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    • Ok thanks guys for all the help & advice I think I will go the DRO option but will open a new bank account somewhere else first etc.  The only other things im little worried about is reading on the DRO it says about I wont be able to apply for credit but what about things like my car insurance as thats classed as credit paying it monthly Plus they say i must not have assets or car worth over £1,000 so what about things like my car worth around 2.5k and as said before when my father passed away he left me his camper that I cant part with its worth about 4k and what about things in house and jewellery etc ?? Can they come to house and check and so on
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can someone please take a look at this and let me know if it is enforceable. One is mine the other is the OHs. thank you.

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The second one is illegible, and it has a stamp across the prescribed terms - on that basis it could be unenforceable.....

 

The first one is also a bad copy, but I'm not entirely sure about its enforceability to be honest as I don't know if the T&C's were part of the original agreement.


:)I am not an expert, but I can give good advice about Brighthouse:)

 

Am learning more and more about DCA's too :)

 

I have no legal experience and all advice given is based on the knowledge I've gained from this site.

 

<------If you think I have been helpful, please feel free to tip my scales - remember to put your CAG name though!

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Hi clemma, thank you for the quick response, the copies that have been posted are as good as the ones sent to us, should I request better copies from them, has this been done deliberatly by them, it makes you wonder, and if I did put in for better copies would it be better copies that I recieve ??

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You won't get better copies.....you can send them the following if you want (you may need to jiggle it about a bit) as it mentions the legibility of documents:

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

xx/xx/2009

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

 

Thank you for your letter-dated xx/xx/2009 the contents of which are noted.

 

I note that you have included a copy of the document, which you aver to be the copy of the credit agreement between us

 

Now I wish to draw your attention to a series of concerns that I have with that document and why I feel that you have not discharged your duties under Section 78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

The document received is headed “xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxwithin this first there are no prescribed terms as required by schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit Agreements Regulations 1983 SI 1983/1553.

 

To avoid any argument, the prescribed terms for this style of agreement (running account credit) are as follows

 

1. A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit,

 

2. A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement

 

3. A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following--

1.Number of repayments;

2.Amount of repayments;

3.Frequency and timing of repayments;

4.Dates of repayments;

5.The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable

 

 

Now im sure you are aware as per Wilson & FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 among others that if the prescribed terms are not in the agreement then the agreement is rendered unenforceable

 

 

To be honest I cannot tell as its not legible, infact even when blown up on the pc it is not legible and as a consequence I believe that the document fails to comply with Regulation 2 of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557)

 

For your information, I reproduce regulation 2(1) for your reference

 

 

2 Legibility of notices and copy documents and wording of prescribed Forms

 

(1)The lettering in every notice in a Form prescribed by these Regulations and in every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall, apart from any signature, be easily legible and of a colour which is readily distinguishable from the .

 

Clearly as the document you have supplied is not easily legible you cannot say that you have discharged your obligations under section 78(1) as the document does not comply with the copy document regs referred to above

Now to quote your own words from paragraph 3 of your letter “this means in effect as long as the terms are clearly shown, the CCA requirements are satisfied” well im sorry but they are not as the second part of this document that you supplied in reply to my CCA request is not clearly legible

 

Now to resolve this matter you can either supply me a copy of my agreement, which is in a legible form where all the terms are clearly stated and the prescribed terms are embodied within the agreement

 

Or alternatively, we can lay the agreement which you have produced in reply to my statutory request pursuant to section 78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 before the county court and I will request pursuant to section 142(1) of the CCA that the court make an order on the enforceability of that document.

 

However I am sure that the bank would not be keen on this happening as should the court rule that the agreement is not enforceable and you cannot provide a better copy than what you already have then the court would have no other option but to rule the agreement unenforceable

 

I think I have set out my position clearly and have even reproduced excerpts of the legislation on which I base my case, therefore I respectfully request that you reply to this letter within 14 days setting out if you can supply a more legible copy of the agreement or what action you propose to resolve this dispute if you cannot although the only real obvious option if you cannot provide a better copy would be for the bank to zero the balance on this debt as it cannot be enforced without a truly legible signed credit agreement containing the required prescribed terms

 

 

I await your reply


:)I am not an expert, but I can give good advice about Brighthouse:)

 

Am learning more and more about DCA's too :)

 

I have no legal experience and all advice given is based on the knowledge I've gained from this site.

 

<------If you think I have been helpful, please feel free to tip my scales - remember to put your CAG name though!

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Hi Carpinjoy,

 

Agree with Clemma on number 1, illegible and t&c all over the place, think they'll have a tough time with this one. Unenforceable.

 

Second one appears to be a single page but cut and then microfiched seperately, it does have the prescribed terms so I would say enforceable if they can prove it was all from one sheet.. thing that stands out to me is the squiggle from the signature on top right, this goes over onto top left of second page microfiche. I would say enforceable.

 

BUT then again these are both Microfiche copies and have come from some offsite archive firm so if a judge was so minded and stuck to the CPR rules on claims brought on agreements requiring the originals they could be on a sticky wicket :-D

 

S.


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That was my thought on the second one, as my OH new it was Microfiche doc as she used them in her line of work many moons ago, I was under the train of thought that an original had to be produced in court not a copy of any decription would be acceptable. Am I wrong on this issue.

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That was my thought on the second one, as my OH new it was Microfiche doc as she used them in her line of work many moons ago, I was under the train of thought that an original had to be produced in court not a copy of any decription would be acceptable. Am I wrong on this issue.

 

Nope, your correct :D


:)I am not an expert, but I can give good advice about Brighthouse:)

 

Am learning more and more about DCA's too :)

 

I have no legal experience and all advice given is based on the knowledge I've gained from this site.

 

<------If you think I have been helpful, please feel free to tip my scales - remember to put your CAG name though!

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Nope, your correct :D

 

Err nope sorry I disagree. They can bring in microfiche's fag packets, whatever they want its up to the judges discretion. In small claims the CPR rules of evidence do not apply.

 

This thread explains more and how to counter microfiche and other "copies"

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/162535-documents-court-civil-evidence.html

 

S.


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Deal with your debts:

STEP ONE - Dont Panic! | STEP TWO - Priority & Non Priority Debts | STEP THREE - Personal Budget Sheet | STEP FOUR - A SAFE bank Account | STEP FIVE - Dealing with Priority Debts | STEP SIX - Non-priority Debts | STEP SEVEN - Non-Priority Debt-Repayment Opt1 | STEP EIGHT - Non-Priority Debt-Repayment Opt2 | STEP NINE - Perils of Consolidation | STEP TEN - RE-Evaluate Frequently

 

***** SERIOUSLY IN DEBT, DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO, TRY NationalDebtLine's MoneySteps *****

 

 

IMPORTANT: Please take my advice in the spirit it is given and on the basis that I am expressing my opinion, These opinions are not endorsed by CAG in anyway and are offered informally without prejudice or warranty of any kind. These opinions are solely based upon the knowledge I've gained from this fantastic site and life in general. I have NO legal training.

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I was going to elaborate, but didn't have time due to work and had to leave CAG quickly :D

 

I guess you just have to hope you have a spot-on Judge who demands the original.


:)I am not an expert, but I can give good advice about Brighthouse:)

 

Am learning more and more about DCA's too :)

 

I have no legal experience and all advice given is based on the knowledge I've gained from this site.

 

<------If you think I have been helpful, please feel free to tip my scales - remember to put your CAG name though!

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I was going to elaborate, but didn't have time due to work and had to leave CAG quickly :D

 

I guess you just have to hope you have a spot-on Judge who demands the original.

 

Yep agree 100% there, that or have someone to represent you at the hearing.

 

S.


Are You as Anonymous on CAG as You Think You Are? *Link*

 

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Deal with your debts:

STEP ONE - Dont Panic! | STEP TWO - Priority & Non Priority Debts | STEP THREE - Personal Budget Sheet | STEP FOUR - A SAFE bank Account | STEP FIVE - Dealing with Priority Debts | STEP SIX - Non-priority Debts | STEP SEVEN - Non-Priority Debt-Repayment Opt1 | STEP EIGHT - Non-Priority Debt-Repayment Opt2 | STEP NINE - Perils of Consolidation | STEP TEN - RE-Evaluate Frequently

 

***** SERIOUSLY IN DEBT, DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO, TRY NationalDebtLine's MoneySteps *****

 

 

IMPORTANT: Please take my advice in the spirit it is given and on the basis that I am expressing my opinion, These opinions are not endorsed by CAG in anyway and are offered informally without prejudice or warranty of any kind. These opinions are solely based upon the knowledge I've gained from this fantastic site and life in general. I have NO legal training.

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What is the point of having it in front of a judge if he does not follow there own rules, and decides to do what HE wants just to get it out of his court, or even worse likes banks, if the judgement call is open to his or hers interprtaion of the law.

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What is the point of having it in front of a judge if he does not follow there own rules, and decides to do what HE wants just to get it out of his court, or even worse likes banks, if the judgement call is open to his or hers interprtaion of the law.

 

Welcome to what on this site is referred to as the "Judge Lottery"

 

:-(

 

S.


Are You as Anonymous on CAG as You Think You Are? *Link*

 

The CAG is a free help site,should you be offered help that requires payment,please report it to site team.

 

Deal with your debts:

STEP ONE - Dont Panic! | STEP TWO - Priority & Non Priority Debts | STEP THREE - Personal Budget Sheet | STEP FOUR - A SAFE bank Account | STEP FIVE - Dealing with Priority Debts | STEP SIX - Non-priority Debts | STEP SEVEN - Non-Priority Debt-Repayment Opt1 | STEP EIGHT - Non-Priority Debt-Repayment Opt2 | STEP NINE - Perils of Consolidation | STEP TEN - RE-Evaluate Frequently

 

***** SERIOUSLY IN DEBT, DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO, TRY NationalDebtLine's MoneySteps *****

 

 

IMPORTANT: Please take my advice in the spirit it is given and on the basis that I am expressing my opinion, These opinions are not endorsed by CAG in anyway and are offered informally without prejudice or warranty of any kind. These opinions are solely based upon the knowledge I've gained from this fantastic site and life in general. I have NO legal training.

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I have married up the peices of paper and they do seem to come from the one document, the squiggle does fit, so I might be on a sticky wicket with that one, I dont understand what is wrong with the other one as it does have ts/cs so why unenforcable.

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Here is the latest from YB, please take a look, any feed back would be helpfull. Thankyou. n.b THEY STATE THEY HAVE NOW COMPLIED WITH ALL THAT IS REQUIRED.

LATEST YB.pdf

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Can someone please have a look at what Y.B. have sent on post 15, as i will need to respond soon as the phone calls have started again. Thanks

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Hi Carpinjoy...

 

First page is the application, looks a bad copy, can you make out anything on there that states see terms overleaf?

 

The second and third page look to be front and back of a t&c leaflet, they appear to be from around the same timescale, notice the /97 ref on the bottom second page.

 

Reading the top of the page of the application it states that this application should be read in conjunction with the terms and conditions leaflet also supplied.... so no prescibed terms on the actual agreement that you signed then. The prescribed terms cannot be referenced they actually have to be in the signature doc... unenforceable in my opinion.

 

S.


Are You as Anonymous on CAG as You Think You Are? *Link*

 

The CAG is a free help site,should you be offered help that requires payment,please report it to site team.

 

Deal with your debts:

STEP ONE - Dont Panic! | STEP TWO - Priority & Non Priority Debts | STEP THREE - Personal Budget Sheet | STEP FOUR - A SAFE bank Account | STEP FIVE - Dealing with Priority Debts | STEP SIX - Non-priority Debts | STEP SEVEN - Non-Priority Debt-Repayment Opt1 | STEP EIGHT - Non-Priority Debt-Repayment Opt2 | STEP NINE - Perils of Consolidation | STEP TEN - RE-Evaluate Frequently

 

***** SERIOUSLY IN DEBT, DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO, TRY NationalDebtLine's MoneySteps *****

 

 

IMPORTANT: Please take my advice in the spirit it is given and on the basis that I am expressing my opinion, These opinions are not endorsed by CAG in anyway and are offered informally without prejudice or warranty of any kind. These opinions are solely based upon the knowledge I've gained from this fantastic site and life in general. I have NO legal training.

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Very well done Shadow, you have come to my rescue once again, absolutley brill, I can now get stuck into them. They have been giving me and my partner grief for a while, I put in for a hardship case for charges and we have been given the run around ever since. Many many thanks S.

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I got some money back on the hardship case £150 you can view this on the other thread.

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As those of you who have been following this thread will know, i am in deep kaka, got the CAB involved with all my issues, they sent letters out to all creditors. The CAB recieved a letter from YB stating that they sold my cc debt on early Oct, thing is they have not sold on my partners cc debt. I think they have sussed that mine was unenforceable, where my partners unfortuneatly is. Also i have not heard anything from the mob that YB have sold it on to as yet. I did not do anything regards the unenforceable one as yet as i have to much happening with the others, when the DCA (i presume it is a DCA) try to give me hassle then i will dispute its legitamacy.

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Update, Y.B have sold both my normal accont which is in an overdraft ( if all my fees were returned would have been cleared) and my C/C account to Marlin financial services. My questions are firstly, since the C/C was never put into dispute, is there any reason why it cannot be put in dispute now, as we have looked at it on this site and we are quite sure they would have serious trouble with it, secondly i have been paying the normal account a token payment for a while now and this Marlin mob have stated that they are aware that a payment plan is in place on this account. Therefore should i phone them as they have tried to phone me, i did not acknowledge the call as i did not know the number, the call was before i recieved the two letters this morning. To recap, on the normal account, that is the account that i put in for the refund of all charges on hardship grounds, and was paid less than 5%. Any comments most wecome. Reading through some other threads, it looks like i now claim my charges direct from the losers who bought the account (silly people, imagine not checking first). So do i have to start again with the court route.

Edited by carpinjoy

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Any thoughts guys and girls.

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Hi Carp,

 

This thread should be used solely to discuss one a/c - any more and the issues become confused.

 

Use this for the YB Credit Card and start a new thread for the YB current a/c. You must also have separate threads for your own and your partners cases.

 

Have you identified and reclaimed all penalty charges on this credit card a/c. Have YB refunded in full or not.


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