RBS Ordinary Cause Citation - old Business Loan With Personal Guarantee

[George1958]

I'm looking for a wee bit of guidance, well really it's a huge bit of guidance with a large chunk of advice thrown in.

 

Around 2002 I started a business which was very suceesful very quickly, so much so that I merged operations with another company to form a new and rebranded company.

 

For the initial business I had a £15K overdraft facility which was occasionally dipped into for payroll, tax/NIC etc.

 

However, the bank allowed that overdraft to remain in place and extended it by £10K even when that business was no longer trading. I made it painfully clear to the RBS business adviser that the overdraft was being spent on the new company.

 

I complained at the time, and stated that I would like the overdraft in the name of the new company (which still trades), but I was verbally advised that the overdraft would not be allowed to be transferred as the new company is less than a year old.

 

The total overdraft is for £25K, but with charges it's now at £31K, I am paying it back under a debt management paln but I been arguing that the charges are unfair, and that the business adviser at the band issued bad advice. But RBS keep hiding behind the small print.

 

Is there any small print or other actions that I can use/deploy to help get these charges reduced?

 

Regards

 

G

[Enron]

You might want to look at this:

 

(deleted)

Edited July 3, 2009 by Enron

[yourbank]

won't allow access enron

[Enron]

I'll get someone to contact the original poster, must be a problem with the forum.

[George1958]

Good Afternoon Enron and Yourbank

 

I'm new to this forum and not sure if I'm reading things right.

 

Have I posted something incorrectly?

 

Regards

 

G

[Enron]

Nope, I posted a link that didnt work.

 

I've sent a PM to someone with business claims knowledge and asked them to get in touch with you.

[George1958]

Thanks Enron

 

Regards

 

G

[George1958]

Hi Enron

 

Any further news on the link that wasn't.

 

Regards

 

G

[johnnymitch]

Hi george

 

I complained at the time, and stated that I would like the overdraft in the name of the new company (which still trades), but I was verbally advised that the overdraft would not be allowed to be transferred as the new company is less than a year old.

 

If the new company is now over a year old and still trading profitably , what's to stop the O/D now being transferred .......... ?

Or , what's to stop them from defraying your overdraft from their funds ?

[George1958]

Good Evening Johnnymitch

 

Thanks for your post.

 

Sorry I haven't replied earlier, but I've been in the very wet and windswept north of Scotland.

 

My original "business adviser" at the RBS said it wouldn't be a problem to transfer the o/d to the new company. He ended up being kicked out of RBS and joined HBoS. I suppose that says it all really.

 

A new young whipper-snapper came in, I think he was aged about 22, and said that the o/d could not be transferred. That statement lead to an awful lot conversations and in the end RBS said I would need to take a secured loan to clear the o/d.

 

My answer to that was something like "as long as my extremely fat posterior points down the way I will not be taking out a secured loan".

 

At the end of the day I know I spent money that belonged to the bank, and I have every intention of paying it back, however there is over £7K interest charges applied, and it's these charges I'm not very happy about.

 

JM could you explain "defraying", I'm a very good engineer and hit things with hammers (maybe that would have worked on the business adviser) but your statement has lost me bit, well more than a bit.

 

Thanks again for taking the time to reply

 

Regards

 

G

[George1958]

Good evening

 

All was going well, or so I thought until I took a call in the late afternoon from solicitors in Edinburgh. I live and work in Scotland.

 

It seems they went to court to raise proceedings against me, and that sherrif officers will be serving the papers as soon as possible. I still have to get that legal bit right in my head.

 

This has been raised over a business overdraft from the bank that Fred the Shred used to run, I signed a personal guarantee for that overdraft, the total amount including charges is almost £31K.

 

The reason for me thinking that all was going well, was the fact that I pay CCCS over £500 per month in a Debt Management Plan to pay my creditors (there are only two) and of this amount over £400 is paid to the bank for repayment of the overdraft. This Debt Management Plan is now in month 4 or 5, I can't remember exactly at the moment.

 

I tried phoning the CCCS for advice also, but they closed at 6 pm.

 

What can I do, or what should I be doing??

 

Kind regards

 

G

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello G!

 

Firstly, keep off the Telephone, as it is very hard to keep a track of what is said, and then build it into your Defence.

 

If someone uses the Phone, it will be because they want to put pressure on you in a very unaccountable way.

 

They may not be Solicitors, as many DCAs pretend they are, just because they have one or two tame Lawyers working for them.

 

I'm not familiar with the Scottish System, but it sounds like they have started a Claim. The Court should send you details of that soon, if not, call the Court ASAP, and ask if they know about any of this.

 

If a Claim arrives, then we can take things from there.

 

The key to understand is the Phone call was designed to spook you. Not yet clear why, but most Lawyers tend to just send the papers, they don't usually call to have a toot as they do so. Something odd about that I feel.

 

The best you can do now is wait to see what turns up, and chase the Court if you want to find out sooner.

 

Beware of DCA tricks, as this all sounds a bit fishy. It could just be a DCA trying to load some pressure on you, for a reason that may become clear when they make their next move.

 

One thing I can say, is the Scottish System comes across as being a bit old fashioned, but has many benefits. From what I know of it, it tends to be more plodding and methodical, and there are key steps that have to be followed on the way to the full Court hearing. Papers and legal points have to be raised well ahead, so this can work in your favour.

 

Keep us all posted, and I'm sure you'll get all the help needed.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[George1958]

Good evening BRW

 

Thanks for your reply, it was good to read your post.

 

At the moment I feel as though I'm doing all I can do, but need to involve the CCCS first thing tomorrow.

 

I honestly can't believe the deep doo-doo I'm in, and basically all because of misplaced trust in a former business partner.

 

The solicitors have said they have written to me two weeks ago, but I haven't received that letter, so I asked for a copy which they say they are going to send on.

 

Now that the juices are flowing the solicitor also said that they had enclosed a "means" form for income and expenditure, that's what I went through with CCCS to come up with over £400/month repayment to the bank.

 

I'll take your advice and contact the court, although I've a feeling the Sherriff will get me first.

 

Where can I buy some really cheap lucky white heather?

 

Regards

 

g

[George1958]

Evening All

 

There is enough information in my threads for the financial institution to identify me, but that couldn't be helped as I needed to get as much information onto my thread as possible so fellow caggers could offer advice and support.

 

Why is it almost everytime I look at my thread there is also a guest viewing?

 

I know it seems I am getting paranoid about it all, but honestly I couldn't give a jott, if there are snoopers then they obviously have a job to do, probably a job others don't want to do.

 

Later I will be attaching a letter I am intending to send to the institution, hopefully someone can peruse it, and give me go/nogo advices?

 

Keep well and strong fellow caggers

 

Regards

 

G

[maroondevo52]

No guests on it now George

[havinastella]

George, even if it went to Court, any SANE Judge would not expect you to pay more than the £400 a month you are already paying.

[George1958]

Many thanks for the replies "MaroonDevo" and "Havingastella"

 

This is the first I've been able to log back on to CAG due to work and family illnesses, not swine flu as I have a special oink-ment for that!!

 

Anyway, as just stated Ive logged on and there's the guest viewing, suppose that's what we get in a free country.

 

Getting back to my oringinal bombshell things have moved up a gear,I've drafted a letter to send on to the solicitors and the text is below.

 

Is someone able to take a look at the text and tell me if I'm just making a rod for my own back, I really don't want to ignore the solicitors, but i don't want to appear thick either.

 

In a weird way Im looking forward to it going to court, and just finding out how they are going to get blood from a stone.

 

I have no assets, no cash in the bank, and the house is in negative equity.

 

Lucky white heather anyone??

 

Dear Sir

Thank you for you letter dated 30 July 2009 which I received today, Monday 03 August 2009, the content of the letter is acknowledged and I now find it necessary to seek further advices.

My recent discussion with your XXXX XXXXXXXX can be left for later, however my disappointment remains as I requested details about your complaints procedure to be forwarded to me.

Please be aware I have written to your client on 06 July 2009 stating that the account is in dispute for the following summary of reasons.

1) In my opinion the manner in which the overdraft was managed by your client did not protect my interests.

2) In my opinion the charges applied to the account can be deemed to be disproportionate and unfair.

3) Clarification on the word “underhand” verbally used by one of the recent business managers to describe the methods of the business manager who provided the overdraft facilities.

I have also written to your client on 30 July 2009 requiring them to comply with my request as stated in the previous letter, and reminding them that since the account is in dispute they are not permitted to take any action against that account, that also includes any actions that affect my credit rating, and passing the account to a third party.

Further, I have a Debt Management Plan to repay this overdraft which is administered by the Consumer Credit Counselling Service (CCCS). The current monthly repayment is over £400.

It is my right to withhold payment whilst the account remains in dispute, however at present I have every intention of continuing to make repayment.

By entering into a Debt Management Plan administered by the CCCS, I am of the opinion that I am showing myself willing to make repayment. These repayments are causing financial hardship and stress in my domestic situation, but repayments via the CCCS will continue.

Finally, please ensure that all correspondence is made via mail to my above address, any attempt to communicate by any other medium will be recorded and logged.

Yours faithfully,

 

XXXX XXXXXXXX

[seriously fed up]

I cant see it doing any harm George.

But going back to BRW's post, I would absolutely agree with him that the whole thing is a bit fishy and designed to put you on edge. Besides the factors that BRW has identified - solicitors dont usually phone for instance - I think its odd that they would say the Sheriff Officers were going to serve Court papers. Sheriff Officers dont serve Court papers - one day there will be a ring at your door and the postman will be standing there with them, waiting for a signature. Or at least that is my understanding |(and experience).

Of course Sheriff Officers would be bad news IF the case had gone through court and an order made against you. But even then as Havinastella points out, a Court would take a measured view of your ability to pay. But Sheriff Officers is a buzz word that suppresses our critical faculties and we just respond emotionally (ie we c**p ourselves).

This sounds like what happened to me with Amex just over a year ago. The guy even admitted that he was from a DCA, but it was the bit about "your card is being actioned tomorrow". Now I would just tell him to go away and behave himself, but then - not knowing anything at all - I had visions of Sheriff Officers backed by battalions of police, marching up the garden path the next day. Complete rubbish of course - but it got me to pay up on an account that Amex hadnt even bothered to sign the agreement for too!

As I have said elsewhere - remember this isnt about right/wrong or legal or not, its about bringing money in as best they can.

One other thing - check out the solicitors on google or somewhere and see what comes up. You might just learn something.

Good luck:smile:

[George1958]

Dear All

 

I'm now back on line after being tied up elswhere, but was still able to deal with the solicitor via letter. However I'm now tempting fate by saying things have went a bit quiet on the solicitor front.

 

It may be because I responded in the same terse language used in their letters asking them to remind their client of obligations they have under the CCA and the DPA.

 

But, in my most pessimistic of moods I think they are just sharpening bayonets ready for the order to charge.

 

But then again, in my most optimistic of moods I've blunted their bayonets once, so I'm quite sure I can do it again. Willpower, it's all down to willpower (and a good dose of support from CAG).

 

Again, sorry for being off line for so long.

 

Regards

 

G

[George1958]

Good afternoon

 

Is there anywhere I can buy, borrow or peruse over the web procedures which will offer guidance as both Pursuer and Defender?

 

Or even if there are some threads I can sub to, that would be very much appreciated.

 

Regards

 

G

[IdaInFife]

can you say what type of acton?

 

ida x

[IdaInFife]

Hiya,

 

Are you saying you sent a cca request for the overdraft?

 

if so then it won't do much good as overdrafts are exempt

 

 

ida x

[George1958]

can you say what type of acton?

 

ida x

 

Hi Ida

 

Thanks for posting a reply.

 

All I want is something tangible I can refer to to.

 

I have debts owing to two creditors, both debts are covered by a debt management plan (dmp) administered by the CCCS, which is by the way a marvellous orgainisation.

 

Both creditors have rejected the dmp, as they want a bit more, not much but still more, the CCCS have stuck by the original dmp.

 

The creditor I owe the largest debt to sent some solicitors after me, and threatened court action if I dont respond, I responded telling them about my dispute with the creditor and about the dmp administered by the CCCS. They used the words "to apply to the court for decree for payment against you"

 

But to get to the core of the matter, I'm sick of being on the back foot all the time, and want to be pro-active instead of reactive.

 

Bascally I have one creditor I would like to take to court, and one who is intent on taking me to court.

 

Regards

 

G

[George1958]

Good afternoon IDA

 

All I tried to do was to fend off their approaches, I could inject a bit of drama and say to fend off their attacks.

 

I had guessed that overdrafts would be exempt from a credit agreement request, and I have a suspicion that businesses may be exempt from the Consumer Credit Act (CCA) as well, however since the bank is recovering sums due in respect to a Guarantee Obligation, I am of the opinion that makes me a consumer now with rights under the CCA and the DPA, that is the main thrust of my argument.

 

Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree, but it certainly quietened things down.

 

Regards

 

G

[mkb]

Have you actually received any court papers yet?

 

If not, then I would be tempted to just carry on as you are with your DMP & ignore any further communications from this solicitor/dca.

 

End of the day, you are paying what you can (& it's not a sum that most of us on here could make!) and any judge would see that.