Who has stopped paying anything and what have the consequences been?

[meerkatsmimm]

Hi Folks,

 

Im curious about this question, because even though most of my creditors have not been able to provide enforceable/signed Credit Agreements, I continue to make token payments to them in the hope it shows willing if I ever end up in court.

 

But I cant help feeling that we should stop paying some of these people as they have nothing and perhaps it would force them to show their hand and attempt to take us to court.

 

Having CCA'd them all, CPR route, most having had letters 1 and 2 very recently and also now having received most SAR responses, we have only had 3 responses with anything that looks like an agreement - one MBNA one, one egg one (although with incorrect terms) and one Ikano one.

 

This only makes up less than 20% of our overall debt, and yet we pay everybody (even those who havent agreed to the reduced payments) £1 per month for each account.

 

Should we stop paying BC and CAP 1 who refuse to accept reduced payments and continue to add interest and charges, plus threaten all sorts? Both have not provided anything other than modern T&C's and nothing with our signatures on them.

 

Are these kind of creditors likely to take us to court quicker if we do so, even if to date they dont accept what we have been paying them? Both are in the hands of their in-house DCA's at present.

 

Having been a member of CAG for several months now, we have read stories of other members who have not paid for years, and although they continue to get the odd hollow threat, they are well on their way to the debts being statute barred.

 

Especially with the thought that the SB limits are perhaps being reduced to 3 years in the near future, this seems significant to people like us who continue to try and pay, yet with no support from the creditors who refuse to set up an informal agreement, why should we pay them?

 

In respect of those who have been on informal payment agreements with their creditors, who has stopped making these payments, (be it £1 agreed between themselves and the creditor or the same amount or more on a DMP through payplan, CCCS etc) on the basis that the creditors admit they have no agreement or state they have been unable to provide - or those who simply ignore your requests? And again, what have been the consequences?

 

I hope this is of help to more than us who perhaps have similar questions after months of making such payments.

 

Thanks and your responses are appreciated as always,

 

meerkat x

[Deb T]

I am with you on this, I have paid my creditors every month for 5 years, not a missed payment in sight and yet they continue to hound me for more money each month.

 

Surely if they have no copies of the original signed credit agreement they are in no position to enforce/collect the debt? and if they took you to court surely the court would say the same? No original credit agreement by you signed no legal enforcement of the debt?

[cds]

Been disputing credit agreements for 12 months without paying a penny

just respond to any relevent letters when needed don't seem to be any closer to court.

 

cds

[meerkatsmimm]

Thanks for responding guys,

 

You see the common thing between both threads is that both members are being hounded, regardless of paying or not.

 

So my thoughts are dont pay them!

 

Tomorrow is the National DCA action day, and imagine the impact that we could cause to these DCA's should we all stopped paying the £1 or whatever.

 

Its very confusing because there rarely seems to be continuity from one case to another and thats down to failings in the systems of the debt collection industry and the credit industry as a whole.

 

Also a customer who disputes an account is rarely agreed with by the Creditors/DCA's, so that to adds to the confusion.

[surprise]

two and half years I haven't paid one for and thats because Lloyds passed it to AIC to collect without telling me and I had an horrendous phone call from AIC. I was paying Lloyds each month until this happened. Following advice from here I asked for a copy of the agreement and they have not been able to produce one. Lloyds have admitted they have no agreement but will still pursue the debt. It has now been passed to Robinson Way. Sent them a copy of Lloyds letter and they have returned it to Lloyds. So as far as I am concerned this is what I shall continue to do.

 

I treat these companies as they treat me!

[diamondgirl]

It's very hard to tell what will happen. Where I'm forced to work at the moment (following my redundancy) it appears quite a lot of clients who have been dealing with CL/GE are receiving a lot of CC papers. Most of these clients stopped payments when there was no CCA forthcoming. It's hard to say whats best. I personally have been paying a reduced rate to GE (I still say GE even through they are supposed to have sold it to Link - my post Link Financial - GE Money) CL/GE, Black Horse, Bank, Sainsburys and Crap 1 for over 12 months now.

 

Crap 1 have agreed to the payment for a further 12 months although they intend to send a DN in the next few days (I have CCAd them). No interest charges.

 

Sainsburys just adding interest to theirs, never acknowledged my reduced payments although no DN been given

 

CL/GE (Evans Card) accepted reduced payments and still no DN issued no Interest charges added.

 

Bank Loan reduced payments accepted, no DN issued, Interest charges removed.

 

Black Horse accepted reduced payments, no DN issued, Interest charges removed.

 

I do imagine that at some point they are all going to send to DCA especially now I've CCAd the lot as I am sure they probably don't have anything. Sainsburys in particular I will know if its a true copy as there was that many errors on the original one and it was taken out in store so it can only be an application.

 

I have now CCAd all but Black Horse and Bank because I know the agreements are enforceable as I have the original copy.

 

I do intend to go after the PPI eventually and any charges.

 

I personally am still at a loss as to whether stopping payment all together is a good thing or not as some people get hounded, some end up in court and some nothing happens to them.

 

DG

[meerkatsmimm]

Hi DG,

 

You see that has been my dilemma as well.

 

For the most part, my creditors have accepted my reduced offers each month, although some like MBNA still state they will sell this on shortly if we dont agree a higher repayment schedule. Well I cant afford the £1 per month, so should we offer less because we cant offer more!

 

That leaves us in a situation whereby we are going to get hounded, threatened with and probably taken to court anyways.

 

CAP 1 agreed to a reduced payment, then done a complete u-turn stating that since they issued me with a DN they could no longer do this. The reason why it took them 3 months from agreeing verbally on the phone and then denying it was due to them not knowing who I was or where I lived. To this date every letter from 'The Renshaw' still states my address doesnt match what they have on file - yet they continue to write to me with such personal information to what they believe isnt my address!! - CRAZY!

 

Barclaycard have sent nothing only T&C's, as with almost all of us. Every CPR letter we send gets a response back stating they have provided under S.78, and doesnt acknowledge the CPR request. We are now at the stage where we need to take them to court and the letters being now sent are final LBA giving them one more opportunity to provide these documents. Again, BC are the most hassle of all, simply will not agree a repayment plan of any kind unless its formally set up through the likes of the CCCS or payplan. Yet for those of us who just dont have the access for a DMP, we are cast out to sea - and they know that very well. Talk about adding to peoples suffering in the hope that we will maybe sell a kidney or one of our children to pay them!

 

So the do we or dont we situation sticks its head up every so often, and its a case of seeing what everyone else thinks is the best thing to do and I guess as with everything else on the forum, trying to gleen as much information as possible.

 

Its strange that so many of us seem to be a similar point with our creditors (especially with the CPR rules) and we are all moving tentatively forward together for the outcomes.

[Free Bird]

I've never understood why anyone gives in to dca threats. They are just that;threats. Their threats are not worth the paper they're printed on.

I have almost enough threat-o-grams to paper a very large wall!

I haven't paid a penny to anyone(3 c/cards,1 loan,1 overdraft)for almost 2 years. No money,you see!

All dca's know that they have no more power to make you pay than the neighbourhood cat.In fact,no dca is as intimidating my local cat!

I have told all dca's that I've received threats from,take me to court.Despite their threats to do so,not one of them has. Most probably,they never will.If they ever do,well,I aint got any money anyway. Nothing to lose.

Had a letter just last week,threatening to send a "doorstep collector". I sent them a photo of my doorstep,along with a pic of my 2 Rotties,told 'em to come prepared. I'm still waiting.

The whole dca "industry" is nothing but a joke. Well,it always makes me laugh anyway.

[diamondgirl]

Yes I know what you mean. It is a real shame that we can't all get together and take the lot to court and see how they like it and if they can weedel their way out of it.

 

I am although I hate the job trying to find out more info from them to see if they've come up with some miracel solution. I'm not telling anyone why I want to know things but most of the staff are extremely helpful. I imagine with all the rules and regs this company has we would all be in trouble if the boss found out.

 

Any info I obtain that is likely to be of any help I shall be posting up.

 

DG:)

[Kraken1]

Not sure how the limitation act amendments will affect stuff. I doubt that they will be retrospective, but who knows?

 

Its very confusing because there rarely seems to be continuity from one case to another and thats down to failings in the systems of the debt collection industry and the credit industry as a whole.

 

Agreed! I've seen folk I expect to be sued ignored and folk I wouldn't imagine in court in front of the bench.

 

I suspect that in many cases the dcas take this stuff as personally as consumers and this in part effects their decisions about who to sue. Having read some accounts of the problems some have had I cannot understand why the dcas are still pursuing cases when it surely must be losing them money to do so.

 

I suppose the message is to keep a low profile; be firm but reasonable and polite. It seems successful actions rely on dcas and creditors making mistakes and having oversights so you don't want to incentivise them to give your accounts undue attention.

[harrassed senior]

I personally have, prior to joining CAG a few months' ago, been dealing with many debts on my own. I like to think I am fairly intelligent and have always answered 'threatograms', honestly. For several years, we have played letter ping pong with them hardly ever actually reading my letters, but just sending the next letter in the chain.

 

Eventually I wrote to them asking if they would consider writing off the loans as there really was no likelyhood that I would ever be in a position to make any payments whatsoever. A couple of DCA's actually accepted and to date, these debts have not reappeared.

 

Many however, just continued writing and continuing their threats. I then found CAG and CCA'd the remainder and for the past few months I have been able to hold them all at bay as none have proved that they actually have the right to persue me.

 

If you cannot afford to pay, you can't and that was my honest answer to all of their letters. I was truely a can't pay not a won't pay. There are plenty of us out there, and as long as you keep letting these people make your life a misery by taking money you truely need to live, they will just keep on and on at you.

[bazaar]

Theres also another important point here, if they havent produced the correct paperwork to allow them to pursue you for a debt, then why pay anything?

by paying the small sums to them all, youre leaving the door ajar for them to pursue you way past the Statute Barred limits.

IMHO, its best to issue CCA etc, the ones that dont respond get bugger all, the ones that do, you pick apart.

If you get subsequent court threats etc. then deal with them as and when, pointing out your previous requests for correct paperwork.

If you cannot afford to pay, then in any event you lose a case, no court in the land will make you pay more than you can afford.

This will take the initiative away from the bloodsuckers at the DCA;'s.

They rely on naivety and scare tactics to achieve their aims.

[cashins]

I suspect that in many cases the dcas take this stuff as personally as consumers and this in part effects their decisions about who to sue.

 

I wonder about that as well as some of the cases pursued are just idiotic.

 

I am pretty sure that in some cases of plain harrasement, some low level monkey is just 'holding the button down' out of spite, when common sense would tell them to move on.

 

David

[jon888999]

Hi,

I had been struggling since 2005, to pay ever increasing amounts to my

alleged creditors, until Marlin/Mortimer Clarke drove me to this site. Since then I've CCA'D Egg, HBOS, CAPITAL ONE, Amex, MBNA & Abbey none of which have produced an Enforceable agreement. Just stick to your Guns. To be honest things are a lot quieter now, I very rarely get any payment demands, any that i do are quickly dealt with using the concerned and bemused letter and threatening counter claims for Charges PPI etc. If they still come back an e.mail to the OFT(copied to the DCA) seems to do the trick.

The only ones who seem to have total disregard for the LAW are HSBC/

Marlin/Phoenix/Mortimer Clarke, but there day will come soon.

Anyway nobody should be worried about stopping payments if a genuine dispute exists. In fact now I get more apologies for asking for payments in error, due to computer errors!LOL!

The only thing I say is keep the pressure on them so it looks like you are trying to resolve the dispute and be prepared to escalate complaints back to the original creditor, going straight to the Chief Executive. Make the DCA's dance to your tune. Not the Other way around.

 

Oh and my alleged debts amounted to approx £100k the only one i'm still paying is Abbey for an overdraft, which unfortunately only contains a very small amount of charges.

Remember the law is on your side.

 

Take Care

Jon

[Kraken1]

I am pretty sure that in some cases of plain harrasement, some low level monkey is just 'holding the button down' out of spite, when common sense would tell them to move on.

 

I was reading one members experiences with a dca and wondered if it went further than this - they are a significant member and I wondered if they were actually being targetted because of their posts and campaigning. I could see no other reason and the dcas actions were just plain weird based on the posted reports. That said it is a numbers game and if you get the wrong/right judge (depending on your perspective) then a judgement is possible even where the facts and law suggest otherwise. Maybe a dca feels it is worth the investment?

 

A senior member of the site losing to a dca would be quite a coup for them - novice posters would read the saga and think 'if they couldn't win, how can I?

 

Probably just paranoia on my part though.

 

 

 

To the OP - have you considered a DRO? Might it be suitable for you?

[Fred Bassett]

Currently, I'm not paying the following:

 

Halifax Credit Card

MBNA Credit Card

BoS Preference Account (Credit Card)

Morgan/Stanley/Goldfish/Cabot Credit Card

Lloyds TSB Credit Card

 

I am paying

 

Cahoot/Cabot Loan

Egg Loan

Egg Credit Card (but currently have a PPI claim against them)

RBS Credit Card

 

So far, I've had numerous threats from all of the ones I'm not paying and seen off about 10 different DCAs in the process. I haven't heard anything from any of them for at least 2 months and some for about 6 or 7, but I expect this will not last. I think MBNA are using Restons to take a lot of people to court at the moment and if this happens to me I will defend it because, to be honest, I've made this decision and now I will stick by it.

 

Fred

[jon888999]

Currently, I'm not paying the following:

 

Halifax Credit Card

MBNA Credit Card

BoS Preference Account (Credit Card)

Morgan/Stanley/Goldfish/Cabot Credit Card

Lloyds TSB Credit Card

 

I am paying

 

Cahoot/Cabot Loan

Egg Loan

Egg Credit Card (but currently have a PPI claim against them)

RBS Credit Card

 

So far, I've had numerous threats from all of the ones I'm not paying and seen off about 10 different DCAs in the process. I haven't heard anything from any of them for at least 2 months and some for about 6 or 7, but I expect this will not last. I think MBNA are using Restons to take a lot of people to court at the moment and if this happens to me I will defend it because, to be honest, I've made this decision and now I will stick by it.

 

Fred

Hi Fred, i've stopped payin egg as the account is in dispute because of PPI exceeding 70% of the alleged balance and the Approved limit issue. Egg keep writong saying they can't decide on the dispute and I can contact Fos if I want. Been ongoing for 4 months now. Not asked for any payments.

[Pinky69]

I haven't paid a sausage to anyone since April 2007 when AIC threatened me with court action if I didn't pay more. They didn't get another penny. I was on a DMP, came out of it and CCAd the lot.

 

RBS - 2 accounts - no agreements. They disappeared after passing them to 2 DCAs

 

Direct Line - passed it to one DCA then wrote it off - £15000 loan.

 

 

Cabot - 4 credit cards - wrote to me that they were deemed irrecoverable and that was the last I heard from them.

 

Co-operative Bank - no agreements. Tried to pass to a DCA which was sent packing with one letter. Haven't tried it on again since.

 

Capital One - gave up. Never passed it on. They don't know what day it is.

 

Bank of Scotland - passed to Capquest - don't make me laugh! Wrote off £7000.

 

All quiet on the Western Front. That'll teach them to make Pinky mad!

[Debtcontrol]

I haven't paid a sausage to anyone since April 2007 when AIC threatened me with court action if I didn't pay more. They didn't get another penny. I was on a DMP, came out of it and CCAd the lot.

 

RBS - 2 accounts - no agreements. They disappeared after passing them to 2 DCAs

 

Direct Line - passed it to one DCA then wrote it off - £15000 loan.

 

 

Cabot - 4 credit cards - wrote to me that they were deemed irrecoverable and that was the last I heard from them.

 

Co-operative Bank - no agreements. Tried to pass to a DCA which was sent packing with one letter. Haven't tried it on again since.

 

Capital One - gave up. Never passed it on. They don't know what day it is.

 

Bank of Scotland - passed to Capquest - don't make me laugh! Wrote off £7000.

 

All quiet on the Western Front. That'll teach them to make Pinky mad!

 

Man, I hope I have as much success as you!!!!

 

To the OP, I was a little dubious also when I stumbled across this site and thought, 'Jees, can I stop paying these DCA's?, they have me paying through their typical scare tactics'. Now I have wised up a little and I reckon with the help on here we can face up to them and not let them intimidate.

 

I wish you the very best of luck with whatever you choose.

[count orlok]

paying £17 a month to wards K over about 20 creditors, may be able to get a few more quid of through lack of agreements.

Edited June 23, 2009 by count orlok
spelling

[kurvaface]

Thanks to this site I stopped paying a DCA (Had hardly started really).......sent off the right letters.....and am now better off. Thank you very much;)

[willtheywontthey]

I am not currently paying:

 

RBS Mint aka Advanta)

RBS (aka Norwich Union aka Natwest aka whatever else they call themselves)

A+L (aka MBNA)

Capital one

HFC / Marbles

 

I presently have complaints with (useless) FOS on most of the above with regards to not communicating or phone calls (beat you Capital One!!!) or other general annoying things that i wanted to throw back at them for basically being pains in the derriere.

 

None of the above have provided anything near an enforceable cca. Some have sent dodgy defaults or terminated account without a default. So many issues I lose touch of the issues so many days. Two of those sent me a DCA for first time - got rid of them but now have a third so will see how that goes. Am complaining about DCAs also. Am sending them SARs also and CCA requests - even after they did a runner. I am now using Robbers way phrase to them.. 'problem will not go away nor be forgotten'!

Am sending regular emails to OFT for them to 'log' when DCAs or bank breach rules or regs (cag heps me find what these are and I am learning much faster). I am almost looking forward to Xmas so that I can reply to the many nice shiney and bright cards they send at the festive time. Also RBS have no CCA for one account (they deny this but it's an Advanta so fat chance they do have it).. Th other RBS card had even RBS state it was unenforceabel but they will hassle me anyhow. A+L said best copy they had was illegible but now they put heads in sand and stop answering my questions. IN fact most OCs stop answering questions. ... logical and deserving ones they just stop. They will either state final response go away or ignore your letters. Very frustrating.

 

Have won one case for telephone harassment calls (FOS) with capital one. This took 12+ months. I have an ongoing case with ICO about my SAR also with most of them. I have now got an adjudicator for most but really the FOS is very much full of opinions and well not much use to be honest.

 

Having stopped paying I get MUCH less letters / harassment and less often. I did buy truecall which is a blessing. I started filing my paperwork but time is such an issue. I also stopped checking Experian so no idea how bad credit reference file is but since stopping it seems many OCs and DCAs are thinking a bit more before writing. then again I am in the middle of the serious stage with most OCs starting to pass on my details to all and sundry without letting me know.

 

Ones I am paying (at moment)

 

cahoot (they do need a good spanking though!)

Barclaycard

 

 

I am now almost sane...... I used to struggle so much sending them all the minimum payment and this was just to pay interest rates basically - ones they had put up out of the blue.

 

I am always trying each and every day to keep up with situation I am in but circumstances do nto allow. I have now decided to get my life back and t give them hell although saying that I am in for one hell of a fight.

[meerkatsmimm]

Guys this is wonderful stuff, thanks for responding in such detail.

 

I suppose from my perspective as with most of us, its not about debt avoidance, its about sorting things out.

 

Having said that, we paid every penny we earned through selling our home and any savings to these people and most went on interest. Adding it up and for quite recent cards (going back to 2002 at the earliest) we must have paid over £80k. Its frightening, but in my head anyway they have had their piece of us, now its up to them to prove we owe anymore.

 

I resent the fact our home is on the line for charging orders, and thats not something i want to confuse this thread with, because we have discussed it before. Put simply, if we rented we would get threats but they would be hollow ones, and no Judge is going to grant a forthwith judgement against a person with no assets, so that too is wrong.

 

In a recent meeting with the Nationwide I made it clear that I believed it was unfair that this unsecured debt could be secured against properties we own, especially a persons principle home. In their defense, they explained that the NW for one, never seek to get an order for sale if they are granted a charging order. That I believe for many is quite important. In our case, our little girl remains our saviour as none of these creditors will be able to force our home to be sold until she is 18 or leaves home.

 

Getting back on track - I think kraken asked would a DRO be suitable for me?

 

It wouldnt because of the levels of debt we have plus also owning our own home, but thanks for suggesting it.

 

For what we have recieved that 'appears' enforceable, there still seems to be an 'out', due to legibility etc, so I think there will always be an arguement for putting accounts in dispute.

 

I think we will give this next round of letters ago tomorrow (Happy DCA day!) and see what reactions we get back, as many will be with regards PPI reclaims, which will firmly place the accounts in dispute. If we dont get direct answers from most (you know who you are BC and CAP 1!) I reckon it will be time to start the SB clock for us as well.

 

We dont want to draw undue attention to ourselves, but then we have this debt and the spotlight is on us anyway.

 

If only there was a way to protect our homes from these people, I reckon in 90% of the cases, those getting the most hassle are home owners, although thats only my opinion.

 

Should I send them a letter telling them my house cant be sold until my little girl is 18 and im stopping paying so what are they going to do about it?

 

meerkat x

[2Grumpy]

Nearly 2 years after Intrum Justica put up payments for a natwest credit card to a level that I couldn't afford & it was passed to AIC whose tactics drove me here. (Thank you AIC)

 

I currently have an illegible application form for a CCA & Triton sending a letter per month just to show that they are trying to do something.

[cashins]

If only there was a way to protect our homes from these people, I reckon in 90% of the cases, those getting the most hassle are home owners, although thats only my opinion.

 

 

Well, once you get beyond the general 'boil your head in oil' threats they all dish out, home owners are more vunerable.

 

Some DCA's, (sorry solicitors), specialise in targeting home owners and brag about their success in doing just that on their websites.

 

Weightmans - Debt recovery

 

Obviously the minimum goal is to obtain a charging order effectively turning an unsecured debt into a secured debt.

 

This means that:

 

The 'status' of the debt is improved, moving it up the scale of 'collectability' and as a side effect, increasing it's book and sale value.

 

The OC has more 'leverage' Having got a charging order, they are then in a position to try for a sale order.

 

David