can u get a fine referred back to the council?

[MontanaMontana]

Hi all,

 

I'm just trying to help my brother sort out a few parking fines and I've got a few questions if anyone can help.

 

Is there anyway you can get the debt/fine referred back to the council because of the bailiffs conduct? i.e. pay the council instead of the bailiffs due to the bailiff breaching guidelines on how they should act and chase the fine?

 

Also, I paid a fine to Jacobs bailiffs which wasn't mine (my brothers). I didn't pay it on my brothers behalf (he never asked me to because he moved away). I only paid it because the bailiff kept posting debt chasing letters through the door but WITHOUT envelopes (so I obviously could read the contents). Therefore I called up the bailiff and eventually only made the payment because of his threats (didn't know as much back then). I also made the payment on the basis that it would be clearing all his PCN's. Now it turns out there's still a load of PCN's outstanding to my brothers name. My problem is that all this was just over the phone and I never got anything in writing. I've called the local authority but they're not helping at all (shock horror). They just go you've got to speak to the bailiffs.

 

My brother wrote to Jacobs and they confirm that they received my payment. He also requested a breakdown of what this £899.48 payment was for exactly but he didn't get an answer to this when they wrote back. I also still have my bank records when this payment was taken.

 

What's the chance of me getting this payment returned in the small claims court? And if there is a chance, how would I go about doing it and is there any relevant parts of the law I would need to state? Would it probably be better if my brother submitted a SAR to the bailiffs first so he has more detailed information? (i guess this would be useful for me too?)

 

Ta.

[Jamberson]

As regards bailiff conduct, if they have behaved improperly then you can complain about this but it would be exeptional for the local authority to take the case away from them as a result.

 

What did they do that was improper? If they have committed a serious breach then this might alter things. Could you explain further?

 

As regards getting the payment back through small claims, this seems unlikely. Your brother is entitled to a breakdown of charges - get him to demand one in writing again. If you made a payment, I can't see any reason why they would be legally compelled to give you your money back unless you have evidence that the charges were imposed incorrectly.

[MontanaMontana]

Thanks for the reply.

 

1. From my point of view, I made a payment for a fine which I WASN'T liable for. (all PCN's are to my brother). Hence I wanted to see if I could get this back by small claims.

 

2. From my point of view, they acted improper because the bailiff made threats and gave me misleading information which resulted in me paying said fine. He stated that although my brother no longer lived here he still had the authority to come and remove any goods to pay off the fines. Obviously I didn't want this to happen and I didn't want to cause any unnecessary stress to my elderly mother if they did come and I was at work.

 

3. From my brother's point of view, the bailiffs acted improper because they kept posting numerous letters addressed to him without envelopes through the door, obviously I could read the contents. I called up the bailiff and he was happy to discuss everything with me about all the fines and amounts etc. I thought there was something about not being allowed to discuss the issue with anybody else apart from the debtor themselves? e.g. data protection act etc? Their letters clearly state private & confidential aswell.

 

Anything to go by or am I clutching at straws?

[Jamberson]

I really don't think you have much of a chance with this. I sympathise with the situation you're in, but I can't see anything serious enough to say it's worth fighting. I will give you my thoughts on this situation, but others might disagree.

 

I think most of the procedural matters you have cited are not going to be grounds for a successful complaint, but the allegation of a breach of data protection is slightly more serious. That could be pursued by your brother, but my view is it will not affect liability nor get you your money back. It might however get the bailiff a slap on the wrist, or possibly a fine, if upheld.

 

Looking at the specific complaints you're raising, I don't see them as very significant from a legal/procedural angle. You make four points, that the bailiff:

 

- made threats to you

- gave you misleading info

- claimed he had authority to remove goods

- offered to discuss the fines and amounts with you

 

My perspectives:

 

As regards threats, I'm assuming you weren't physically threatened? He made threats pertaining to what would happen if the debt was unpaid? This is pretty much legit. "If the debt isn't paid, then x, y, z". They are threats in the true sense of the word, but part of the normal process.

 

Giving you misleading info: This is a grey area. If the info was given verbally with no record to back it up, then I would say there's no route for you there. Reading between the lines, it sounds like the misleading info was that your property could be seized to pay your brother's debt. It's not true, and he should never have said so, but unless you can show that this specifically was put to you as a consequence of you not paying, and not just suggested, any further action is unlikely to succeed.

 

Authority to remove goods. Much the same. It's true he has authority to remove - but only goods belonging to your brother. Since your exchanges were verbal I think you would struggle to win a complaint that way.

 

Discussing the matter with you: The data protection act covers personal records and information, so you would have to be clear on what exactly was disclosed. It would then be a case for your brother to pursue against the bailiff. I am unclear on the issue of unsealed letters, but that sounds to me like a possible breach and someone here might be able to give you a definite view on that.

 

Will any of this get you your cash back? Sadly I don't think so. It's true that you made payments for a debt which was not yours, but if you were to appeal to a small claims court, the bailiff will presumably claim that no-one forced you to pay up, and that you did so voluntarily. That's where you will rely on the perceived threats and misleading info, which will be a tough one to prove before a court as it will be your word against his as to who said what and how it came across.

 

Maybe someone else will have a idea how you might have some success with this...

[MontanaMontana]

Thanks for that jamberson, you've been a great help. I think you've just highlighted what I thought deep down really. I thought it might have come down to their word versus mine, and obviously with no records, I know it has a very slim chance of success.

 

I've updated my brother on this and I've already told him to get a breakdown of what my payment was for. Just waiting for Jacobs to reply before he considers the next step... but I personally think £900 for 2 PCN's is a bit too much!

[Maggie_moo]

If your brother was no longer a resident at the property then the bailiff had no authority to remove any goods or even enter the property. If you felt you paid under duress it might be worth a form 4 complaint.