iddles10 v Halifax Credit Card

[iddles10]

Hi there everyone. I've been reading through all the stuff on here (as you dooooooo) and have taken the first few steps with Halifax, as described here. I'm just getting to the sticky points, so thought I'd post everything here, ready to ask a couple of questions, if someone would like to halp, pleez!?

 

To be continued:

[iddles10]

I CCA1974'd Halifax at the beginning of June and got this in response, along with standard TYPED unsigned, current and original terms and conditions:

 

http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww200/runmonkey/Halifax%20CC/HalifaxBLANKPage1.jpg

 

So, I sent them this:

 

http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww200/runmonkey/Halifax%20CC/MeToHalifaxBLANKPage.jpg

 

As soon as my monthly payment became late, I started to receive 4/5/6 automated phone calls to them, per day. I still received my monthly statement, telling me a payment was late, too. So, I sent them this:

 

http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww200/runmonkey/Halifax%20CC/MeToHalifaxDataPage1.jpg

 

http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww200/runmonkey/Halifax%20CC/MeToHalifaxDataPage2.jpg

 

And thennnnn, I received this demand for a payment:

 

http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww200/runmonkey/Halifax%20CC/HalifaxBLANK2.jpg

 

So, what's annoying me is that whilst they haven't responded to my last letter, yet, they are ringing me all day. I know that this is commonplace, but does anyone have a way around this? I've tried asking a friend to ring and say that the number doesn't belong to me, already. They, apparently, can't trace the mobile number without an account number.

 

Also, they are obviously not responding to the part of the letter that says that my telephone number is no longer 'in effect' and the notice that the account is in dispute, as they are still making demands for payments by letter and phonecalls (via automated collection calls). They definately received the letter, I checked on the Royal Mail website (sent recorded delivery). They probably don't give two hoots for the credit file warnings, either.

 

Thanks for any help peeps.

 

Happy Friday.

 

P.S. Sending the request for a copy of the CCA under the CCA1974 Act seems to be a 'weak' approach. Isn't it quicker to send a Subject Access Request, to establish if they actually do hold a properly executed agreement?

Edited June 26, 2009 by iddles10

[iddles10]

I've sent this to Halifax regarding the telephone harassment:

 

http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww200/runmonkey/Halifax%20CC/BLANKMeToHalifaxTelephoneHarass2706.jpg

 

http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww200/runmonkey/Halifax%20CC/BLANKMeToHalifaxTelephoneHarass2-1.jpg

 

I am still getting calls today, so far. They are making a few silent calls, too.

[sunflower99]

Hi Iddles

i had a similar problem with MBNA and some other DCAs where they kept phoneing me up several times a day at both my home and workplace,I particulary found the work ones extra out of order and distressing as it was a low trick and a definite ploy to embaress and humiliate me in front of my work colleagues:mad:Like you i wrote MBNA and Barclaycard telephone harrasement letters and it did take them quite a while to respond,i did get them to agree to remove my work number from their systems and at least the calls at my work place stopped eventually though took a whileBut they still reserved the right to phone me at home! and still do sometimes though i think MBNA given up! The thing that made life easier for us was that we got an answer machine so we could screen caalls a lot DCAs seeem to hate answer machines and now our phone just rings and we ignore it until who ever it talks to our answer machine!and if it someone we want to speak to we pick up receiver we speak to them if it not we ignore them:DBut its quite funny DCAs just hate answer machines and as soon as they get our message they just slam the phone down now or we just get recorded text messages which though annoying we just ignore and make a joke of them!

[sunflower99]

Ive never done it but you can apparently report them to OFT or commisoners office,I found in MBNA case they do eventually seem to give up and dont ring nearly as much but does take a long time .Though Barclayshark and their collection Depts Mercers and calders ring me loads of times and still leave loads of text messages but at least they dont bother me at work now which was the most important thing! as i can ignore home ones but work ones you cant and so humiliating when they ring your work place in spite of being told to stop:mad:

[iddles10]

I've read through the 'formal' notice offered by this site, and it doesn't really carry much weight unless a judge decides that harassment is actually taking place. These companies seem to have a clause in most of these Acts which allows them to pursue:

 

(2) A person is not guilty of an offence by virtue of subsection (1)(a)(ii) above if he shows—

(a) that the threat was used to reinforce a demand which he believed he had reasonable grounds for making; and

(b) that he believed that the use of the threat was a proper means of reinforcing the demand.

 

I don't call up to 4/5/6 calls a day reasonable, though.

 

Who would I make a complaint to? If I believe, for example, that they are in breach of the Protection from Harassment Act, what is my first course of action?

 

Anyone know?

 

Thanks

[iddles10]

Well, well, well. I've just found some excellent software for blocking Halifax calls to my mobile. Very cheap too.

 

Job done!

[sunflower99]

Well, well, well. I've just found some excellent software for blocking Halifax calls to my mobile. Very cheap too.

 

Job done!

Thats great! some people use truecall but i found just an ordinary answer machine a tremendous help in our case:)

[sunflower99]

Was you letter requesting alleged agreement a 31.16 request or a s78 request or was the letter a combination of both?

[iddles10]

Hi Sunflower (Very jolly nickname, giving that it's summer, too! Just planted a few miniatures in me garden!)

 

Anywayyyyy.....my original request was a s78 template from here. All other letters have been linked above. I accidentally mentioned CPR in the second request letter, but they ignored it anyway.

 

They haven't sent a copy of anything that I have signed. Do you think that they have read my letters and are trying to claim a misunderstanding of the request?

 

I'm going to read this link, which somebody suggested, about getting credit file entries removed, but in the meantime, try to request a copy of my signed form, to make sure that it wasn't properly executed.

 

Anyway - the link:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/credit-reference-agencies/148780-experian-final-battle-commences.html

 

Any suggestions at this point are always appreciated. Thanks.

[sunflower99]

Hi Iddles 10 i have not gone down the road of default removal yet so can not give much advice on that issue im afraid but hopefully a more experienced Cagger will come along and help you with that but i am in same boat as you as regards trying to get something other that unsigned ts and cs of Barclayshark!in reponse to a s78 request! Though youu may have confused them a bit putting in a 31,16 request on letter but evne if you had not Halifax seem like Barclayshark trying to stall sending a proper response to a s78 request!I will find you the three letters i used in my Baclayshark request! i used them all at various times in my BC dispute:D

[sunflower99]

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

Thank you for your recent letter sent to me, the contents of which are noted. I appreciate your quick response to my original letter. However, the reply received by me does not fulfill your requirements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

The Act demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. I may ask for this on demand providing that a fee of £1.00 is paid. This fee was sent with my original letter.

My request remains outstanding. An unsigned credit agreement with no personal details on it, like the one you sent in your reply, does not constitute a true copy of any credit agreement that may or may not have been signed by me on the opening of this account. A blank agreement neither confirms that I am liable for any alleged debt to you, nor gives me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’.[/font]

I still require you to send me a true copy of the original credit agreement that you allege exists. As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

You had until ??/??.2009 (12+2 working days after the request was made) to provide me with the true copy I requested. You are now in default of my request. Any account I hold with you is now in legal dispute. Whilst the account remains in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agency.

To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the customer to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

The requirement for consent to share data is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998. Any such attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office the time limits, which are laid down in the Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983 are clear. You must supply an executed credit agreement within 12 + 2 working days of a proper CCA request. If you fail to comply with a legitimate request the account enters a default situation.

To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with the document I have requested. Whilst you remain in default of my request, you are not permitted to take any action against this account. This includes adding further charges and passing any information to the credit information industry.[/font]

I expect you to write to me confirming that the account has been closed and no further action will be taken.

I look forward to your reply.

 

Yours faithfully

[sunflower99]

Account Number

Account In Dispute

Re; Barclaycards recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I am writing to say that i made a request to Barclycard on ---2009 under section 77-9 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 for a true copy of my agreement

I note that they have replied to the above by sending their companies current Terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that the company is still in default under the act..I wrote to Barclaycard on ----2009 informing them of this.

 

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a "true copy" of the agreement.

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, "the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form." This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues

[sunflower99]

Account Number

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

Contrary to assertions made by (NAME OF THE PERSON WHO SIGNED LETTER) in a letter dated ----- 2009, Barclaycard has still failed to comply with its obligations under section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act.

 

The set of documents included in your letter however, do not absolve Barclaycard of its obligations under section 78 of the 1974 Act.

 

Regulation 3(1) of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557) requires the provision of a true copy of an agreement. Although this need not be an exact copy and certain information may be omitted from a true copy, it must still be a true copy rather than a conjectured reconstruction and the information that may be omitted is strictly specified.

 

However, it is not the case that information need only be provided in relation to an agreement as varied or that only the most recent version of the terms and conditions applicable to an agreement need be provided.

 

Seeking to rely on regulation 7 in supporting that position is to overlook both the distinctions between the wording regulation 7 on one hand and regulations 8 and 9 on the other.

 

Although regulations 8 and 9 use the word "comprise", regulation 7 uses the word "include". It provides that copies provided in accordance with any section other than section 85 shall include either an easily legible copy of the latest notice of variation or an easily legible statement of the terms of the agreement as varied.

 

Barclaycard would only have been entitled to provide a statement of the current terms of the agreement in lieu of a true copy of the executed agreement in the very limited circumstances in which regulation 9 applies (ie to agreements entered into prior to 1985).

 

Neither regulation 8 nor 9 applies in this instance, so the information provided must include the current terms and conditions and not merely comprise the current terms and conditions.

 

Accordingly, Barclaycard was (and is still) obliged to provide a true copy of the terms and conditions referred to in any application form in their original form, in addition to the current terms and conditions that have been provided.

 

I would be obliged if these could now be provided without further delay or prevarication.

 

In the meantime, the effect of section 78(6) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 is that Barclaycard is precluded from taking any enforcement action whatsoever in relation to the account.

 

 

You are reminded that should litigation be your preferred course of action you will be required to provide the original document for the Court and that the courts powers to enforce an agreement that is not properly executed and that was entered into before 2007 are limited by section 127(3) of the consumer Credit Act 1974 .

I really think that the best way forward to resolve this matter to both our satisfaction would be for you to-

 

 

(1) Confirm whether or not you still hold the original signed and executed document at your offices for this account and that it will be available to bring to any court should any type of legal proceedings be commenced in future.

 

 

(2) Send me a true exact signed copy of this original agreement if you still hold it.

 

 

(3) Alternatively, if you still maintain you retain the original signed Agreement with all the prescribed terms as laid down in the regulations then I request to be allowed to view this at your offices and that you contact me in writing to arrange a convenient time to view the original agreement

 

 

I am sure that you will agree that doing the above will maybe resolve this matter and would also save future court time and costs, which would be in both our interests. I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter and I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

 

Yours Faithfully

[sunflower99]

Any of the above letters amended to suit would e suitable to use and as i said before i eventually used them all in my Barclayshark dispute! The last one i wrote asking for an invite to their offices to view alleged agreement was the very last letter i sent them them a few days ago!\Somehow i dont think Barclayshark will be too kean to take up that offer of a visit from me ,Although Halifax may ignore all your letters ! at least by writing all these letters you will be leaving a paper trail and if things get taken furthrer in future at least you can show future DCAs or judges copies of these letters and show that you have made reasonable efforts to recieve or view proper copies of alleged CCA in an attempt to save court time!

[iddles10]

Thanks very much for your time Sunflower ol' toot! :grin: Much appreciated.

 

I've sent them a Subject Access Request today, with a highlighted line stipulating a copy of anything that bears my signature. I did this mainly because all three of the creditors, to whom I've sent the previous CCA 1974 requests seem to be leading me a merry dance and just sending the same type of stuff - not the actual copy of a signed agreement. They are also ignoring my claims that the accounts are in Formal Dispute, and to stop demanding money and charging interest etc.

 

They could be doing this for a few reasons, but I won't get my divining stick out just yet. I'm just reading up on attacking the CRA's into removing the file entries without an enforceable agreement in place. Some people seem to have managed it. Mainly using the Data Protection Act 1998. Although, without a copy of a signed agreement I have no chance. I might have to ask a court to formally request it. However I do that - not sure. I wonder if they'll end up paying all the costs if I can prove that I informally and formally requested it enough times!?

Edited July 7, 2009 by iddles10

[iddles10]

I don't know whether to cry, or cry. They've sent me this - a signed agreement.

 

http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww200/runmonkey/Halifax%20CC/HalifaxAgrPage1.jpg

 

http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww200/runmonkey/Halifax%20CC/HalifaxAgrPage2.jpg

 

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! (:o(:::::::::::::::::::

 

hehe. Any ideas anyone?

 

It does look a bit sus with the conditions pasted on the back (a different size etc) It makes me wonder if they were there at the time of signing, or not. There is no signature date. There is no signature from their company. They got my date of birth slightly wrong when they typed it onto the form. Also, my registered bank is wrong, but the sort code is right. I have to say - it looks right. (:o.

 

Am I the first ever person to have had a real one sent to them?

 

I was thinking of asking them to transfer the actual document to a local branch for my inspection. ??

Edited July 9, 2009 by iddles10

[sunflower99]

I don't know whether to cry, or cry. They've sent me this - a signed agreement.

 

http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww200/runmonkey/Halifax%20CC/HalifaxAgrPage1.jpg

 

http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww200/runmonkey/Halifax%20CC/HalifaxAgrPage2.jpg

 

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! (:o(:::::::::::::::::::

 

hehe. Any ideas anyone?

 

It does look a bit sus with the conditions pasted on the back (a different size etc) It makes me wonder if they were there at the time of signing, or not. There is no signature date. They got my date of birth slightly wrong when they typed it onto the form. Also, my registered bank is wrong, but the sort code is right. I have to say - it looks right. (:o.

 

Am I the first ever person to have had a real one sent to them?

Hi Iddles

My thoughts as well! though obviusly i cant be a 100% sure unless you ever got to see the original agreemnent but to me it looks very suspect as alleged back being different size etc and the front is obviously an application form and i would be very surprised if it had prescribed conditions on back! Thye are being very clever as they sending two papers together implying but not actually saying the two sides are back and front same document:wink:

[sunflower99]

The same thing happenend to me with my MBNA and Crapital one alleged agreements where they sent responses implying but not actually saying that my signed application form had a back of prescribed ts and cs;) i actually sent them both letters in the end asking them to confirm that the two pages were back and front of same document ! and pointing out various concerns i had with their s78 reponse! and asking for an appointment to view alleged agreement at their had office to resolve matter if they still maintained they had an enforceable agreement! They both totally ignored the questions and did not take up my offer to view their alleged agreements:D i wonder why! :DPerhaps you could send them a similar letter!

[sunflower99]

Also a good chance that that just a microfilch copy and as alot of banks did have shredded a lot of original agreements and if they did the same to you it will cause them problems as they can be compelled to bring original signed alleged agreement to any court should any sort of legal action be initiated against you!

[sunflower99]

Also i notice they got heading wrong describing the nature of your agreement on application form for a credit card,The correct heading should read Credit card agreement not Credit agreement which they have put on your application form!They misssed out the word card !

[sunflower99]

so missing out the word card for a credit card agreement makes it immproperly executed as Schdule i of the consumer credit agreement regulations 1983 state that the correct heading giving precise nature of agrrement should be stated on cca! so they got that wrong! Alright getting heading rwrong meansthat a judge can make an enforcemant order under s65 to get it enforced but it still an extra problem that it needs an enforce ment order from a judge for it to get through court and if it occurring together with the major mistake of agreement not having prescribed terms makes it even more of a headache for them ! As a lack of prescribed terms makes it entirely unenforceable in amy pre 2007 agreement even under a s65 !

[sunflower99]

so if it turns out that that alleged sencond docunement not ovreleaf of application form they got problems! and i would be tempted to write them a letter at least asking them to confirm second document is actually on back of application form!

[iddles10]

Will do. Thank you.

[Spice57]

Hi Iddles10

subbing, just received the same signed CCA/Application form with t&c on the reverse in a different type font and settings. My doc actually states on the end of the page horizantally " approved application signature only required". How are you planning to respond