Echowitch-claiming back VM charges.

[echowitch]

Any suggestions on claiming back Late Payment and DD charges from Virgin Media. We left them in April but they continued to charge us for 20 days after we left them (they actually disconnected us 2 days before we moved out, and then reconnected us 3 days afterwards.) We've demanded that they remove these 20 days of charges and also requested they refund all of the Late Payment and Non-DD charges which they've said if we want anything on the charges we have to make a DPA Request and pay a tenner.

 

I lodged a complaint with the Financial Ombudsman Service who said that Virgin Media doesn't come under their remit. They suggested Consumer Direct but that just seems to be advice only.

 

Should I find an alternate Ombudsman or send them a last chance to repay offer and then take them to court for the over-charging and penalty charges ??

[buzby]

When did you provide them with notice of your intended cancellation. You would have needed to give 30 days clear notive of cancellation, providing you were outwith your minimum service period.

 

I am at a loss why you need to make a SAR or that they advised you to do so. But would I be right in assuming these fees have nothing to do with your problem of disconnecting - that they were pre-existing?

 

There's no ombusdsman to complain to on these issues - they're all happy about it (at the moment), you have to decide whether to take the risk and pursue them through the courts if they donl't back down.

[echowitch]

I sent them a letter on the 23rd of February 2009 advising them that we were moving out on the 3rd of April and no longer required their service after that. They cut us off on the 1st of April. I rang them on the 3rd when we moved out to further advise them that we had now left the property. A month later we get a bill showing that they were still billing us for being in there. They corrected it but still billed us for the 6th to the 26th of April. Their claim is that they never received the letter from us telling them that we were moving out. Stupid thing is that I also told their staff on the phone at the start to middle of March as well.

 

I am wanting to reclaim all of the Non-Direct Debit (£5) and Late Payment (£10) Fee's that we seemed to be charged every month for the last couple of years. They claim that we have to write to the CEO of Virgin Media and pay £10 for obtaining that information. Sounds like a DPA SAR but I agree that I don't see why I should get charged that.

 

I was thinking of getting the amounts for the charges, and sending them a letter of intent to take court action and off them the opportunity to settle before I take action.

 

Below is a copy of the last letter I sent them, which prompted their Customer Complaints staff to ring me and tell me.

 

1. No they are still going to charge me for the 20 days

2. If I want all the charges info I have to send a letter requesting it and a Cheque/Postal Order for £10 to the CEO.

 

I am writing with regards the above account. After speaking with Kate ****** of your Customer Service Team, (who incidentally was very helpful,) I am shocked and alarmed at what has happened on this account. Especially in regards to the billing of the account. On the 23rd of February 2009 we sent a letter to you advising you that we were moving out of 123 Fake Street and no longer required your services after this date. Included in the bill was our new address. On the 3rd of April when we moved out we rang and confirmed that we had moved out to ensure that you would no longer bill us for services at the property.

1st April 2009 – You cut us off for non-payment of the bill. Fair enough, it had slipped our mind but we weren’t too concerned as we had requested a final bill anyway and were waiting for that so as to pay in full.

This however is where I find myself shocked and upset. 6th April you RE-CONNECTED us…….despite the fact that you knew we were not in the property, and your staff had confirmed that we had moved out 3 days before hand. You then proceeded to keep the re-connection active until the 26th of April which you are charging us for.

Due to the fact that I advised you nearly a month and a half in advance, and advised on the day that we had moved out I refuse to pay for services after the 1st of April. I would have originally paid for services up until the 3rd of April but as you chose to cut us off on the 1st of April and thus were not providing those services I don’t expect to be charged for them. In addition I find it shameful that you would (as I was advised by your staff) re-connect us to disconnect us…..and then charge us.

I expect you to remove all charges from the 1st of April 2009 onwards and send a revised bill.

[MARTIN3030]

Raymond I am assuming that he/she may have asked for a list of charges and they have said that they need to make a SAR for statements.They will no doubt be very aware of any response as soon as the word "Charges and refund" were mentioned.

The regulator for Telecoms is not the FOS !!

You should put something in writing and make sure that you keep copies.

Its not clear exactly if you were in compliance with the terms and conditions,as Raymond suggests for terminating the agreement.

You should be wary of them passing your account to Moorcroft for recovery,and therefore I would suggest that you make it clear that you are disputing the issues,and that pending resolution they should suspend any third party action.

Whether or not they will do that is unclear.

You should start your own thread.I will move these posts for you,with this in mind.

[MARTIN3030]

This is the problem that I experienced-They like to do business by phone but are not keen to put anything in writing aside from saying that you agreed to their terms and conditions.

Sending a tenner to their CEO is unwise.

It should be sent as an official request under the data protection act and addressed to their data controller NOT Neil Birkett !!

[MARTIN3030]

Data Protection/Compliance Manager

Virgin Media Ltd

160 Great Portland Street

London

W1W 5QA

[MARTIN3030]

You will find a temp letter for a SAR in my thread.

[echowitch]

Thanks, I'll get on those letters straight away

 

Which page is the SAR on I can't seem to find it.

[MARTIN3030]

I will have a quick look.

[MARTIN3030]

Their address

 

 

 

date account number;

 

Subject access request Data Protection Act

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

I require copy statements in relation to the above account,which show all transactions.

 

If there has been any activity which was requiring any manual intervention,then please provide details of this.

Additionally please forward copies of your communications with me by telephone,or in writing,and screen shots of my customer activity logs.

I require this information from XXXXX to XXXXX inclusive.

Being aware that a data controller can refuse a request if they are not reasonably satisfied as to the identity of the person making the request,I enclose a copy of a recent utility bill which is proof of address,and also a copy of my passport/Drivers licence (delete as app) which shows proof of name.

 

I enclose the stat fee of £10.00.

 

The purpose in making this request is to determine whether charges or penalties have been applied to my account,in breach of consumer contract terms,and/or common law.

 

Should this to be found to be the case,I will be pursuing recovery of them using the legal framework afforded to me.

 

My understanding is that a request for information under the data protection act should be provided within 40 days.

I look forward to your acknowledgement of my request and the information requested in due course.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

xxxxxxxxxx

 

 

send recorded and keep a copy.

[echowitch]

QUick Update.

 

I spoke to a random Customer Complaints bod today at Virgin who was ringing me regarding the letter I sent them. They have agreed to refund the 23 days from the 3rd of April to the 26th that I've been charged. However they refused to refund the Penalty charges. I had the usual disagreement with the ill informed numpty who gave me the "its in our Terms and Conditions so we can charge it" rubbish. Guess I'll be taking them to court then.

 

Any further suggestions ?? I was thinking of getting the SAR info back first then sending them a last chance to pay me back letter first.

[buzby]

It won't happen.. They cannot settle with you and refuse others, that would be a bigger headache for them. Take what they are offering, and if you were late in paying and this resulted in th charges - keep a note AND your powder dry, following the EU decidion on payment differentials, we'll readying for this to be finally ruled upon, ready for us to claim refunds, WITHOUT having to argue the toss.

[echowitch]

I could agree with take what they offer on the Non-DD issue but Late Payment charges are definitely Penalty Charges. (Even had a Solicitor confirm this to me the other day.)

[buzby]

You miss the point. Your Solicitor could be simply touting for business with no guatantee of success. The Courts also do not agree with his interpretation, as far as they are concerned, it if forms the T&C's then the consumer is bound by them.

 

You can argue this at your expense in a commercial court , or wait for the practice to be formally outlawed and with all your documentation at hand to prove these overpayments, you then submit your claim for a refund at no additional cost. Of course, you'll be paying on time (per your T&C's) which will prevent the amount increasing.

[Bookworm]

Not quite as black and white as that, actually.

 

There have been to date 5 court cases (that I am aware of), all against BT and all in county court (no precedent set) which were lost by customers, and if I remember correctly, they were about the DD charge. I am not aware of any case where the £10 penalty was decided upon.

 

There are unfortunately no exact numbers on how many cases have been won in or out of court against VM. As far as I know, VM don't ever make it to court, they settle instead.

 

Echowitch, sSee Martin3030's thread(s) and I think EmmaF's for the correct advice on how to proceed against VM. You don't need to pay a solicitor for that, you can do it yourself. ;-)

[MARTIN3030]

Agreed-I am not aware of ANY VM cases going any further than the defence submissions.

In fact in 2 of my claims they were settled after acknowledgement.

[buzby]

And the charges will STILL be added in the future. SO even if your action was successful the victory is just a short-term one.

 

Further, as I pay my bills on time because of this, why should you be granted a dispensation to pay when it suits them?

[Bookworm]

Because, like it or not, and you obviously don't, penalty charges are unlawful in this country.

 

Sometimes, the answer is that simple.

[echowitch]

Well Im no longer their customer (thankfully), and the Solicitor was a Conveyancing Solicitor who already had my business over a house purchase

 

So.......Buzby says go no further, Bookworm and Martin say go for the Penalty charges ?? Am I reading that right ?

[Bookworm]

Yep, that's it in a nutshell.

[echowitch]

Cheers, thought I'd just check as yours truly is ill and having to deal with a poorly 20 month old as well so Im feeling decidedly bleurgh right now. Plus the mother in law is ill as well and I have to take her to the Hospital for an Xray in an hour.

 

Righty ho, I'll check Martin's thread when I get back and on how to proceed later on.

[MARTIN3030]

And the charges will STILL be added in the future. SO even if your action was successful the victory is just a short-term one.

 

Further, as I pay my bills on time because of this, why should you be granted a dispensation to pay when it suits them?

 

 

Future charges can be claimed...... (good idea to do it in October ready for a Christmas payout)

Raymond-your payment of bills on time is of no consequence to those who are claiming back unlawful charges which they refuse to substantiate as being fair.

No one is asking for dispensation-certainly I did not see anyone asking ?

[buzby]

Because, like it or not, and you obviously don't, penalty charges are unlawful in this country.

 

Sometimes, the answer is that simple.

 

So it is - and with most of those people claiming it IS a penalty charge haven't a clue what the true legal defibrination of a 'penalty' is in this respect... I thankfully rest my case.

 

The closest I can see to a parallel argument - that all these 'harassing' telephone calls from debt collectors. What is one persons harassment, is another's justifiable attempts at getting paid for services rendered. In each being 'bothered' by callers can verge on harassment or even appear to be so, but does this make it an illegal harassment? Nope.

 

The same holds true of these 'penalty' charges - and forgive me for reactivating an earlier explanation that you chose to ignore, that in the commercial world, businesses can levy additional fees when their customer delays making a payment.

 

There, it is NOT a penalty - it is the law, so trying to treat these late payment fees as a penalty charge is fine, fool yourself if you must - but don't mislead others. It's THEIR money they'll be wasting, not yours.

 

Awaiting others to take their court action is both pragmatic and advisable, until there are clear indications supporting this stance. The fact VM has settled before court is no proof of victory - other firms may not, and since anyone can go back 6 years (5 in Scotland) what's the panic? Keep the paperwork, and bide your time. There's nothing to lose and everything to gain.

[echowitch]

Sorry Buzby but Im going to disagree with you. From what I have read and had shown to me as to the definition of what a Penalty Charge these Late Payment Fee's are a penalty charge. Especially as from what I recall I was charged a Late Payment Fee EVERY MONTH even when I paid on time as despite me paying on time by a method other than Direct Debit, they decided to add in their processing time which always made it late.

 

As to businesses levying fee's for late payment, or non-completed orders, those are predetermined charges/fees agreed by both parties in advance and under contract.

[buzby]

Disagree away - it is your money. The company has not been decietful in applying the charge, as it forms the basis of your contract with them, and they provided written notice to all of the impending charge last year.

 

As to your last paragraph - I'm afraid that's not what I'm talking about. And there is nothing 'pre-arranged' about it.

 

Late Payment of Commercial Debts (Interest) Act 1998 (c. 20)