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willtheywontthey

Barclaycard cca - no agreement sent?

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Why would Barclaycard think it was acceptable to satisfy my CCA by sending T+Cs only and in the letter to me they stated current credit limit,balance as of today, next minimum payment due .

 

That's it. Nothing else - no explanation nothing as to why there is no agreement. Is this some sort of new tactic and have they somehow satisfied the CCA section 78 requirement by just doing this??

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Barclays do that to every one and it is a real struggle to get them to send anything else


Im happy to help with support and my own opinions but as i have no legal qualifications If I offer any thoughts to your problems please take it as from my life experience only and not of any legal standing. Always take further advice from the legal experts in your final action,

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never understand em they continue to go down this stupidity route, the only answer can be is.....they dont have an enforceable agreement and hope by sending you this rubbish you will continue to pay them....laughable really

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Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

Thank you for your recent letter sent to me, the contents of which are noted. I appreciate your quick response to my original letter. However, the reply received by me does not fulfill your requirements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

The Act demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. I may ask for this on demand providing that a fee of £1.00 is paid. This fee was sent with my original letter.

My request remains outstanding. An unsigned credit agreement with no personal details on it, like the one you sent in your reply, does not constitute a true copy of any credit agreement that may or may not have been signed by me on the opening of this account. A blank agreement neither confirms that I am liable for any alleged debt to you, nor gives me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’.[/font]

I still require you to send me a true copy of the original credit agreement that you allege exists. As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

You had until ??/??.2009 (12+2 working days after the request was made) to provide me with the true copy I requested. You are now in default of my request. Any account I hold with you is now in legal dispute. Whilst the account remains in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agency.

To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the customer to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

The requirement for consent to share data is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998. Any such attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office the time limits, which are laid down in the Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983 are clear. You must supply an executed credit agreement within 12 + 2 working days of a proper CCA request. If you fail to comply with a legitimate request the account enters a default situation.

To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with the document I have requested. Whilst you remain in default of my request, you are not permitted to take any action against this account. This includes adding further charges and passing any information to the credit information industry.[/font]

I expect you to write to me confirming that the account has been closed and no further action will be taken.

I look forward to your reply.

 

Yours faithfully


Im happy to help with support and my own opinions but as i have no legal qualifications If I offer any thoughts to your problems please take it as from my life experience only and not of any legal standing. Always take further advice from the legal experts in your final action,

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oh and no they havent satisfied section 78 in spite of what they say

are they really going to convince the courts that this is a legal cc agreement

i think not!!

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Account Number

Account In Dispute

Re; Barclaycards recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I am writing to say that i made a request to Barclycard on ---2009 under section 77-9 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 for a true copy of my agreement

I note that they have replied to the above by sending their companies current Terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that the company is still in default under the act..I wrote to Barclaycard on ----2009 informing them of this.

 

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a "true copy" of the agreement.

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, "the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form." This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues


Im happy to help with support and my own opinions but as i have no legal qualifications If I offer any thoughts to your problems please take it as from my life experience only and not of any legal standing. Always take further advice from the legal experts in your final action,

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Account Number

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

Contrary to assertions made by (NAME OF THE PERSON WHO SIGNED LETTER) in a letter dated ----- 2009, Barclaycard has still failed to comply with its obligations under section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act.

 

The set of documents included in your letter however, do not absolve Barclaycard of its obligations under section 78 of the 1974 Act.

 

Regulation 3(1) of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557) requires the provision of a true copy of an agreement. Although this need not be an exact copy and certain information may be omitted from a true copy, it must still be a true copy rather than a conjectured reconstruction and the information that may be omitted is strictly specified.

 

However, it is not the case that information need only be provided in relation to an agreement as varied or that only the most recent version of the terms and conditions applicable to an agreement need be provided.

 

Seeking to rely on regulation 7 in supporting that position is to overlook both the distinctions between the wording regulation 7 on one hand and regulations 8 and 9 on the other.

 

Although regulations 8 and 9 use the word "comprise", regulation 7 uses the word "include". It provides that copies provided in accordance with any section other than section 85 shall include either an easily legible copy of the latest notice of variation or an easily legible statement of the terms of the agreement as varied.

 

Barclaycard would only have been entitled to provide a statement of the current terms of the agreement in lieu of a true copy of the executed agreement in the very limited circumstances in which regulation 9 applies (ie to agreements entered into prior to 1985).

 

Neither regulation 8 nor 9 applies in this instance, so the information provided must include the current terms and conditions and not merely comprise the current terms and conditions.

 

Accordingly, Barclaycard was (and is still) obliged to provide a true copy of the terms and conditions referred to in any application form in their original form, in addition to the current terms and conditions that have been provided.

 

I would be obliged if these could now be provided without further delay or prevarication.

In the meantime, the effect of section 78(6) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 is that Barclaycard is precluded from taking any enforcement action whatsoever in relation to the account.

 

 

You are reminded that should litigation be your preferred course of action you will be required to provide the original document for the Court and that the courts powers to enforce an agreement that is not properly executed and that was entered into before 2007 are limited by section 127(3) of the consumer Credit Act 1974 .

I really think that the best way forward to resolve this matter to both our satisfaction would be for you to-

 

 

(1) Confirm whether or not you still hold the original signed and executed document at your offices for this account and that it will be available to bring to any court should any type of legal proceedings be commenced in future.

 

 

(2) Send me a true exact signed copy of this original agreement if you still hold it.

 

 

(3) Alternatively, if you still maintain you retain the original signed Agreement with all the prescribed terms as laid down in the regulations then I request to be allowed to view this at your offices and that you contact me in writing to arrange a convenient time to view the original agreement

 

 

I am sure that you will agree that doing the above will maybe resolve this matter and would also save future court time and costs, which would be in both our interests. I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter and I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

 

Yours Faithfully


Im happy to help with support and my own opinions but as i have no legal qualifications If I offer any thoughts to your problems please take it as from my life experience only and not of any legal standing. Always take further advice from the legal experts in your final action,

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one of the above letters could be sent to them,In end i sent them all to Barclayshark at various times! They will probably ignore them but at least by sending them letters if it goes further in future and you get lany sort of legal proceedings you can leave a paper trail and show DCAS and judges that you made every effort to save court time to view alleged agreement:DI sent the one asking for an invitation for me to view alleged agreement at their offices last! I dont think they will be keen to take me up on my invitation!:D


Im happy to help with support and my own opinions but as i have no legal qualifications If I offer any thoughts to your problems please take it as from my life experience only and not of any legal standing. Always take further advice from the legal experts in your final action,

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thanks - will read when sober! ;)

 

I will also go and check my very old and original cca request I made last year. I do believe that they sent me a cca which I never checked because they were 'polite' and I let them off the hook so to speak. This time I asked them to arrange a lowe interest rate whcih wuld nto take 700+ yrs to pay. They declined so I CCA'd them. Hmm. Aything else to expect?

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thanks - will read when sober! ;)

 

I will also go and check my very old and original cca request I made last year. I do believe that they sent me a cca which I never checked because they were 'polite' and I let them off the hook so to speak. This time I asked them to arrange a lowe interest rate whcih wuld nto take 700+ yrs to pay. They declined so I CCA'd them. Hmm. Aything else to expect?

LOL! only loads and loads and loads and loads of phone calls and annoying text messages first from Barclaycard, then their first inhouse collection dept Mercers ,and then their second inhouse collection dept Calderthey reserve for the really hard cases! where they try and frighten people by putting legal services after Calders title.I think all the recorded calder nessages turning my OH brain lol as he was reciting them round the house!The messages recording comes out very strange as though comeing from people not all there! LOL they say my first name which they seems to hang on for several seconds on answer machine LOL before reciting my last name!The same message gets read out twice on answer machine informing everyone near answer machine that Barclayshark Mercers and Calders after me ! :eek:Also constant letters saying they dont have to send you anything else and that your alleged agreement fully enforceble in court :rolleyes: At moment i am still with Calders! Oh and also expect doorstep callers as Barclayshark true to their word and do send real humans im afraid! but me and OH just ignore then till they go away as they got no legal rights!We got ones from scottcall and Mercers!:eek:

Edited by sunflower99

Im happy to help with support and my own opinions but as i have no legal qualifications If I offer any thoughts to your problems please take it as from my life experience only and not of any legal standing. Always take further advice from the legal experts in your final action,

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Had a letter today from Mercers (sorry for spelling errorin thread title!)- acting on behalf of Barclaycard and wanting me to pay the full minimum or they'll do this and do that. I was going to pay 'some' to Barclaycard but now am inclined not to. Have asked Barclaycard if they will reduce interest rate (it is some astronomicall 30-40% I believe) but they refused. They have not replied to last letter asking why not etc which I sent over a month ago.

 

I have already been defaulted by other credit card companies so that threat is an empty one. My concern is that my mortgage is with Barclays and any complications with Barclaycard will cause problems in future.. or they will try to take money from mymortgage 'reserve' which is zero (!!) or my overdraft which is maxed out.... somehow I feel they will do this?

 

Had the original cca off Barclaycard some months ago which I recall was not enforceable. I then cca'd them some time back as I'd read a thread about some dodgy ccas being typed out. I then got one of those new typed out ones rather than the one I got initially to my SAR.

 

What I would like to do is pay Barclaycard some money - cannot afford minimum amount but do not want to go onto a repayment plan as in a couple of months they should get their full minimum (mainly because I've stopped other card payments!)

 

I also do not want to give Mercers nor Barclaycard the satisfaction of thinking I am reacting to their red letter.

 

Any advice based on experiences with Barclaycard or Mercers?

Edited by willtheywontthey

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There's an easy option with Mercers, ignore them!!

 

I CCA'd BC earlier in the year and all they sent was a current copy of their T&Cs so I put the acount into dispute. A short time after I got the first letter from Mercers threatening legal action etc followed by several more, then a default notice from them.

Then I started getting threats from Calders which, like Mercers, is just Barclaycard in disguise. Again I ignored them and now the debts been passed to Credit Solutions Ltd.

Just had a letter from these cowboys to say a copy of current T&Cs are a valid response to a CCA request, I'm going to have some fun with these jokers:D

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Hi WTWT,

 

Title spelling error corrected. ;)

 

My concern is that Barclays will use their "Right to Set-Off" and take money from any other Barclays a/c and give it to BC to cover any arrears.

 

You should really be careful as any money you pay into the bank will be at risk. They're not fussy and will happily take funds to pay the BC arrears leaving you short for mortgage payments or anything else.

 

If you have another a/c you could use, consider doing this.

 

You could try telling BC this is a temporary problem and see if this will buy you some time. But BC aren't famous for their undersatanding nature.

 

You may have more success if you try approaching them through one of the debt-help agencies. Debt: Where to Get Help - Consumer Wiki


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Barclays don't let me have any of my mortgage reserve so surely they cannot let anybody else have it? Almost wish they would do that as the interest is much lower!!

 

Now had a statement from Barclays wanting me to pay overdue amount by next month.. that contradicts what Mercers have said... whom I'm ignoring.

 

Any further advice? Also is there no easy way to get barclaycard to reduce their amazingly high APRs as I'm struggling just with their interest rates to be honest. Is there a way to calculate how long it would take to pay back in years based on interest rate + minimum payment %? I wrote to them a while back stating I would be dead before it would be paid off (ie probably 100+ years!) and could they reduce interest rate. They refused.

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Did you look at the link I put at the end of my last post.

 

You may find BC more willing to negotiate if this is done through a recognised intermediary.


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sorry for delay - missed this reply.

 

I relaly do not want to use third parties. Live in rural area and everybody knows everybody. I already had consumer direct people refer me without knowing to my local trading standards where they everybody knows everybody else.

 

Strange thing is have not heard from mercers for 2 weeks now.

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I understand but CCCS, for instance, are a national set-up and may be able to help set up an arrangement which BC would honour. This wouldn't involve anyone local to you, I'm sure.

 

Glad it's been quiet - don't hold your breath though. ;)


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Can a bank make you 'borrow' more to ofset a debt ie use overdraft facility (complicated as Barclays agreed new terms on this new system a year ago without asking me) (o/d is 'full' of bank charges)

 

OR

 

can they use Mortgage reserve which is 'spare' on this Openplan system... even though there is a reserve they do not let ME use it........... so can they?

 

what're the rules of this ofsetting??

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They can offset if their is a balance in another account at the bank that is in credit but I doubt they can offset if an account is in the red, causing the customer to go deeper into the red.

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if offsetting is not mentioned in your T&C then they cannot do it

 

dx


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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Sorry, but yes they can. Plus, I would be very very very surprised if this was not in their T and C


I am a lawyer, but I am an academic lawyer. I do not practice as a barrister or solicitor. You should consult a practising Solicitor BEFORE taking any Court or other action

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rameses - yes they can to offsetting if not in T+Cs or 'yes' to my initial post ie can they do this to eg my overdraft facility if there is availability or to my mortgage or mortgage reserve 'allocation'??

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I believe Calder Financial are part of Mercers who belong to Barclaycard?

 

Had statements from Barclaycard. Had letter from Mercers a couple fo weeks back and now from Calders Financial. Calders state I 'must' pay the full sum within 7 days.

 

Is this not some form of termination - asking for full amount?

 

Are they allowed to say 'must'? Is that not misleading etc?

 

Can I assume the account has been terminated etc even if the demand came from a DCA and not OC?

 

Wondering if I should do the usual 1. send SAR... 2. Send CCA and 3. Send don't come calling letter?

 

Should I do anythig different now based on any recent updates in law etc or are things stil the same in regards to cca etc? I knwo there's been tw test cases about Xmas time but to be honest I'm not sure what they mean (!)

 

Also anything I need to be wary of with Calders?

 

Thanks and sorry for all questions as usual.

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correction - they did not ask for full amount just outstanding amount. Must wake up properly before opening post!

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what is best course of action?

 

Leave them be and somehow use this info. later on?

Let them know?

 

Apex is one and Moorcroft or Wescot is the other (I always mix those 2 up)

 

on behalf of BCard.

 

Is there legislation anywhere saying two not allowed? Can the DCAs be fined or something?

 

I take it any tom, dick or harry is allowed to a. trace and b. look a my credit file / search credit file?

 

I will need to check out if either of them have noted anything on my credit record. If a DCA is a 'client' are they allowed to put details on credit file?

 

thanks

x

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