowledge I've gained from this site.

 

<------If you think I have been helpful, please feel free to tip my scales - remember to put your CAG name though!

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I rented a (reconditioned!) washer/drier in October 2001

 

Hi again.

 

Although not directly connected, I think if you get the time you should explore the issues around second hand goods. I know a few years ago with my business I had to register with trading standards to sell second hand goods. It may be something, it may not, but I think it could be worth checking where you stand.

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Thanks Kiptower, Clemma and Kurvaface! I got sidetracked with the tennis, whilst half-asleep. :-)

 

I don't think I can amend the fact I've said I admit part of it now - it seemed to be very clear on the website.

 

However, if I can prove that the life of a recon machine is not expected to be anything like 7 years, I will only admit to one month's rental. If not, I'll go for the 3 months admittance (69-ish quid), plus whatever costs they add on. They'll get a repayment offer of a quid a month. I don't want them to come up with proof that they did turn up when I was 200 miles away at the funeral (Sept). I'd just rather admit those months, even though I will counterclaim for the insurance and maybe more things, if I can get enough solid evidence together.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

POCs is as below:

 

The claimant's claim is for the price of goods sold and delivered by the claimant to the defendant.

 

Particulars

 

Claimant's A/C No. xxxxxxxx to goods sold between 10/03/2004 and 09/03/2009 and the claimant claims 363.96

 

The claimant also claims interest thereon pursuant to S.69 County Court Act 1984 limited to one year to the date hereof at the rate of 8% per annum amounting to 8.54

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

And that's it! All typed up in capital letters, but I didn't want to shout.

 

Several things are incorrect there, in orange. He's not mentioned rental, and the date range is 5 years to the day. In reality, it's Oct 01 - Oct 08 (in my eyes) and there is no breakdown of how the amount is made up. I have a letter that I can't find where they added the cost of a machine on. I have to find it! I don't know what the 8.54 means at all.

 

But your other points are taken. I've started to write it up in notepad. One thing I noticed is that I have to pay before I put in a counterclaim, so I need to find out how much that will be too.

 

Many thanks for the template, Clemma. I'll have a go at that later on.

 

The more I think about it, I think the expected life of a reconditioned machine may be key here. And I'll certainly look into that too Kurvaface. Very interesting indeed.

 

This is profiteering at best. These people are mercenaries.

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Thanks Kiptower, Clemma and Kurvaface! I got sidetracked with the tennis, whilst half-asleep. :-)

 

I don't think I can amend the fact I've said I admit part of it now - it seemed to be very clear on the website.

 

However, if I can prove that the life of a recon machine is not expected to be anything like 7 years, I will only admit to one month's rental. If not, I'll go for the 3 months admittance (69-ish quid), plus whatever costs they add on. They'll get a repayment offer of a quid a month. I don't want them to come up with proof that they did turn up when I was 200 miles away at the funeral (Sept). I'd just rather admit those months, even though I will counterclaim for the insurance and maybe more things, if I can get enough solid evidence together.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

POCs is as below:

 

The claimant's claim is for the price of goods sold and delivered by the claimant to the defendant.

 

Particulars

 

Claimant's A/C No. xxxxxxxx to goods sold between 10/03/2004 and 09/03/2009 and the claimant claims 363.96

 

The claimant also claims interest thereon pursuant to S.69 County Court Act 1984 limited to one year to the date hereof at the rate of 8% per annum amounting to 8.54

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

And that's it! All typed up in capital letters, but I didn't want to shout.

 

Several things are incorrect there, in orange. He's not mentioned rental, and the date range is 5 years to the day. In reality, it's Oct 01 - Oct 08 (in my eyes) and there is no breakdown of how the amount is made up. I have a letter that I can't find where they added the cost of a machine on. I have to find it! I don't know what the 8.54 means at all.

 

But your other points are taken. I've started to write it up in notepad. One thing I noticed is that I have to pay before I put in a counterclaim, so I need to find out how much that will be too.

 

Many thanks for the template, Clemma. I'll have a go at that later on.

 

The more I think about it, I think the expected life of a reconditioned machine may be key here. And I'll certainly look into that too Kurvaface. Very interesting indeed.

 

This is profiteering at best. These people are mercenaries.

 

 

We won't counterclaim, we will use an offset defence.

 

It's the same as a counterclaim, but without the cost.

 

I'll ask CCM to have a look into the thread closer to when we need the defence.

 

Jogs

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