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The Consumer Credit Act.....clarity required?

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There is an aspect of the Consumer Credit Act that I would like some clarity on.

 

It is clear that in the absence of a signed copy of the executed credit agreement any debt is unenforceable. How can any creditor pass a debt to any DCA/agent until they have supplied that................surely that action is a clear breach of the CCA......since the act states the following :

 

2 UNFAIR BUSINESS PRACTICES

Communication

2.1 It is unfair to communicate, in whatever form, with consumers in an unclear, inaccurate or misleading manner.

 

2.2 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

b. leaving out or presenting information in such a way that it creates a false or misleading impression or exploits debtors' lack of knowledge

 

False representation of authority and/or legal position

 

2.3 Those contacting debtors must not be deceitful by misrepresenting their authority and/or the correct legal position.

 

2.4 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

b. falsely implying or stating that action can or will be taken when it legally cannot

Deceptive and/or unfair methods

Psychological harassment

2.5 Putting pressure on debtors or third parties is considered to be oppressive.

d. not ensuring that an adequate history of the debt is passed on as appropriate resulting in repetitive and/or frequent contact by different parties

 

................surely it is not the duty or responsability of any debtor to point out the law to a creditor. They have a licence and therefore a clear responsability to uphold the CCA. With this in mind any debtor who receives such comunications is comletley with in their right not to respond and to complain about it. That complaint is evidence of a dispute, it is not enough for the DCA/agent to say that they were unaware of this breach, they should have ensured they had the right to pursue the debt.

 

............thoughts please?............:cool:krj8

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If any creditor or dca passes an account on to another dca send the new dca the bemused letter they must pass it back if they do not report them and also report the oc or dca whom are in default or recepit of your cca.

Edited by dcakiller
I must learn to type

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I agree with dcakiller - if this happens, then send the bemused letter. It usually does the trick.


:)I am not an expert, but I can give good advice about Brighthouse:)

 

Am learning more and more about DCA's too :)

 

I have no legal experience and all advice given is based on the knowledge I've gained from this site.

 

<------If you think I have been helpful, please feel free to tip my scales - remember to put your CAG name though!

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Hi dcakiller......thanks....i love the name, by the way.

 

I'm completey amazed that any creditor would even bother pursuing any debt without the CCA document...........surely it must be a legal requirement?

krj8:D

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Nothing amazes me when it comes to dca's they will try every trick and underhand tactic they can think of .

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Nothing amazes me when it comes to dca's they will try every trick and underhand tactic they can think of .

 

 

i agree but it is all so utterly pointless..........unless of course they are finding that they get away with it more often than not.......

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They are just under the presumption that you do not know your rights - but after finding CAG you will know much more about the CCA than they do ;)


:)I am not an expert, but I can give good advice about Brighthouse:)

 

Am learning more and more about DCA's too :)

 

I have no legal experience and all advice given is based on the knowledge I've gained from this site.

 

<------If you think I have been helpful, please feel free to tip my scales - remember to put your CAG name though!

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As I have said in posts before we need to start puting presure on our mp's after all they are our servants and make them put presure on the oft,ico to do ther jobs, Believe me it can be very effective if say 12 pepole turn up at an mp's surgery and peacefully but foceably insist something is done the more of us that do this the better.

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As I have said in posts before we need to start puting presure on our mp's after all they are our servants and make them put presure on the oft,ico to do ther jobs, Believe me it can be very effective if say 12 pepole turn up at an mp's surgery and peacefully but foceably insist something is done the more of us that do this the better.

 

 

I agree, and recently I posted a new thread with regard to starting a campaing on CAG to try to ensure that creditors must supply a copy of the signed executed credit agreement at the time that any account goes into default, they should also have to supply a leaflet like the FOS one supplied when a complaint is made........I'm fairly new to CAG and don't know how to direct you to that thread.......can you help mw ith that?:rolleyes:krj8

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I had this email from trading standards - who are very interested in the whole CCA circus. I suggest anyone with CCA issues should contact their local Trading Standards

 

From the guidance we discussed yesterday there are two basic points that I would like to bring to your attention. The first relates to the term 'true copy' .

The copy of the executed agreement need not be an exact copy but it must be a ‘true copy’ and not some reconstruction of what the original might have been and it must contain the same terms as the original. Where the terms have been varied as provided for within the agreement, the copy of the original agreement must be accompanied by a document setting out the current terms, as varied. Certain details may be omitted from the original agreement e.g. the signature but the debtor must be in no doubt as to the true nature of his obligations under the loan

 

It may be that the copy you have been provided with can be a true copy, the changes in the charges that we discussed may still have the same terms. I do understand that the agreement they have sent you is today's agreement and not one of when you signed in 2004. The correct process as I understand it should be that a document the same as you signed should be sent to you, and any amendments that have been made (such as changes in charges) should be sent in a separate document. I will clarify this situation and let you know what the outcome is.

 

The second point relates to the date of the agreement and if the agreement is then enforceable.

 

The consequence of the debtor not having signed a credit agreement with the creditor is that the agreement is unenforceable except where the court orders that enforcement may take place. Where the agreement was made before 6th April 2007 the court is not able to make such an order unless the agreement was signed by the debtor.

 

Your agreement was signed in 2004, and therefore before April 2007, and at first reading it appears that if the company can not produce a signed copy of the agreement then they can not get a court to enforce against the agreement. As the company have supplied a signature box, I think this would all hinge on the production of a true copy, so we could be back to your original point. I will seek clarification on these two points and see if is any case law that upholds this guidance. As we discussed it would be down to the courts to decide if this is relevant as they would look to the legislation and any precedent of case law.

 

I will e-mail you as soon as I have a clearer picture of the status of the documents you have been sent, and if the date of the agreement means that they have to shown a signed copy. I will also out line what this service can do, and if it is not us who can proceed then who the correct authority is.

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I agree, and recently I posted a new thread with regard to starting a campaing on CAG to try to ensure that creditors must supply a copy of the signed executed credit agreement at the time that any account goes into default, they should also have to supply a leaflet like the FOS one supplied when a complaint is made........I'm fairly new to CAG and don't know how to direct you to that thread.......can you help mw ith that?:rolleyes:krj8

 

Good idea as I say one of the best ways would be for everyone on the cag to go and see there mp and take along loads of freinds suporters as they can muster and peacefuly but foceably making your point and leaving your mp in no dout that you will not be fobed off. Remenber the saying people should not fear there goverment the goverment should fear the people , they are our servants

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Good idea as I say one of the best ways would be for everyone on the cag to go and see there mp and take along loads of freinds suporters as they can muster and peacefuly but foceably making your point and leaving your mp in no dout that you will not be fobed off. Remenber the saying people should not fear there goverment the goverment should fear the people , they are our servants

 

 

I wonder if it would be possible to get together, transcripts of all threads on the CAG site, compile them and send them to Downing St. or some such thing...................I will most certainly, in the fullness of time, be contacting my MP about my case in any event. :Dkrj8

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when complaining please also include your trading standards - they can only take action forward if there are enough complaints to justify the action.

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when complaining please also include your trading standards - they can only take action forward if there are enough complaints to justify the action.

 

Hi YTTP..........can I call you 'yeppty' for short?.....

 

.....OK can you please supply contact details for Trading Standards........an email address would be my preference...........

 

xx krj8:D

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when complaining please also include your trading standards - they can only take action forward if there are enough complaints to justify the action.

 

Agree but the action needs to be robust and not just a cosy chat over tea and scones, where the dca blame adnin error or keying error. This is what we need to demand of our mp's examples made of some dca's ie full fines and licence revocations

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Just google trading standards for your local area - you should get an email address from there.


:)I am not an expert, but I can give good advice about Brighthouse:)

 

Am learning more and more about DCA's too :)

 

I have no legal experience and all advice given is based on the knowledge I've gained from this site.

 

<------If you think I have been helpful, please feel free to tip my scales - remember to put your CAG name though!

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Just google trading standards for your local area - you should get an email address from there.

 

 

thanks..........will do

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Agree but the action needs to be robust and not just a cosy chat over tea and scones, where the dca blame adnin error or keying error. This is what we need to demand of our mp's examples made of some dca's ie full fines and licence revocations

 

 

with you all the way............fortunately since in my case the whole matter is currently with the FOS and I forward all correspondence to them......there is a wonderful paper trail already................this thread seems to be going in a big circle back to my original post..............it is becoming clear that in the absence of a relevant copy of the original agreement the account is in limbo. The point I'm making is that it is the creditors legal responsability to have that document prior to taking any action at all..........;).........knowledge is power

Edited by karenruthj8
I must slow down when I'm typing......

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Call me anythign you lie - i'm used to it!! :p YP, will do ;)

 

If you go to direct.gov it should then transfer you to your local trading standards.

 

They did suggest that any future complaints re CCA should be made clear that it is the true copy factor that is the issue and why - as they have got a lot of complaints that haven't actually made the issue clear and TS have gottenthemselves confused over what is beign complained about.

 

By stating that they haven't issued a copy of a CCA or that is not enforceable isn't really enough - they need to know what it isn't enforceable or why they haven't sent a true copy.

 

In my case i was able to prove that they never sent a copy of the agreement that i signed in 2004. TS thought that what they had sent was a true copy (even tho it was blank!), until i pointed out that the charges noted on that agreement was £12 and in 2004 they were much higher than this, so it was not a true copy as the agreement is what i COULD sign now NOT what i DID sign (blank or otherwise!)

 

TS stated that until the true copy requirement is met then enforceability is not an issue - his words were "how can you enforce something that doesn't exist"

 

I stated that because the haven't met the true copy element then the account is in dispute and should not be passed on.

 

I accused Cap 1 of cherry picking bits from the law that suited them and ignoring the bits that didn't. TS are looking further into this

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FOS are plain useless when it comes to CCA stuff. They just duck out and use the line of "this issue can only be determined by a court"

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FOS are plain useless when it comes to CCA stuff. They just duck out and use the line of "this issue can only be determined by a court"

 

 

Hi YP................I don't think the FOS are useless at all........try looking at it this way.........what they are if fact saying to the creditor is "shut up and put your money where you're mouth is"

 

kindests ;)

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Unfortunately the companies aren't seeing this way and you get the response of "The FOS has rejected your complaint, so therefore contact us to arrange a payment plan"

 

They see FOS as agreeing with them and giving them a green light to hound the hell out of people

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Unfortunately the companies aren't seeing this way and you get the response of "The FOS has rejected your complaint, so therefore contact us to arrange a payment plan"

 

They see FOS as agreeing with them and giving them a green light to hound the hell out of people

 

 

...........well they're not likely to put up their hands and say "fair cop guv" are they..........fairness is not their prime directive, profit is.....

 

....greed is a truely distructive thing. ;)

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hi is it possible to ask for the credit agreement even though i have paid a lot of the debt off it was a provident account and was collected at the door and entered into books which they kept i have asked for copies of the books but they have not got them i just have to now pay nearly a thousand pounds :mad:

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You sure can :)


:)I am not an expert, but I can give good advice about Brighthouse:)

 

Am learning more and more about DCA's too :)

 

I have no legal experience and all advice given is based on the knowledge I've gained from this site.

 

<------If you think I have been helpful, please feel free to tip my scales - remember to put your CAG name though!

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