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LTSB Default Notice - a query


thunderballs
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I know this is a subject that has been discussed a fair bit recently, but just looking for absolute confirmation from some expert opinion :-

 

LTSB sent me two default notices for loan and current accounts dated 27th April 2007 (this was a Friday).

 

The date specified to remedy is 17th May 2007 (Thursday).

 

My scenario is this – the next working day after the date specified is Monday 30th April 2007. Weekends aren't included or taken into account on DNs, are they?

 

The 17th is exactly the 14th working day after 27/04/2009.

 

I’m not sure if I received the notices on the Saturday or the Monday (I didn’t realise the documents’ importance at the time, otherwise I would have retained the envelopes).

 

Is it right that default notices are supposed to leave 14 clear working days? Also, on the current account notice - right after the amount they’ve cited - there is the phrase ‘plus interest which is accruing daily’ (their words, not mine). No amount or rate of interest is specified on either notice.

 

The first working day I could possibly have received the DNs would be the 30th April, which would mean that the default notice has already kicked in to day one as soon as it was delivered.

 

So, am I right in thinking that LTSB have shot themselves in the foot by at least one day? I'll post up each notice in the next couple of days, so's they can be properly dissected.

 

 

Many thanks for any help received.

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Made a typo on the deadline date - my daft fault. The deadline date specified is 15th May 2007 (Tuesday), sorry about that, but a genuine mistake.

 

BTW - the notices also say 'If the action required by this notice is taken before the date shown'. So, that reduces it by another three days. Any change in verdict?

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SAR's are a real sore point with me and LTSB.

 

However, looking through Notes Info (one of the items of info that LTSB did supply me with), I already have the SAR info you refer to - record of a letter sent first class on 30th April 2007.

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I know this is a subject that has been discussed a fair bit recently, but just looking for absolute confirmation from some expert opinion :-

 

LTSB sent me two default notices for loan and current accounts dated 27th April 2007 (this was a Friday).

 

The date specified to remedy is 17th May 2007 (Thursday).

 

My scenario is this – the next working day after the date specified is Monday 30th April 2007. Weekends aren't included or taken into account on DNs, are they?

 

The 17th is exactly the 14th working day after 27/04/2009.

 

I’m not sure if I received the notices on the Saturday or the Monday (I didn’t realise the documents’ importance at the time, otherwise I would have retained the envelopes).

 

Is it right that default notices are supposed to leave 14 clear working days? Also, on the current account notice - right after the amount they’ve cited - there is the phrase ‘plus interest which is accruing daily’ (their words, not mine). No amount or rate of interest is specified on either notice.

 

The first working day I could possibly have received the DNs would be the 30th April, which would mean that the default notice has already kicked in to day one as soon as it was delivered.

 

So, am I right in thinking that LTSB have shot themselves in the foot by at least one day? I'll post up each notice in the next couple of days, so's they can be properly dissected.

 

 

Many thanks for any help received.

 

i take it that reference to 2009 was a mistake

 

a DN dated 27 april 2007 SHOULD give you until 15th May to comply if sent 1st class and 17th is sent second class

 

that is not to say of course that they were actually posted on the 27th and a SAR might reveal the posting date

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sorry missed a point its 14 calender days not working days

 

1st class is deemed to be served by the second day after posting and 2nd class 4 days time starts the following day

 

i'm typing too fast ill say that again

 

1st class is deemed served two WORKING days after posting

2nd class 4 Working days after posting

 

the time allowed to rectify the default starts on the next day and is calender days not working days

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http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bear-garden/165941-photobucket-video-tutorial.html

This may help........it helped me :D

If it's not too late you could tell LTSB that they have failed to comply with your SAR because they haven't supplied details of default and termination notices, plus dates sent and proof/ method of postage.

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Hopefully, this'll work. Thanks for that, cymruambyth.

 

What was said in my second from last thread, were the details I have. It can only be those two letters (both DNs were sent in same envelope, from what I recall), and the date of Postage cited was 30th April (Monday) 2007, first class central.

 

 

 

 

Defaultnoticeoverdraftissued27thApr.jpg

 

 

 

 

Defaultnoticeloanissued27thApril200.jpg

Defaultnoticeloanissued27thApril200.jpg

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Only record shown on my SAR of any letter sent around that time is showing Standard Letter 30th April 2007 First Class Central.

 

Since 7th May 2007 was May Day, then that can't really be counted, right?

 

i need to check that out i know that bank hols are ignored for service but i am unsure if they are ignored in counting theh 14 days

 

i suspect not so you really need to sar them to try and uncover the posting date

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30th April. That's the only date it could have been sent, according to what information I have got. The SAR I've got says that's the only outgoing mail sent in that month, and it's the only correspondence I got from them that was sent in the month of April.

 

Also, is each Default Notice valid in every other way - are there any other irreperable faults I can pick with them?

 

I already know the overdraft one is invalid, because much of the amount they've specified is made up of charges.

 

However, looking for more ammunition I can use.

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30th April. That's the only date it could have been sent, according to what information I have got. The SAR I've got says that's the only outgoing mail sent in that month, and it's the only correspondence I got from them that was sent in the month of April.

 

Also, is each Default Notice valid in every other way - are there any other irreperable faults I can pick with them?

 

I already know the overdraft one is invalid, because much of the amount they've specified is made up of charges.

 

However, looking for more ammunition I can use.

 

This is prescribed text that should be included

 

 

 

(2) Any notice to be given by a creditor or owner in relation to a regulated agreement to a debtor or hirer under section 87(1) of the Act (which relates to the necessity to serve a default notice on the debtor or hirer in accordance with section 88 before taking certain action by reason of any breach of the agreement by the debtor or hirer) shall contain--

 

10A

A statement in the following form--

"This notice should include a copy of the current Office of Fair Trading information sheet on default. This contains important information about your rights and where to go for support and advice. If it is not included, you should contact us to get one."

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i need to check that out i know that bank hols are ignored for service but i am unsure if they are ignored in counting theh 14 days

 

i suspect not so you really need to sar them to try and uncover the posting date

 

upon checking it would appear that bank holidays ARE counted within the 14 days

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IF they sent the DNs via standard 1st class post on 30th April, then this would mean that the notice(s) would have been received (or 'served') on Wednesday 2nd May 2007.

Anyway, a couple of questions I'd like to get cleared up :-

1) If letters were received on 2nd May, then it is already into the first day of the prescribed 14 day deadline. Would this then mean that the full and clear 14 days has not been granted – because it was already into day one when the letter was received.

 

 

2) The letter also states if remedial action is not taken 'BEFORE THE DATE SHOWN'. This sentence is actually emphasised twice on each notice. So, this means that start of business on the 15th May can be understood as the starting point for which the ‘further action’ threatened in the letter would commence.

 

So, if I read it right, the 'further action' would already BE in progress even if the default sums were paid on the 15th! Is this to mean that the last day to redeem would actually be the 14th May?

 

3) Is the omission of the sentence as stated by diddydicky enough to render both Notices invalid?

 

I'm eternally grateful for any help received and I thank you all in advance. Dealing with this bank is like wading through a mass of contradictions!

Edited by thunderballs
Needed to be clearer
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IF they sent the DNs via standard 1st class post on 30th April, then this would mean that the notice(s) would have been received (or 'served') on Wednesday 2nd May 2007.

Anyway, a couple of questions I'd like to get cleared up :-

1) If letters were received on 2nd May, then it is already into the first day of the prescribed 14 day deadline. Would this then mean that the full and clear 14 days has not been granted – because it was already into day one when the letter was received.

 

 

2) The letter also states if remedial action is not taken 'BEFORE THE DATE SHOWN'. This sentence is actually emphasised twice on each notice. So, this means that start of business on the 15th May can be understood as the starting point for which the ‘further action’ threatened in the letter would commence.

 

So, if I read it right, the 'further action' would already BE in progress even if the default sums were paid on the 15th! Is this to mean that the last day to redeem would actually be the 14th May?

 

3) Is the omission of the sentence as stated by diddydicky enough to render both Notices invalid?

 

I'm eternally grateful for any help received and I thank you all in advance. Dealing with this bank is like wading through a mass of contradictions!

 

the ommission of the statement i mentioned was in order to ADD to a list of failures but on it's own i doubt if a judge would overrule the DN (but you never know)

 

the date given on the DN as the date by which you should comply is taken to mean by the end of that business day so if the deadline is say 15th May then the Termination can go ahead from the 16th- it would be a VERY foolish creditor who issued a termination letter on the same day as the time for remedy

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Sorry to keep hammering away at this subject, but I think LTSB-issued default notices would be of interest to (not to mention directly affect) many CAG regulars.

I’m a little bit confused here, because looking again through the notices, both are clearly in contradiction of themselves.

True, in the 'What do I need to do to correct this?' section, it does state 'by 15th May 2007. But, next paragraph down, and highlighted in bold, underlined and emphasised in capitals (twice over), it clearly states ‘BEFORE THE DATE SHOWN’.

This can only mean one of two things :-

1) That the intent of the letter is that the ‘emphasised section’ supersedes a previously used ‘un-emphasised’ sentence, which in this case, is the 'What Do I need to do' line (that sentence and the paragraph below it are clearly stating two different things).

 

 

2) That the notice has become ambiguous due to noticeable contradictions being present in its content. Wouldn’t this then mean that the notice has become ‘unclear’, thereby making it impossible for a court to validate the notice.

Saying that, I have also noticed at least one glaring contradiction on my original loan agreement as well.

 

I've just printed off the relevant legilsatory passages concerning default notices, and will have a detailed look through it in due course.

Also, aren't termination notices supposed to be giving notice before termination? I don't believe I ever got one of those, but I did receive a letter from LTSB after the termination stating the account had been shut down.

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Sorry to keep hammering away at this subject, but I think LTSB-issued default notices would be of interest to (not to mention directly affect) many CAG regulars.

I’m a little bit confused here, because looking again through the notices, both are clearly in contradiction of themselves.

True, in the 'What do I need to do to correct this?' section, it does state 'by 15th May 2007. But, next paragraph down, and highlighted in bold, underlined and emphasised in capitals (twice over), it clearly states ‘BEFORE THE DATE SHOWN’.

This can only mean one of two things :-

1) That the intent of the letter is that the ‘emphasised section’ supersedes a previously used ‘un-emphasised’ sentence, which in this case, is the 'What Do I need to do' line (that sentence and the paragraph below it are clearly stating two different things).

 

 

2) That the notice has become ambiguous due to noticeable contradictions being present in its content. Wouldn’t this then mean that the notice has become ‘unclear’, thereby making it impossible for a court to validate the notice.

Saying that, I have also noticed at least one glaring contradiction on my original loan agreement as well.

 

I've just printed off the relevant legilsatory passages concerning default notices, and will have a detailed look through it in due course.

Also, aren't termination notices supposed to be giving notice before termination? I don't believe I ever got one of those, but I did receive a letter from LTSB after the termination stating the account had been shut down.

 

it simply means "before the end of the date shown" that is if the date is the 15th then you have until close of business on the 15th

 

(could in reality mean 2359 hours - but after 5-5.30 there would be no one there to reecieve the money likely as not

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